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 5deadly wrote:
I'll go pledge Robotech then

Troll, troll,troll your boat....

 5deadly wrote:
One customer down... get a PR guy if you're prone to insults...however slight. "But random internet "experts" and arm chair advisors aren't of any particular use to me as all they provide is speculation and theories. "

One customer down and one customer up. I am impressed and perfectly happy with this response considering he did put it in a very nice way and since you have decided to gracefully bow out I am assuming you arent sending him any business models it has had the desired effect of getting one of the two preferred results of "Gimme some great info you can back up or please stop giving me advice based on your opinions."

I haven't bought anything from Paulson (though that Tau Allies proxie squad is looking good) but this sort of polite (even if you don't like what it means) is a great confidence boost that he is a decent guy who is not prone to disgusting rants like the Battlefoam dude. I try to buy from good dudes where possible so will keep my eyes open for these pretty mechs.


edit: forgot a quote mark.

I really like Paulsons. He does great work and has an eye for Quality.

Now having said that I don't expect this to be like DzC great but it will be great and I for one will back this WHOLEHEARTEDLY!

Actually I’m just taking your advice. You know what you told some other possible customer rigeld2.

 paulson games wrote:
If that is actually the case I would put your money into Robotech (as it closes this week). I simply can't rule out metal at this point.

You’re somewhat insulting to the opinions of what will be your customer base telling people to go pledge Robotech and calling people armchair experts…. It’s insulting man. You can’t see that then ok.

 paulson games wrote:
Troll, troll,troll your boat....

Me, I’m playing typical customer… you’re not playing typical CEO of a reliable company. I had nothing but positive words for you like a coach would. But you reply is somewhat well worded misplace hostility.
Good Idea as I said before. But I’m not going to give a guy like you a single buck. I could see having an issue and needing a refund or some other issues… I’m Ok with not supporting you.
I’ve see other companies doing KS project torn up for less.
Goodluck on your DIY garage project kickstarter.

--
and "One customer down and one customer up" does not make a good business model.

and before anyone tears me a new one... really go read Mr. Paulsons replies. "go pledge robotech then" and "But random internet "experts" and arm chair advisors aren't of any particular use to me as all they provide is speculation and theories."

it's not nice. not for a guy building a fan driven business... so before you give me the whomping just look at why I posted this.
I'm out

 5deadly wrote:

 paulson games wrote:
If you have some actual credentials in running an independent business, or you have work history within the plastics field I'd highly welcome any insights you might have. I've put in a lot of phone calls and face time with other business owners and people who have run successful kickstarters which has been a huge help. I always welcome help from anyone that has applicable industry experience and is willing to share that knowledge. But random internet "experts" and arm chair advisors aren't of any particular use to me as all they provide is speculation and theories.

Only one guy said Malifaux and Dreamforge...


this says I don't care what you think you simpleton, in slightly nicer wording

good job Mr. Paulson.

good luck with this project. I'll keep my nose out of it..., I'll go pledge Robotech then

One customer down... get a PR guy if you're prone to insults...however slight. "But random internet "experts" and arm chair advisors aren't of any particular use to me as all they provide is speculation and theories.
"

Hmmmmm I dont really see this as an insult. This is more of a warning. Did you not say that you have experience in the process? So does that not give you some work history? Maybe not for profits but none the less.

What I think Paulson did there was to get everyone who is trying to come up like an expert to stop. As many of you know Paulson has a GREAT work history and has always made great products (he might not return all your emails or messages but meh at best right.) I can tell just from observing some of the details that Paulson HAS revealed and some of his renders that he has looked at ALL viable options.

NOW onto the topic of plastic. Lets look at this realisticly. It was quoted to be upwards of $30k a sculpt right? Now that is a LOT to ask for. Someone said to do this as a stretch goal at around $128k for the KS right? This is not likely. At best that is 4 of Paulson's bigger models and as we have seen there are going to be a lot of parts to this.

Now I have NEVER been a fan of metal. I infact STILL hate metal Zoanthropes BUT Paulson is correct. He needs to get his feed FIRMLY into the ground FIRST. You do NOT build a house on sand, you need to pour the foundation first, which is what EVERY major wargame company out there has done. Each one has either thaken their own fork in the road to get them to what ever there are at now, from pure plastic to hybrid to ALL of our PERSONAL favorite Failcast!

