Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Fearspect wrote:In a discussion about the tournament worthiness of an army, I don't understand why you are bringing Stormravens and Land Raiders into the discussion as options.

Because they're viable unit options that have melta capability? Either way, doesn't detract from the point that they aren't exactly lacking melta access.

Fine, I will try to make it a little more clear for those that might be less vocal but also believe that those options are competitive in any form:

Grey Knights are lacking in melta options in forward moving units, considering this is an army that does not play that differently than any other mech one. Be it Troops or otherwise, the only option they have is in a trade to place in henchmen (AKA Codex: Coteaz), which negates the plethora of bonuses many are raving about in this thread.

It is those troop choices that move forward anyway to take objectives, and it makes for a much stronger option to pair that melta capability with that movement.

Lacking this ability, I actually think Grey Knights are short a few bonus abilities to make up for it. Have you ever witnessed them try to take down a true mech list (10-12+ vehicles)? It is a sorry showing armed with Psycannons and Psyflemen, regardless of numbers.

Fearspect wrote:Fine, I will try to make it a little more clear for those that might be less vocal but also believe that those options are competitive in any form:

They aren't competitive at all? That's new.

Grey Knights are lacking in melta options in forward moving units

Assault transports aren't forward moving units? Or did you just mean they don't have multiple melta access on power armored Troops units like SW, BA?

considering this is an army that does not play that differently than any other mech one. Be it Troops or otherwise, the only option they have is in a trade to place in henchmen (AKA Codex: Coteaz), which negates the plethora of bonuses many are raving about in this thread.

Not really, they can still take a good number of mechanized melta henchmen and still have slots left for tough assault troops, not to mention Elites/FA/Etc. Taking 4 melta henchmen units in chimeras leaves two FoC slots left for two GKSS/Terminator/Purifier/Paladin units if so desired for durability/assault troops, plus elites slots for more heavy hitting CC units. Taking 3 and 3 isn't bad either and still gives them plenty of everything.

Lacking this ability, I actually think Grey Knights are short a few bonus abilities to make up for it. Have you ever witnessed them try to take down a true mech list (10-12+ vehicles)? It is a sorry showing armed with Psycannons and Psyflemen, regardless of numbers.

Yes, I've seen it, no, they aren't that bad off by any means. Psyrifleman and psycannons do a wonderful job at smacking around AV10-12 vehicles, and coupled with hammerhand (or hammerhand+might of titan) assaults (against rear armor 10 on the vast majority of vehicles in this game) they really don't have the issues with vehicles that you are trying to portray. Especially as on Psybolt-Razorbacks (psycannons) and 4shot psycannons are roughly as good at dealing with AV10-11 tanks at any range and superior at dealing with just about anything outside 6".

I've seen Grey Knights cut up SW/IG/BA double-digit tank lists plenty of times, they're no worse of than those armies themselves.

You got me, I didn't realize I was being trolled until you tipped your hand with that last post.

Fearspect wrote:You got me, I didn't realize I was being trolled until you tipped your hand with that last post.

Well, I guess if arguing that not having meltaguns in every troops unit isn't by any means a crippling issue and pointing out they have decent melta access regardless and a huge array of other quite capable AT options to balance that out, I guess I am trolling.

Either that or I've made my point if that's the only response possible.

Present a list that won a recent national-level tournament containing a Land Raider or Stormraven. I think you'll find it a difficult exercise.

I agree with Fearspect that no melta on Troops choices is a hardship. Psycannons are a very good weapon, but they want you to keep 24" between you and your opponent. You can't really advance as aggressively as the other Imperial codices, because you're sentencing your vehicles to death if you do (since they're way better at killing vehicles than you are at very short range). So you wind up having to hold back until you're sure you've killed enough stuff.

If the game only goes to 5, you're not going to table a "quantity" type mech guard list, and it's been advancing the whole game, leaving you pinned back against your own board edge (or melta'd to death, pick your poison) by the end of turn 5. Even if you'd eventually psycannon everything to death, you kind of need the game to go to 7 or 8 to take midfield back. In NOVA-style events, you really need midfield.

