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The detail still looks quite soft, particularly on the legs and faces.

It didn't look all that different from other companies miniatures I've got. The helmets, weapons, and armor seem to have nice sharp angles, but I guess I'll find out when they show up.

I've got two boxes on order, and when they come in I'll be sure to post some pictures alongside other stuff so people can get an idea of scale and detail. I don't have any paint though, so it'll be unpainted figs next to other unpainted ones. Sorry about that.

They seem to be great value for the money to me at least, but I'm going to hold off on heaping on praise until I've got plastic in my hands. One thing's for sure though, these guys are miles ahead of anything they made at WGF, for roughly the same cost. I've got some greatcoat troopers, and they look nowhere near as good as the pics for these guys do.

I'm probably going to get alot of hate going for this, but I just don't get why everyone loves the Storm Troopers so much. The only two reasons I can even dream up are that they are sold in bulk on the cheap and that you can use them instead of DKOK. But the issue is that the DKOK models look amazing and the Storm Troopers look meh at best. The Storm Troopers are to the DKOK as Catachan are to real jungle troopers. I've seen some good conversions with them, but out of the box, they are just not that impressive.

I agree with the dislike for the Storm-trooper models, I had a joke with my friends that if i managed to receive a unit for free i was going to paint them all up to look like they're wearing floral dresses.

I've purchased a single box of these Defiance marines as an experiment, i am a little skeptical though as no release date has been announced.

According to my confirmation E-mail my order should ship on the 17th January, i don't know if their E-mail message is just severely out of date or if they actually plan to start shipping early next year...

Mr Gutsy wrote:I've purchased a single box of these Defiance marines as an experiment, i am a little skeptical though as no release date has been announced.

According to my confirmation E-mail my order should ship on the 17th January, i don't know if their E-mail message is just severely out of date or if they actually plan to start shipping early next year...

It's severely out of date. There've been delays, more delays and even more delays. More damning in my mind is that DFG (or rather, their sub-contractor) doesn't seem to have come to the conclusion "Oh gak, we're 2+ months behind schedule on a product our client has already paid for! Perhaps we should do things more than once a fething week."

People like the storm troopers because some in the hobby like the gaming aspect more than the collecting or painting aspect and they give a good approximation that is functional.

I don't like them myself, but I can see the appeal they have to others. Hopefully the Defiance games will have even more appeal.

noneoftheabove0 wrote:I'm probably going to get alot of hate going for this, but I just don't get why everyone loves the Storm Troopers so much. The only two reasons I can even dream up are that they are sold in bulk on the cheap and that you can use them instead of DKOK. But the issue is that the DKOK models look amazing and the Storm Troopers look meh at best. The Storm Troopers are to the DKOK as Catachan are to real jungle troopers. I've seen some good conversions with them, but out of the box, they are just not that impressive.

The Wargames Factory ones? Your opinion is hardly a new one. Not many people like them; their poses are bad and their details are goopy. These guys look like a few steps up in the sculpting department, and their poses look good. Not GW levels here, but for the price I like what I see here.

AlexHolker wrote:

Mr Gutsy wrote:I've purchased a single box of these Defiance marines as an experiment, i am a little skeptical though as no release date has been announced.

According to my confirmation E-mail my order should ship on the 17th January, i don't know if their E-mail message is just severely out of date or if they actually plan to start shipping early next year...

It's severely out of date. There've been delays, more delays and even more delays. More damning in my mind is that DFG (or rather, their sub-contractor) doesn't seem to have come to the conclusion "Oh gak, we're 2+ months behind schedule on a product our client has already paid for! Perhaps we should do things more than once a fething week."

It probably has something to do with the fact that the tooling company actually has other clients too. It's not exactly like Tony et al can just pop into to the shop with a hammer and chisel and work on the mold themselves.

Xeno wrote:

It probably has something to do with the fact that the tooling company actually has other clients too. It's not exactly like Tony et al can just pop into to the shop with a hammer and chisel and work on the mold themselves.

True, but an unreasonable delay can mean a total termination of the contract. If Defiance really wanted to get the models out soon it would tell it's subcontractor it is terminating the agreement for undue delay. I don't know about you but if someone told me they were going to cancel the agreement I would want to make them happy ASAP.

I'm pretty sure Tony did have total control over the text on his website. You know, where he lists the figures as Here Now! and In Stock, and has since November or so.

CptJake wrote:I'm pretty sure Tony did have total control over the text on his website. You know, where he lists the figures as Here Now! and In Stock, and has since November or so.

Haven't we already gone through this 5,000 times?

-Richard

Nevermind, stopped caring.

AlexHolker wrote:

Mr Gutsy wrote:I've purchased a single box of these Defiance marines as an experiment, i am a little skeptical though as no release date has been announced.