Is there really anyone out there who can think that Paulson will make a bad game? I for one dont think so. I still remember his Robotech attempt and the TIME and EFFORT he put into that. So I for one know that this will be great.

I don't understand that response, Paulson... you asked us for thoughts on material, and people gave them... I personally think the most interesting thing is the aversion to "hybrid", so that gives useful feedback for how to market it ("resin with metal gun barrels / antenna" for example rather than "hybrid").

 RiTides wrote:
I don't understand that response

Basically the statement was "if it's metal I'll go support something else" which is fine by me. Not because i have hurt feelings but because I haven't made a concrete decisions on the final material. So rather than make a snap comment on materials that may or may not come to be I'd rather customers know upfront that I can't give an ironclad commitment to plastic or all resin. I'd rather tell those customers upfront so they can purchase a product they want even if it's not mine. Does that make sense?

What I'm trying to avoid is somebody passing on Robotech because they expect my product to be in plastic (or resin). If a customer is truly on the fence between two kickstarters and the ONLY determining factor is what material the models are made from then I can't can't in good faith tell them to wait around on mine as I don't have a final answer on that yet. Especially when that customers KS is closing.

Last thing I want is for that customer who absolutely hates metal to hang in thinking he's going to get pure resin or plastics then have a very bad reaction if I ultimately opt for metal, so I'm being straight forward and saying go with what you know for certain.

Ah, that makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying

For me, the look is more important than the material. I do tend to favor "all one" material for armies, but I'm almost never able to do it so I've mostly given up on that . The one exception that I have would be Dropzone Commander, which is all resin. (Edit: Nope, I lied, the infantry are metal!)

But everything else I have (40k, fantasy, hordes, brushfire) is a mix of plastic, resin, and metal models. I find benefits and drawbacks to each, with plastic being the easiest of course, but also the most limited in what models are available in it, for obvious reasons. Most of the cool ones are resin or metal

Has anyone talked to the 6mm plastics IGG or the Plastic Weapons Sprues KS guys?

If I needed another reason to like Paulson (which I didn't ) he just gave me one.

The guy said 'If you aren't doing plastic, i'm out'

Paulson said 'See ya'

I don't see the problem?

I actually felt insulted. I have a very solid idea of the process and cost. Then not being responded to by name. I’m the only one who mentioned Malifaux and Dreamforge. Then to get such a pompous reply was like really?

 paulson games wrote:
For the people quoting Malifaux and Dreamforge making the leap to plastics,

If you have some actual credentials in running an independent business, or you have work history within the plastics field I'd highly welcome any insights you might have. I've put in a lot of phone calls and face time with other business owners and people who have run successful kickstarters which has been a huge help. I always welcome help from anyone that has applicable industry experience and is willing to share that knowledge. But random internet "experts" and arm chair advisors aren't of any particular use to me as all they provide is speculation and theories.

However the underlying decisions I make in running my company are not up for debate. I strive to make the best product I that can within the means that I am able to. I think that strategy has done well to build my business and create a good name with my customers. Regardless of what material I ultimately use it will be done so that I can produce the best quality models possible while working within my production capacity.

Is this the way you’re going to respond to us “Arm Chair Experts”

 paulson games wrote:
However the underlying decisions I make in running my company are not up for debate.

Then why ask Us? No one’s debating with you Paulson… obviously you’re going to do things how you want regardless of what we say… so you’ll end up with a DP9/CAV fan base but even smaller cause you’re an unknown (yes you’re a very very small fish with a slightly bad attitude) full DIY garage heavy metal models that really is rapidly becoming a thing of the past. You act like you can't get solid Plastic sprues off a 45,000 goal... Some of us "Arm Chair Experts" Know what we're talking about despite not running a company, to assume we don't is to insult the intelligence of an entire community of people that thrive on Information, News, Rumors and Process…
You’re no more than a fan with tiny website and a spincaster get over yourself

Paulson: “I’m making a Kickstarter what should I make my product out of?”
Possible customers: “Plastic… please no metal we hate working with metal”
Possible customers: “Plastic, it can cost a little more but research it like I did you'll see it's worth it in the long run, you might gain a lot of fans”
Possible customers: “Resin would work to… maybe even with metal barrels and bits”
Paulson: “ None of that’s going to work, Quit trying to tell me how to make my “lil’ mens” Go buy Robotech if you don’t like my all metal line you armchair experts, No one tells me how to ruin my own company!!! This is not up for Debate!!!”