I also think the Coteaz melta henchmen build is ultimately kind of misguided. IG use Chimeras to deliver squishy things with meltaguns, but IG have the option of fielding more than 6 scoring units, so you can sacrifice a couple to blow up tanks. I don't think GKs, who can only ever have 6 scoring units (modulo the expensive Grand Master, whom you'd have to take in addition to Coteaz), can afford to put Troops choices that die so easily in harm's way in the same way that IG can. I think it's a better idea to run two bare-bones Inquisitors with melta henchmen in Elites, so you can sacrifice them to halt an enemy advance without hurting yourself quite so much.

Also, relying on assault to kill vehicles is for chumps.

NeutronPoison wrote:
I agree with Fearspect that no melta on Troops choices is a hardship.

Seems to work for every army that isn't Space Marines, IG, or Sisters. They can still take solid dual-purpose tankbusting/anti-infantry weapons, it's not like they're going in there without any ranged AT, and it's about as good as you'll find outside of meltaguns. It's only an issue if you're too routinely used to using your troops units as point-blank range tank hunters. With psycannons, you've got very good mid-range AT that provides superior AT outside of 6" over the meltagun and double the total range, and that's almost as good against transports at point blank range if they didn't move, and still capable infantry based anti-transport guns at point blank range aside from meltaguns even if they did move. And on top of that they're great anti-infantry/anti-MC as well.

It is difficult to see the lack of melta as a "hardship" when they've got access to such great weaponry. Sure it's not as optimal as meltaguns at point blank ranges, but as a generalist AT weapon, it's hard to see where it's so inferior that the GK's are bearing some sort of burden as a result, especially it's high effectiveness at medium ranges.

Psycannons are a very good weapon, but they want you to keep 24" between you and your opponent. You can't really advance as aggressively as the other Imperial codices, because you're sentencing your vehicles to death if you do.

Why do you have to sit at 24 and not get any closer ever, and why are your vehicles somehow sentenced to death if they do where other armies aren't? Especially with Fortitude to keep them almost always moving and shooting as long as they haven't taken physical damage.

If the game only goes to 5, you're not going to table a "quantity" type mech guard list and it's been advancing the whole game

What sort of game type requires you to table opposing armies, especially in only 5 turns? As an IG player, I'm probably not going to advance against GK's until the last few turns and I've cleared enough of their killy stuff to matter, or unless they've left a flank completely open. Getting close means the tanks and infantry die. You'd be surprised how effective lots of S5/6 CC attacks+S9 hammers on top of psycannons and stormbolters are against side/rear armor 10 tanks.

leaving you pinned back against your own board edge (or melta'd to death, pick your poison) by the end of turn 5. Even if you'd eventually psycannon everything to death, you kind of need the game to go to 7 or 8 to take midfield back. In NOVA-style events, you really need midfield.

If an IG player is closing enough such that a GK player is being pushed against their board edge, it means they aren't being aggressive enough and are basically ceding battle initiative to the IG player to run amok as they please and not engaging properly. If the IG get that close, you dismount, move up, shoot everything you can with your infantry and tanks, and dive into assault, as you'll be hard pressed not to make it into something and fail to kill it.

If they are close enough for meltaguns to matter, then the GK player's Psycannons and autocannons have already had time to work and the IG are now likely in optimal assault range. Same goes for any other opponent and most MEQ armies don't enjoy being in assault range of dudes armed entirely with S5 power weapons.

I also think the Coteaz melta henchmen build is ultimately kind of misguided. IG use Chimeras to deliver squishy things with meltaguns, but IG have the option of fielding more than 6 scoring units

If they're running the much-maligned mechvets builds, usually they don't have more than 6, but yeah, the option is definitely there.

so you can sacrifice a couple to blow up tanks. I don't think GKs, who can only ever have 6 scoring units (modulo the expensive Grand Master, whom you'd have to take in addition to Coteaz), can afford to put Troops choices that die so easily in harm's way in the same way that IG can.

If they die and open up the way for the assault units to get through and clear a flank totally worth it. How many MEQ armies routinely run with 6 troops? A minority, razorspam yeah but aside from that rather few, and GK's often don't run with the full 6 troops without henchmen. Using some troops slots for henchmen isn't going to cripple their ability to take and hold objectives.

It's also not like GK units don't have Combat Squads as an option to help increase that scoring unit count.