According to my confirmation E-mail my order should ship on the 17th January, i don't know if their E-mail message is just severely out of date or if they actually plan to start shipping early next year...

It's severely out of date. There've been delays, more delays and even more delays. More damning in my mind is that DFG (or rather, their sub-contractor) doesn't seem to have come to the conclusion "Oh gak, we're 2+ months behind schedule on a product our client has already paid for! Perhaps we should do things more than once a fething week."

If what tony said on the forums is correct, they're already looking into other options for the next sets. Whether this just means different ways of doing the molds, or a whole new company, I'm not sure about. I know they've been talking about some sort of interlocking sprue thing that would let them make "bitz sprues" very easily on the cheap.

I actually talked to Tony about my order through their customer service portal thing, and they got back to me very quickly, as well as fixing an issue with my card and refunding a an accidental overcharge almost immediately. If they were trying to scam us or something, I doubt they'd go through the trouble to help me out with my order like that. So for all the guys worried about this being a "scam" I think we'll be fine. It legitimately seems to be a problem of the tooling company having to learn a completely new way of casting. I believe DFG could have handled the situation better (like not starting preorders until they'd already had working test shots of the mold) but it's too late now. It's a new company, stuff like this happens.

At this point, I'm just waiting for them to show up so I can put some together and see what I bought. I really want these guys to be good, as I'd love to support an American company that builds its stuff in the USA. Something about the Amurican in me hates buying British stuff for some reason Well... that, and trying to build a foot horde IG army when a single 10 man box of guardsmen is almost $30 dollars hahah

Xeno wrote:

CptJake wrote:I'm pretty sure Tony did have total control over the text on his website. You know, where he lists the figures as Here Now! and In Stock, and has since November or so.

Haven't we already gone through this 5,000 times?

-Richard

Hey, if Self Appointed PR Being rude to other members is a violation of Dakka rules. Evading the swear filter is also a violation of Dakka rules. -Mannahnin the can make excuses for Tony, I can point out areas he has direct control over and still flubbed up. Once he shows he can unscrew this mess and actually learn from the lessons and produce and deliver product maybe he'll get some slack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MrMoustaffa wrote: It's a new company, stuff like this happens.

Except even though Defiance is a new company, it is NOT Tony's first in the figure making business. Newbie mistakes are not as forgivable when the one making them is not a newbie.

oh yeah I keep forgetting that But a lot of those issues are (supposedly) that this is the first time the moldmakers have done something like this, and that they're learning as they go (as well as apparently being the most laid back company about delays to ever exist). DFG has been making stupid mistakes too (like using a company thats inexperienced and not being prepared for delays) Hopefully they've learned their lesson, and we won't have a fiasco like this again. It looks like this might be the case, as the bugs already have several test molds done and whatnot, but preorders haven't started yet. Maybe this time they'll wait until they know for sure minis are ready to come out before preorders start.

Other than that there's not much else to do. DFG either releases good minis, says "sorry we screwed up, but its not happening again", and nails every release afterwards on time. The other possibility is the minis are meh, delays keep happening, and they'll be gone in a matter of months. These marines will be my final impression on them, and whether I keep buying stuff from them in the future. Like I said earlier, I'll make sure to post pics so others will know what quality these guys are. that way others will be be able to tell if they're worth their time and money or not.

http://www.defiancegames.com/index.php/news/item/german-panzergrenadiers-preview

Thows are the germans? huh. Don't really look nearly as cool as their concept art....

Kinda a disappointment.

Lockark wrote:http://www.defiancegames.com/index.php/news/item/german-panzergrenadiers-preview

Thows are the germans? huh. Don't really look nearly as cool as their concept art....

Kinda a disappointment.

Picture is significantly outdated, the criticism was listened to, and the model altered, that was simply an early render.

CptJake wrote:Except even though Defiance is a new company, it is NOT Tony's first in the figure making business. Newbie mistakes are not as forgivable when the one making them is not a newbie.

Except that you're forgetting Defiance is a new company. They had to create their business structure from scratch, including finding someone to manufacture their product. Unfortunately, since they wanted to go with someone more-or-less local, that meant going with a company that had zero experience, which has resulted in over two months delay on the release (the original date, if you recall, was January 16th -- heck, it even says that on my order receipt from back in November!). Defiance has had to build up the infrastructure. They are now exploring other options, namely the new types of plastic being done by companies like Troll Forge and Avatars of War, but that didn't exist when Defiance started and contracted this company to do their mold.

This is manufacturing. It's not a smooth process. You just normally don't hear about the bumps in the road.

So, why again are they offering items for sale without any clear indication of items not being available? Their website even says the Marines are "In Stock".