Good luck man… I gotta feeling you’re already sunk.

BTW Good back pedal with RiTides... save that face to sell that merch...

Not that I should feed trolls but lets take a look at this.

5deadly wrote:When people say they can't afford to plan a KS for plastic I say Dreamforge and Malifaux.
Malifaux is character driven skirmish game that is mid-level in popularity going all styrene plastic.

Dreamforge made some huge kits in styrene and over time will see a nice profit as will Wyrd.

Both started out with metal lines, while they are increasing their use of plastics the majority of Malifaux is still metal. Neither company did a straight shot into plastics, neitehr have the big boys like GW or Privateer. While you can always aim to shoot the moon, I prefer a more realistic vantage point that's based on proven company business models.

 5deadly wrote:

I have a solid grasp on what it takes to go plastic.I really do. It’s not that far out of reach with KS and with proper planing it could work out really well.

Care to share where your plastics industry knoweldege stems from? do you have any sort of proven industry experience at all. It doesn't look like it which is why I termed you as an arm chair advisor. You seem quite vocal yet don't actually back it up with anything useful.

Also I never stated that plastic wouldn't be feasible, but in doing so that it would invovle some delays and additional steps which would push back the launch of the kickstarter. As most people have been very vocal about seeing the game as soon as possible I wanted to ask if a later start due to plastic was an issue. A plan can be set in place but requires more time and it according changes my strategy on how to approach the kcikstarter. I'd like to see plastic happen as they are ideal for the game, but it may not be posisble at this point due to resources.

 5deadly wrote:

I'm seeing a lot of no metal votes and resin won't stand up to the tiny bits.

You can listen to the fans or just say "well their going to be metal so don't bother pledging" as was basically said above.

Or you can misread the statement and get all butt hurt.
It's not a case of "don't bother pledging" but rather if you are 100% against metal and only want plastic then that may not be somthing I can realistically fulfill and I want to state that upfront rather than lead people on.

 5deadly wrote:

Over the long haul you'll build a bigger fan base and have molds that last forever.

But what do I know....

I understand you're a small casting company with investments made in equipment and such I get it… but in the “end game” what do you really want to be? A GW aftermarket/ add-on company turned mediocre game company or “well I started with Home casting set-up but soon turned it into a AAA Wargame company” I’m sure you want to be the AAA company.

You can’t do both either man, you can’t be the 1 man show DIY AAA world wide supplier. Have more faith in your fantastic Idea Mr. Paulson. Figure out how much outsourcing the casting and production to China will cost and Go Big man.

Wow a metal game can only be mediocre? Somebody better tell Privateer they've been doing it wrong despite having the 2nd best moving miniatures game in the US. They started using only metal, 90% of their line is still metal yet they never made the big leagues, yeah ok.

I find it insulting that you suggest that simply by using metal I'd be stuck as "A GW aftermarket/ add-on company turned mediocre game company " Mighty high horse to be on considering you do what exactly in the gaming industry?

Not everyone has to be the AAA company, some people are content to run a mom and pop place and not manage a giant walmart. If I make a living on what I do and I'm happy with the game and the designs why would i feel the need to be the next Privateer or GW? There is plenty of room between the bottoms dregs of the gaming world and the top. You obviously seem to think that only the big dogs are capable of producing a game of worth, which is sad as some of the best stuff out there is coming from independant publishers.

Also what if not everyone wants to sell out to China, there are a lot of people out there that don't care for the poor business ethics and standards that seem to run rampant over there. I find it funny that you suggest the only way to go big is by outsourcing to China when the biggest boy (GW) has just pulled their base out of China. While in many areas it's a cost cutting device there's plenty of reasons and posisble concerns on why not to go with exported labor and industry.