I think it's a better idea to run two bare-bones Inquisitors with melta henchmen in Elites, so you can sacrifice them to halt an enemy advance without hurting yourself quite so much.

That can work just fine too, but again, only if you're going to actually take 6 squads of Grey Knights and don't want a Librarian or Grand Master or anything.

Also, relying on assault to kill vehicles is for chumps.

Multi-assaulting into a chimera line with 20 S6 attacks or a bunch of S5 attacks with a couple S9 hammers works wonders. I've been on the receiving end of it more than once, much to the detriment of several vehicles each time.


Either way, not having meltaguns in the power armor squads isn't a hardship or a major gameplay drawback that requires additional compensation elsewhere for the GK's by any means, any more than it is for Necrons, Dark Eldar, Orks, etc. and especially not with 2shot/4shot S7 rending guns and S9 hammers with S5 basic attacks.

Hammers are S10 with Hammerhand. The bonus is added before the multiplication, unlike "normal" modifiers such as furious charge.

NeutronPoison wrote:I agree with Fearspect that no melta on Troops choices is a hardship. Psycannons are a very good weapon, but they want you to keep 24" between you and your opponent. You can't really advance as aggressively as the other Imperial codices, because you're sentencing your vehicles to death if you do (since they're way better at killing vehicles than you are at very short range). So you wind up having to hold back until you're sure you've killed enough stuff.

Complete none-sense, I find grey knights are one of the more aggressive imperial codexs, especially against high armour save armies, I will happily take the fight straight to a BA or space wolf player, S5 power weapons are going to do far more than S4 chainswords in combat, think with grey knights is most of the units can perform two roles, they can be excellent shooting units and brilliant combat units (strikes are still ok in combat as long as they charge simply because of S5 power weapons).

If the game only goes to 5, you're not going to table a "quantity" type mech guard list, and it's been advancing the whole game, leaving you pinned back against your own board edge (or melta'd to death, pick your poison) by the end of turn 5. Even if you'd eventually psycannon everything to death, you kind of need the game to go to 7 or 8 to take midfield back. In NOVA-style events, you really need midfield.

Not being funny but who doesn't struggle against mech guard lists? DE? you don't need 7 turns, you just need to be able to take out the serious threats before you jump out of you rhinos, generally it isn't that hard if you use your rhinos as pill boxes, if your pinned back against your board edge your doing something wrong, its a mid range army, you want to be getting up close so you can take advantage of the dual role of GK units.

I also think the Coteaz melta henchmen build is ultimately kind of misguided. IG use Chimeras to deliver squishy things with meltaguns, but IG have the option of fielding more than 6 scoring units, so you can sacrifice a couple to blow up tanks. I don't think GKs, who can only ever have 6 scoring units (modulo the expensive Grand Master, whom you'd have to take in addition to Coteaz), can afford to put Troops choices that die so easily in harm's way in the same way that IG can. I think it's a better idea to run two bare-bones Inquisitors with melta henchmen in Elites, so you can sacrifice them to halt an enemy advance without hurting yourself quite so much.

That isn't the whole purpose of a Cortez style list, it has many different builds avaible, thing is GK don't generally need meltas, they have psycannons, I can't think of a single tank it cant pen, even a landraider is a 50% chance of a rending on average rolls with a pair of moving psycannons or a single stationary one (or on a termie), GM are a amazing tool for the points, his role simply isn't make extra units scoring, being able to outflank several units or giving scout to teleporting units is pretty damn amazing, a 30" charge is rather nice with greatsword wielding dreadknights. Outflank can allow you to get close to something that would otherwise be sitting at the back of the board, outflanking dreadnoughts are amusing for so many reasons.



Problem with grey knights is you have so many choices you have to avoid to keep people happy, Paladins, purifiers, riflemen just to name a few, psybolts are just plain broken on certain things.

NeutronPoison wrote:Present a list that won a recent national-level tournament containing a Land Raider or Stormraven. I think you'll find it a difficult exercise.

This is a ridiculous standard on which to base whether something is good or not. At the top levels, at the national tournaments, it isn't the quality of the lists that is making the difference, it is the quality of the generals, and games often come down to which player made one mistake. Blackmoor took his draigowing to Nova, and got 2nd place to a Space Wolf list. Reading his reports of the game, he admits to a couple of mistakes that cost him the game.