As a business that crosses state lines, if someone were to be negatively affected from my state they could file suit under the state's consumer protection act which includes a maximum $10,000 fine per instance since they are offering something that they are incapable of producing.

Title 15, Section 751 of the state code allows suit for a number of offences including two that might be met here:
Advertising goods or services with intent not to sell them as advertised. (Buy Now! In Stock)
Advertising goods or services with intent not to supply reasonable expected public demand, unless the advertisement prominently discloses a limitation of quantity. (You have to go to the News section, no where on the splash page is it indicated that the items are not actually available).

I'm sure the owners are upstanding citizens and would refund anyone who asks but they could just avoid any confusion with a simple "disclosure" on the home page of their website indicating that the goods are not actually available for immediate sale.

I have created a thread on the official site with the purpose of collecting constructive feedback on the male USMC base kit here. If you have suggestions based on this first kit on how future kits could be improved (or how this kit could be improved by swapping out particular modules), please post there.

@Agnosto How dare you?

So still no minis for sale? SItting on peoples money? Nothing new then. People should start making some renders and selling preorders then close company and blame the chinese and open a new company and do the same thing... even if they ever release something in the future I just do not support this behaviour and looking at the actual lack of quality of the renders, sprues etc its quite easy to ignore them.

Xeno wrote:

CptJake wrote:Except even though Defiance is a new company, it is NOT Tony's first in the figure making business. Newbie mistakes are not as forgivable when the one making them is not a newbie.

Except that you're forgetting Defiance is a new company. They had to create their business structure from scratch, including finding someone to manufacture their product. Unfortunately, since they wanted to go with someone more-or-less local, that meant going with a company that had zero experience, which has resulted in over two months delay on the release (the original date, if you recall, was January 16th -- heck, it even says that on my order receipt from back in November!). Defiance has had to build up the infrastructure. They are now exploring other options, namely the new types of plastic being done by companies like Troll Forge and Avatars of War, but that didn't exist when Defiance started and contracted this company to do their mold.

This is manufacturing. It's not a smooth process. You just normally don't hear about the bumps in the road.

You also don't usually list an item as In Stock in your on line cart that isn't in stock. You also don't use phrases like "The Few The Proud ARE HERE" when in fact, they were not here. Unless Here refers to a special place in the imagination.

Sorry, Tony seems to follow the same business practices he always has. Again, once he produces something and shows he has learned from mistakes he may get some slack. Until then, you ought to consider highlighting the positives vice making excuses for the inexcusable, seeing as you are the Self Appointed PR Guru. You may also want to watch what you type as several of your quoted comments are inaccurate. The 'new types of plastic' did indeed exist when Defiance started. Defiance isn't building infrastructure (as in the machinery of the business), they contract out their work to those who own or own use of infrastructure.

And for the record, I did pre-order these to give Tony a second chance. He has proven to me, a paying customer, that was a mistake.

NAVARRO wrote:@Agnosto How dare you?

So still no minis for sale? SItting on peoples money? Nothing new then. People should start making some renders and selling preorders then close company and blame the chinese and open a new company and do the same thing... even if they ever release something in the future I just do not support this behaviour and looking at the actual lack of quality of the renders, sprues etc its quite easy to ignore them.

Don't want to get into this again, but that isn't at all what happened, models were produced, then the company was taken over.
I have seen the first few test mouldings of a marine, but at the moment they are not being shown off because it was simply a test cast, and isn't up to the scratch of an actual moulding. The final models are currently in the post I believe, to Tony.

Here, I'll just post this picture that I made when I was especially annoyed a couple weeks back:



Also, the complete e-mail (minus incriminating information, like my home address) that I received when ordering back in January.

Thank you for your pre-order for the USMC! We truly appreciate it!

The estimated ship date for your order is the week of January 16th - but we'll rush them out sooner if we're able!

Thanks again! Your order information is below. We'll send an email when your order ships!


You can track the progress of your orders on our web site via the link below:

http://defiancegames.com/index.php/shop#ecwid:mode=orders

Order Number: 317
Order Date: Jan 1, 2012 09:36 AM EST

==== Shipping Details ====

-- Ship to --

[redacted]

-- Shipping method --
$5.95 Flat Rate Shipping - Worldwide

==== Items ====

USMC Infantry
SKU DFG001
Weight 479.84oz

Quantity: 1
Price (each): $29.95


==== Order Totals ====

Items: $29.95
Shipping: $5.95
Tax: $0.00
TOTAL: $35.90

-- Payment method --

Credit card



-- Billing address --

[redacted]

Thank you once again for your order.

---
Defiance Games LLC
112 High Street

Charlestown, MA, 02129
United States
Phone 617-794-6229

Email: admin@defiancegames.com

I'll post a screen shot if you like.


Yes, I will agree that they need be a little clearer on this, but there's no deception.