You keep throwing the DIY idea around like it's a bad thing, wtf? Even GW started as a DIY company. Not that I'm claiming to know everything in the business but I am into my 5th year of business that I've built up by my own hand, that's more than what most start up companies manage and I've yet to see any indication that you have any experience doing the same. Where's you big industry busting game and track record?

 5deadly wrote:

I think you have a great idea here. I’ll pledge 150ish for plastics for sure. I’m afraid you quickly fall to the wayside being the Metal/Resin Home caster DIY company.

Again you seem awfully judgemental for a dude who doesn't have experience in the industry. There's a lot of games that start up DIY, it's pretty standard for the industry it's a shame you seem to have a problem with them, maybe with all your obvious genius you can show us exactly how we're all doing it wrong...

Moderator hat on....

Rather than circular arguments over who said what to whom, the intricacies of slights and offences taken, and progressing towards Dakka Rule number 1 being broken, can we please drag this back to actual discussion of the products promoted?

Yeah! Let's lighten up and talk about giant robots smashing things up again!

For what its worth, Paulson.

I have followed other companies through the Metal -> Resin -> Plastic transition, and am a more than capable modeler. If there has to be metal, bring it on.

Throwing my vote into the 'I don't care about material, chicks dig giant robots' category.

 Cyporiean wrote:
chicks dig giant robots' category.

I keep hearing about this elusive group, while I've only manged to witness the ocassional "chicks dig robots" member I'm quite certain we could all use more of this.

Since there's very few models needed for a game metal would be fine by me.

Since you have experience with resin, as I have other casts of yours, resin is fin and probably most preferred by me.

Since plastic tooling is expensive, and few models are needed for a game, I just don't see this as a good option. The return on investment would be really high.

As for a kick starter with a stretch goal to switch to plastic . If I put down money for a product, then it switches, I would hav to pull my pledge. I'd rather see the first ks get the game and models out there and develop a customer base, then go back in a future ks and go plastic for the mass market release later.

Edit: after all, who doesn't like to have the bragging rights of I have the original ______version of the model from when the game was released.

Paulson,

as much as I'd like to see a member of that group, I think the 'chicks dig (miniatures of) giant robots' category is so small, I've only seen 3 or 4 on my 45 year span on this planet.

However, as to material. I would be considering myself lucky if it could be what is generally termed, I believe, "Mixed Media". I.e. mainly a decent resin, with white metal .... "Spikey bits" that I can superglue on after the model has been painted and generally assembled so that I can minimise the danger of breaking them with my ham fists whilst I work on other bits of the model. If your budget stretches to photo-etched bits to increase the detail, I'll be in hog heaven.

Love the designs, looking forward to seeing them made real.

OK, yes, I'd prefer plastics, a la dreamforge, but would not want you to over stretch yourself and put your hard work at risk - you could pay £40,000 in tooling for plastics and leave yourself a whole lot of models to sell to break even. Just let us know you'll consider re-doing the models in plastic if/when you can afford it.

Gary. B. Eng (Hons) Polymer Engineering.

GBL wrote:
For what its worth, Paulson.

I have followed other companies through the Metal -> Resin -> Plastic transition, and am a more than capable modeler. If there has to be metal, bring it on.

I am with GBL on this one. Metal has its challenges which are mainly on the fact that they LOVEEEEE~~~~~~ to break at sometimes what feels like the lightest of taps. ON THE OTHER HAND, metal is fun to work with when customizing and building due to being said difficult. Yes you may have to take EXTRA care of things like pinning and such but to me, a player and a rabid lover of the "personal touch" (read: battle damage ^_^ ) this is a challenge I will HAPPILY take on!

Not a joke, I'm curious as to what brand of super glue you guys use?

For my stuff I typically use krazy glue brand and that stuff is amazing, I very rarely ever have issues with it letting go (even when I wish it would) I have 25 year old battletech guys that still have their original glue intact and I never pin stuff. I often had to hold the darn parts for like 15 minutes to get them to set up but once they were set it usually held for good.

I've found that the krazy glue gel version is no where near as good as the standard liquid. GW super glue has worked pretty poorly for me as well. Just wondering if the experiences vary based on the brands being used.