Based on your assertion that, in order to be good, you have to have won a national-level tournament, we can clearly conclude that draigowing armies aren't good, because it didn't win the event. Ridiculous.

Two things to remember;
1) tournament performance typically lags about a year behind codex release schedules. Why haven't we seen GK winning a ton of tournaments? Because that year isn't up yet. Because people have been playtesting, painting, and so on, last year, in order to field the army this year. We saw this with Space Wolves, with Guard, and any number of other books. Wait another year and you'll see tournament results to match.

2) I believe that evaluating the strength of a codex based on tournament wins is a waste. Good generals win with what they're comfortable with, and what meshes with their playstyle. And good generals win tournaments, not good lists. If you want to really evaluate the strength of a codex, ignore the top and bottom 10% of finishes (the best and the worst players), and see what lists are dominating the middle 80%. That's where you'll find lists overcoming play skill.

This whole idea that GK's having no power armour melta options being a huge disadvantage is laughable.

If Orks & Tyranids, or god forbid Daemons can win against 10+ vehicle armies and your GK's can't, then you're doing something very wrong. Those 3 armies are the absolute worst anti-vehicle armies in the game with bare-bones options, and we're still somehow killing those mech lists & IG parking lots.

Psycannons are the game's best anti-tank weapon when standing still or else in pairs on the move or on a terminator.

This arguement just smacks of a few GK players wanting every toy in the game and then some.

Psycannons are the game's best anti-tank weapon when standing still or else in pairs on the move or on a terminator.

In fact, psycannons are very good anti-tank weapons. Last week, in an RTT, I faced a Purifer army, with 30 Purifiers, 3 squads (combat squadded) with 4 psycannons each. Men, I was scared about them and the two teleporting DK's. In total, I lost 4 of my 6 Serpents in this game. At the every end, I won it (where he had 9 Purifiers left) but at a high blood toll.

NeutronPoison wrote:Present a list that won a recent national-level tournament containing a Land Raider or Stormraven. I think you'll find it a difficult exercise.

I agree with Fearspect that no melta on Troops choices is a hardship. Psycannons are a very good weapon, but they want you to keep 24" between you and your opponent. You can't really advance as aggressively as the other Imperial codices, because you're sentencing your vehicles to death if you do (since they're way better at killing vehicles than you are at very short range). So you wind up having to hold back until you're sure you've killed enough stuff.

If the game only goes to 5, you're not going to table a "quantity" type mech guard list, and it's been advancing the whole game, leaving you pinned back against your own board edge (or melta'd to death, pick your poison) by the end of turn 5. Even if you'd eventually psycannon everything to death, you kind of need the game to go to 7 or 8 to take midfield back. In NOVA-style events, you really need midfield.

I also think the Coteaz melta henchmen build is ultimately kind of misguided. IG use Chimeras to deliver squishy things with meltaguns, but IG have the option of fielding more than 6 scoring units, so you can sacrifice a couple to blow up tanks. I don't think GKs, who can only ever have 6 scoring units (modulo the expensive Grand Master, whom you'd have to take in addition to Coteaz), can afford to put Troops choices that die so easily in harm's way in the same way that IG can. I think it's a better idea to run two bare-bones Inquisitors with melta henchmen in Elites, so you can sacrifice them to halt an enemy advance without hurting yourself quite so much.

Also, relying on assault to kill vehicles is for chumps.

Wouldn't your definition of national-tournaments-only mean that only Adepticon, NOVA, and Wargamescon probably fit the bill? Plenty of others draw a fairly dispersed "national" audience, for example, Battle for Salvation, which is nova-styled and presents a lot of the same top "faces" that NOVA does.

Who won that this year again...

Neil Gilstrap...with two land raiders in his GK army?

Erm..

Experiment 626 wrote:This arguement just smacks of a few GK players wanting every toy in the game and then some.