Xeno wrote:Yes, I will agree that they need be a little clearer on this, but there's no deception.

Thanks for posting that. I never noticed the "Pre-Order!", probably because it's not "Prominently" displayed whereas the big green "In Stock" is.

Obviously my oversight and the fact there's a giant "ORDER NOW!" on the splash page with no mention of "Pre-order".

agnosto wrote:

Xeno wrote:Yes, I will agree that they need be a little clearer on this, but there's no deception.

Thanks for posting that. I never noticed the "Pre-Order!", probably because it's not "Prominently" displayed whereas the big green "In Stock" is.

Obviously my oversight and the fact there's a giant "ORDER NOW!" on the splash page with no mention of "Pre-order".

Add in the fact (yes FACT) that "In Stock" (right above the "add to bag button") and "Here Now" text has not changed, but the "pre-order and date" have over time.

But I'm sure that Mr Self Proclaimed PR guy will tell you how silly it is to assume that "In Stock" and "Here Now" mean anything, and that you should ignore the fact that the other text changes as Tony sees fit. You should ignore the text that says things like "Marines On Sale" (current on their home page as of the time of this post) and "Estimated to Ship In March!" (also current as of the time of this post though since it is 30 March and about 2100 east coast time Tony should have a decent idea as to if March is a reasonable estimate at this point or not).

It is all good.

Wanna make bets as to whether or not the "estimated to ship in March" text changes before the first week in April is over?

CptJake wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Xeno wrote:Yes, I will agree that they need be a little clearer on this, but there's no deception.

Thanks for posting that. I never noticed the "Pre-Order!", probably because it's not "Prominently" displayed whereas the big green "In Stock" is.

Obviously my oversight and the fact there's a giant "ORDER NOW!" on the splash page with no mention of "Pre-order".

Add in the fact (yes FACT) that "In Stock" (right above the "add to bag button") and "Here Now" text has not changed, but the "pre-order and date" have over time.

But I'm sure that Mr Self Proclaimed PR guy will tell you how silly it is to assume that "In Stock" and "Here Now" mean anything, and that you should ignore the fact that the other text changes as Tony sees fit. You should ignore the text that says things like "Marines On Sale" (current on their home page as of the time of this post) and "Estimated to Ship In March!" (also current as of the time of this post though since it is 30 March and about 2100 east coast time Tony should have a decent idea as to if March is a reasonable estimate at this point or not).

It is all good.

Wanna make bets as to whether or not the "estimated to ship in March" text changes before the first week in April is over?

That's just small details that you should ignore
There's such a huge truck load of BS in the companies these guys run that I believe its kind of a miracle that anyone still gives them any money upfront.

NAVARRO wrote:

CptJake wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Xeno wrote:Yes, I will agree that they need be a little clearer on this, but there's no deception.

Thanks for posting that. I never noticed the "Pre-Order!", probably because it's not "Prominently" displayed whereas the big green "In Stock" is.

Obviously my oversight and the fact there's a giant "ORDER NOW!" on the splash page with no mention of "Pre-order".

Add in the fact (yes FACT) that "In Stock" (right above the "add to bag button") and "Here Now" text has not changed, but the "pre-order and date" have over time.

But I'm sure that Mr Self Proclaimed PR guy will tell you how silly it is to assume that "In Stock" and "Here Now" mean anything, and that you should ignore the fact that the other text changes as Tony sees fit. You should ignore the text that says things like "Marines On Sale" (current on their home page as of the time of this post) and "Estimated to Ship In March!" (also current as of the time of this post though since it is 30 March and about 2100 east coast time Tony should have a decent idea as to if March is a reasonable estimate at this point or not).

It is all good.

Wanna make bets as to whether or not the "estimated to ship in March" text changes before the first week in April is over?

That's just small details that you should ignore
There's such a huge truck load of BS in the companies these guys run that I believe its kind of a miracle that anyone still gives them any money upfront.

Other than the late miniatures, which has been covered, and the minor thing in the pre-order page, which has also been covered, what else makes the up the contents of this truck? I'd love to know.

Also, thanks for bringing the Preorder page up, I'll be sure to tell Tony so it can be edited.

EDIT: Am I trying to write this with my face or something? Never have I seen so many typos.

Order now, we'll ship in January!

Order now, we'll ship in March!

Order now, we'll ship????

Not a very professional way to start a business; once bitten, twice shy I say. You can "cover" the wheretos and whys all you want but the fact is that the company has already missed two deadlines and has even stopped providing updates. Where is the promised update that was supposed to be "Next week" (dated 3/22)?

Tony is currently visiting some relatives with his children I believe, and will be back in a few days, but then, the test marine should have arrived, and some nice grey plastic can be shown off.