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 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m saying if GW were as cheap as their lowest priced competitors, with their market dominance, how would smaller companies compete?

Consider Mantic, pretty much all they’ve got is being cheaper than GW. How cheap could Mantic go and still it be worth their while? Mantic used solely as a known manufacturer.

I think Mantic survives largely by doing Kickstarters.

And producing low quality product commensurate with the price:

Spoiler:

Nice to show off an ancient Mantic model that isn't made anymore. A bit like that dog thing of GW that someone will no doubt post soon. At least you didn't add in some worms suckling some KD breast :-)

Mad Doc still argues with the GW mentality that rules/figures still have to be officially from the same manufacturer. As far as Mantic are concerned, they're making some pretty decent stuff these days, but their main skill is producing good quality fun games.

We all know GW prices are pretty crazy - why else would threads like this spring up everytime the previous one is locked.

Some people here think that everybody wants GW minis. If GW prices would be lower there would be no market for something else.
I'm pretty sure there's a huge amount of people who detest GW design.
I find most of the 40k repulsive. Custodes, Death Guard and so on. Way over the top, too much bling. Shoulder pads the size of a wardrobe.



Mantic has hit and miss miniatures, there are some which are actually pretty good.

Another area competitors would still compete is in game design. GW's games may have improved, but compared to their competition their games are still awfully designed. I doubt someone who plays Bolt Action or Infinity and has little interest at all in Games Workshops products is going to go and pick up 40k or Age of Sigmar just because the price dropped.

Even if they did pick a GW game up, they wouldn't be giving them the complete attention from their hobby time that GW would be hoping for. Times have changed from the 90's where you played only their games because they were the only widely accessible games.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or we genuinely enjoy the product and games. Fancy that!

And you enjoy it at half the cost I do.

-Loki- wrote:

Spoiler:

Mario wrote:

Denny wrote:Does look good. I'm only basing this on my own experiences and could be wrong.
As a counterpoint though, can you show me a metal miniature with a cloak as thin as the Knight of Shrouds?
Plus . . . that's a small knife. Metal can do spikes/knives no problem. It struggles more with the longer thinner bits in IMO. But most of my metal models tend to be classics. Maybe that's the difference; I'm talking about the metals from back in the day, not these new fancy whippersnappers with their new fancy metal models.

Knight of Shroud, this one? Probably not because the miniature is just a cloak but if you don't care if the there's a body included and just want nicely sculpted fabric then some of these could work. From what I remember (these are over a decade old) some might be a bit thicker but more detailed (and those miniatures tend to be a bit smaller than GW's due to less exaggerated proportions) and Rackham was kinda famous for their slightly exaggerated fabrics. Their older sculpts were rathe chunky but they got use to sculpting differently and made some fine stuff near the end (most of the examples). I put a spoiler tag because nobody wants two dozen links at once.
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/cGF0aDpBbGNoZW1pc3RzIG9mIERpcnovU2NvcnBpb25OZXVyb21hbmNlci5qcGc=/?ref=
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http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/cGF0aDpBbGNoZW1pc3RzIG9mIERpcnovU2V0aGluLmpwZw==/?ref=
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/cGF0aDpBbGNoZW1pc3RzIG9mIERpcnovU3lraG9Wb2xlc3RlcnVzLmpwZw==/?ref=
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http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/cGF0aDpBbGNoZW1pc3RzIG9mIERpcnovVGhlSGVyZXNpYXJjaHNTcGF3bi5qcGc=/?ref=

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/cGF0aDpFbGZzIC0gQ3lud2FsbC9DeW53bGxBc2FkYXJzMS5qcGc=/?ref=
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http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/cGF0aDpFbGZzIC0gQ3lud2FsbC9DeW53YWxsS2hpZGFyeW1zLmpwZw==/?ref=
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http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/cGF0aDpFbGZzIC0gQ3lud2FsbC9TbGFubmtoaWRhcm1jaGFtcGlvbi5qcGc=/?ref=

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/cGF0aDpHcmlmZmlucyBvZiBBa2t5bGFubmllL0VzY2hlbGl1c3RoZUFyZGVudC5qcGc=/?ref=
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/cGF0aDpHcmlmZmlucyBvZiBBa2t5bGFubmllL0dyaWZmaW5GdXNpbGllcnNCb3guanBn/?ref=
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/cGF0aDpHcmlmZmlucyBvZiBBa2t5bGFubmllL1ByYWV0b3JpYW5HdWFyZC5qcGc=/?ref=
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/cGF0aDpHcmlmZmlucyBvZiBBa2t5bGFubmllL1RoZVRlbXBsYXJzb2ZIb2QuanBn/?ref=
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http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/cGF0aDpMaW9ucyBvZiBBbGFoYW4vUHl0aGlhb2ZBemwuanBn/?ref=
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http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/cGF0aDpVbmRlYWQgb2YgQWNoZXJvbi9Bc3VyYWRlU2FybGF0aC5qcGc=/?ref=
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That is not a photobucket premium account. Images won't load.