This is the verison I get, usually in the two pack as I go through a lot of it.
I also make sure to shake it before each use as it does settle which can result in a weaker bond (just triple check to make sure the cap is on)

I use gorilla brand super glue combined with green stuff.

If I'm rushed, zap-a-gap, doesn't hold as well, though.

 RiTides wrote:
I use gorilla brand super glue

Same, sans green stuff. works real good!

I use a combination of BSI's Insta-Flex+ and their Insta-Set accelerator, I never have issues with things breaking (for the most part). If it takes a tumble from the table, I've found the damn thing no matter the glue I use will almost always break. However this stuff I've found has been pretty solid and works well, the setting in seconds thing is also awesome .

As to the whole metal, plastic, resin debate. Paulson, I know I met you at AdeptiCon (I was the shorter bearded guy at the OTL booth), and while I don't have the massive experience with casting as others (namely yourself) do, I'd like to think that I'm a solid enough hobbyist that I could build and enjoy your models regardless of material.

With that said, I'd love a plastic/resin body with metal bits, mainly for the reasons Conrad Turner listed. In the end though as long as everything looks good, I wouldn't care if the thing was made out of playdoh

I see people sighting my move to plastic as an example, I can tell you that it was done at great risk, only AFTER I sold the models in metal and resin to make sure there was a sustainable market. The simple fact is that the KS did not pay for all of the tooling costs. I am fortunate enough to have strong sales into the supply chain to deal with the remaining costs over time, but there is no guarantees of success for myself or anyone.

Guys, take it easy on what you demand from Paulson. The game world is littered with the carcasses of companies that grew too fast and made huge investment before the market had proven itself.

Jon is a guy with a dream, some great concepts and ideas… Please allow him to do what he needs to do to grow the company in a manner that is not financial suicide. The man knows resin, he does it well and he knows if and where he needs to use metal parts for durability.

My only suggestion in this area is that if a KS sees amazing success, then he may find that it is cost effective to move to plastic. If the KS goes crazy and Jon pulls in 1mil+ then he may be looking at the issue of delivering 100,000 resin models. There is a tipping point where producing models in quantity by resin becomes unfeasible and the move to plastic is the only way to deliver. Jon must gauge the risks, and if he chooses, set a level where it makes sense for him. Demanding that he comes out of the gate in plastic is just unreasonable and a receipe for financial disaster.

As to the superglue question, I use Gorilla Superglue by brand… it has a rubber component that allows it to stretch a bit before breaking, but most often I use epoxy and I scratch the surface to provide a rough area to grip to.

Cheers!
Mark

I don't use any specific brand, just whatever is around when I'm at the store and remember I need it. Or if I get halfway home and realize I forgot to get it, I'll stop at home depot and get whatever is cheap. The kind I have at the moment is a generic brand with a label on it with the game shop's name and address.

I never really had too many issues with breakage, I pin things and I guess I'm just more careful with my army men

Necros,

This stuff?

Necros the "Generic" you are referring too is probably BSI. They are the trusted cyanoacrylate for most hobby shops. They sell their glues with a blank space on the front for the model shop to stamp their own name on. If you look on the back you'll see BSI or "Bob Smith Industries" in smaller letters.

I use BSI almost exclusively, but I have more than one formula based on requrements.

Instaflex+ is a great general use glue with just a touch of rubber so heavier models can flex a bit. I used to use Gorrilla "Impact Tough" ruberized, but now I mostly go with BSI as it seems to dry a bit faster.

I also usually keep a bottle of water thin "Instacure" on my workbench. It flows into cracks like nothing else and is great for reinforcing bonds or for bonds where the pieces are perfectly mated and have a large surface area. It bonds fast.

Of course that is for metal and resin. For most plastic (unless I want to disassemble later) I use Plastruct Plastic weld solvent glue. Brush applicator and water thin so it's no mess, no gooey, and absolutely permanent bonds.

As well as being cheaper-per-oz than almost any other superglue, BSI (and most hobby shops that carry BSI) also sells extra nozzles and caps so you never loose a bottle due to cloggage.

oh.. yeah, that's the stuff I usually use

I love the designs, whatever the material. I hope to see more soon.