This is pretty much why I have a psycannon on my venerable dreadnought (aside looking damn cool), its good at anti-tank and its good against troops, I mean multi-meltas are certainly nice to have but they just are not needed, you have a Redeemer and for 5pts its assault cannons become one of the best anti-tank weapons in the game, I find with multi-meltas on tanks (even the Raven) they tend to get blown off before they get close enough for the bonus dice, generally its the first weapon you pick.

targetawg wrote:Neil Gilstrap...with two land raiders in his GK army?

Erm..

I don't see the issue with them, marines are so common I just find a Redeemer a auto include, pretty handy for shifting marines out of cover trying to hold objectives and absorbing a crap load of anti-tank shoots that would otherwise be killing my Paladins, if it gets my deathstar across the table before it dies its done its job

Poll still shows GK as seen as a good codec by the majority.

Not sure how you got That from the results posted... targetawg, I saw your comment about the poll being decent earlier as well (although you pointed out it's hard to gauge public opinion), but it's really hard to believe these results point to "a good codec" when:

48% voted for overpowered (options 1 or 2)
29% voted for good or average (options 3 or 4)
24% voted for nonsense options (options 5 - 7... "No, just no" "Make this thread die" "Tomb King is the awesomez!")

If anything, the most conclusive thing you can draw from this is that about half of those responding chose to characterize it as overpowered, while the other half split between good and nonsense options pretty evenly. Like I said, I wouldn't put much stock in it for any conclusion... but if you're going to take away anything, I think that would have to be it. Certainly not that it is "seen as a good codec by the majority". The "majority" (which is only about half) voted for the overpowered options...

But I'd prefer just to throw it out, as with how vague it is there's really not much that can be taken away from it (in my opinion, of course).

Majority of the votes are for a good codex. It's pretty straightforward in my opinion.

If you mean majority = more than any other one option, then yes.

But if you stop to consider my points above, it's pretty obvious that that doesn't mean anything, for all the reasons explained in detail above. I won't keep trying to convince you, though- I think you have your mind made up already.

Keep in mind that you could pick more than one option as well, Ri.

I didn't know that... makes it even more impossible to draw a conclusion from it, though!

pretre wrote:Keep in mind that you could pick more than one option as well, Ri.

You made the poll options multiple choice. That means that it's impossible to determine any useful results. Each option that a single person chooses counts as a separate 'vote' when the numbers are displayed, so for all we know only about 40 people voted in your poll, and three of them clicked on ALL of your options. I can even tell you that the jump in recorded votes from 148 to 155 was me experimentally verifying that one person selecting all seven options shows up as seven different votes.

Your data is invalid.

Well at a minimum you can safely draw a conclusion that the poll has no bearing on Grey Knights overpowered. Too bad the poll had not been better constructed.

I still feel IG are more OP than grey knights.

juraigamer wrote:I still feel IG are more OP than grey knights.

not sure if serious

Wow given all the resistance on this topic I am surprised at the significant majority that voted for the over-powered results.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RiTides wrote:Also, the other votes may need to be thrown out entirely- as they were for options such as "No. Just no." and something about Tomb Kings...

lol ya apparently 11% of the time I am awesomez everytime. haha

You missed the point. The poll was added as an afterthought because Tomb King bugged me. I could care less if it is scientifically valid because this thread is far beyond ridiculous.

Anyways... If you want an 'accurate poll' start a new thread. Pretty sure I can't purge the results.

Well, one good thing that came out of this thread is that I actually considered putting Psycannons on my dreads... I think with having the close combat weapon and maybe a heavy flamer, using the summoning with them might not be a bad idea (espeically with teleport homer so you can summon and flame something-This also was a tempting tactic with the LRR with some Inscinerators inside).

So its safe to say that a large majority think Grey Knights are OP. Though it wouldnt hurt to have a more detailed poll for the main page or something.

mortetvie wrote:Well, one good thing that came out of this thread is that I actually considered putting Psycannons on my dreads... I think with having the close combat weapon and maybe a heavy flamer, using the summoning with them might not be a bad idea (espeically with teleport homer so you can summon and flame something-This also was a tempting tactic with the LRR with some Inscinerators inside).

Do it, its pretty cool, works very well on a venerable, redeemers with twin incinerators inside are also very nice, not much they can't kill also stops people moaning about psycannon spam.

juraigamer wrote:I still feel IG are more OP than grey knights.

Seconded.