I didn't know that. Here's the site I got the links from: http://rackhamminiatures.yolasite.com/ Look a bit through the Alchemists of Dirz (some), Elfs - Cynwall (multiple), Griffins of Akkylannie (many), and Lions of Alahan (quite a few) galleries for some nice sculpted fabric. They have images from a lot of their range and the older stuff is rather chunky.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or we genuinely enjoy the product and games. Fancy that!

And you enjoy it at half the cost I do.

Last time I checked places where the prices are higher (AUS) the income is also higher (AUS)

 ph34r wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or we genuinely enjoy the product and games. Fancy that!

And you enjoy it at half the cost I do.

Last time I checked places where the prices are higher (AUS) the income is also higher (AUS)

Just run. I'll distract him with terrain and try and buy you some time.

 ph34r wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or we genuinely enjoy the product and games. Fancy that!

And you enjoy it at half the cost I do.

Last time I checked places where the prices are higher (AUS) the income is also higher (AUS)

Ah the old income argument.

I doubt the difference in income is as high as the price difference of minis.

The New Zealand salary must be stinking high.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


And producing low quality product commensurate with the price:

I like how you pulled a model from - quite literally (it's in the link LOL) - 2011.

Let's make this a fair fight, shall we?



That resin stomps the gak out of any finecast model. Mantic *CAN* sculpt well, and produce well, for being a company a fraction of the size. Their biggest problem is that they don't use the same sculptors for an entire line, nor can they seem to sort out some of their supply chain issues.

That's a cool looking lizard.

 Modock wrote:
Some people here think that everybody want GW minis. If GW prices would be lower there would be no market for something else.
I'm pretty sure there's a huge amount of people who detest GW design.
I find most of the 40k repulsive. Custodes, Death Guard and so on. Way over the top, too much bling. Shoulder pads the size of a wardrobe.

True, but there are just as many people that, for them, only GW models will work. I have one person in mind who doesn't seem to post around here anymore, I won't name them, but the first letter of their username was T (I'm sure Azreal13 and HBMC will recall exactly who I'm thinking of). T didn't care one bit about GW's prices, because GW produced the only product T wanted, and T only wanted GW product. It didn't matter how good another company's space marine was, because it wasn't a GW Space Marine™ (with the genuine GW exaggerated detail and proportions). It would be like someone who only bought Nike shoes, because no matter how much better other shoes might be, only Nike shoes would have the Nike Swoosh they wanted.

 -Loki- wrote:
Another area competitors would still compete is in game design. GW's games may have improved, but compared to their competition their games are still awfully designed. I doubt someone who plays Bolt Action or Infinity and has little interest at all in Games Workshops products is going to go and pick up 40k or Age of Sigmar just because the price dropped.

Even if they did pick a GW game up, they wouldn't be giving them the complete attention from their hobby time that GW would be hoping for. Times have changed from the 90's where you played only their games because they were the only widely accessible games.

I still sometimes believe GW has only themselves to blame for this. Would games like Infinity, Dropzone Commander, and others have flourished if GW had never abandoned Necromunda, Battlefleet Gothic, Epic, etc.?

 Modock wrote:
That's a cool looking lizard.

It was a pleasure to build and paint too. Basically no flash, no mold lines - resin is super light and strait as an arrow. Their other characters they did are of the same quality. If they can maintain that level of detail in their future works, then they'll attract a whole new fanbase.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I still sometimes believe GW has only themselves to blame for this. Would games like Infinity, Dropzone Commander, and others have flourished if GW had never abandoned Necromunda, Battlefleet Gothic, Epic, etc.?

They'd have been around certainly. Infinity was launched in 2005, well before GW's fall from grace. Malifaux was launched in 2009, and I don't recall GW being so badly regarded then either. But flourished? Not likely. I recall when starting both of these games that a lot of people moving over to them was due to wanting a Necromunda/Mordheim type experience.

The current state of the market is most definitely GW's, or more specifically, Kirbys doing. If they had run GW smarter with the types of releases they're doing now without the ridiculous price increases Kirby spent over a decade telling shareholders had to be done, I've got no doubt GW would still be the dominant fixture it was in the 90's and early 00's.

This debate is as old as the hills. Before there were Forums...Before there was Internet...back in the mists of time when computers were monstrous beasts that filled entire rooms...like, ya'know, 1990....

Nerds were sitting around in their FLGS b*tching about the price of GW minis and their general business practices.

It's all about perceived value, my friends. When the perceived value adversely impacts quarterly profits for an extended period, then they'll throw their customers a bone. GW is going to continue to pump out what they predict you will buy. (With the exception of Squats, apparently!)

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Modock wrote:
Some people here think that everybody want GW minis. If GW prices would be lower there would be no market for something else.
I'm pretty sure there's a huge amount of people who detest GW design.
I find most of the 40k repulsive. Custodes, Death Guard and so on. Way over the top, too much bling. Shoulder pads the size of a wardrobe.

True, but there are just as many people that, for them, only GW models will work. I have one person in mind who doesn't seem to post around here anymore, I won't name them, but the first letter of their username was T (I'm sure Azreal13 and HBMC will recall exactly who I'm thinking of). T didn't care one bit about GW's prices, because GW produced the only product T wanted, and T only wanted GW product. It didn't matter how good another company's space marine was, because it wasn't a GW Space Marine™ (with the genuine GW exaggerated detail and proportions). It would be like someone who only bought Nike shoes, because no matter how much better other shoes might be, only Nike shoes would have the Nike Swoosh they wanted.

 -Loki- wrote:
Another area competitors would still compete is in game design. GW's games may have improved, but compared to their competition their games are still awfully designed. I doubt someone who plays Bolt Action or Infinity and has little interest at all in Games Workshops products is going to go and pick up 40k or Age of Sigmar just because the price dropped.

Even if they did pick a GW game up, they wouldn't be giving them the complete attention from their hobby time that GW would be hoping for. Times have changed from the 90's where you played only their games because they were the only widely accessible games.

I still sometimes believe GW has only themselves to blame for this. Would games like Infinity, Dropzone Commander, and others have flourished if GW had never abandoned Necromunda, Battlefleet Gothic, Epic, etc.?

Infinity and Dropzone Commander are flourishing? Really? Not round these parts. I don't care how cheap Infinity models might be or how nice their sculpts are. They don't appeal to me and nobody seems to play it. I don't need more minis from defunct games in my basement.

The good news for the folks who hate GW is that they are not forced to buy their product. I am, however, free to choose based on my assessment of value and indeed I buy plenty of GW right now. I really enjoy building and playing the new Marines, and I am happy to pay $8CAD per mini. Paying $30 for the Dark Angels Lieutenant seemed steep, but I had to have the FLGS order it in since the first ones sold out. He's been in a dozen games thus far, so I feel I am getting my money's worth.

GW will charge what the market will bear. I do worry about price affecting folks entering the game, but I note some sets designed to mitigate that.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Infinity and Dropzone Commander are flourishing? Really? Not round these parts. I don't care how cheap Infinity models might be or how nice their sculpts are. They don't appeal to me and nobody seems to play it. I don't need more minis from defunct games in my basement.

As always, it depends on your region. In Australia, specifically Melbourne, Infinity and Malifaux are very big. Not GW big, but no one has ever (seriously at least) claimed GW isn't still a massive presence. Attributing your personal areas habits to the global or even national community is silly.

Australia recently held Cancon, our biggest annual convention. The 40k event had a 132 player capacity and the Age of Sigmar even had a 100 player capacity. The Infinity event had a 70 player capacity. If a game wasn't doing well, it wouldn't have that high a capacity. Malifaux isn't quite as popular, it had a 50 player capacity. Dropfleet and Dropzone commanders had 18 player events, so they're not doing as well in Australia. Batman had a higher capacity at 20 players.

Also worth bearing in mind, the Warmachine event had a 200 player capacity, which tells you 40k is not the dominant game in the Australian competitive community.

As of late, I must say I have come to really appreciate skirmish size games. Branching off I to new IPs has been fun, certainly not just a financial drive

 Denny wrote:
GW Black Knights are going to black knight themselves into the end of time.

It's okay fellas you can admit you are trapped in irrational hatred of other people enjoying products you think are over costed.

No one will blame you.

. . . Or, I dunno, we could try contributing something to the discussion and not employing irrational generalisation?

The black knight always triumphs!!! have at you!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 John Prins wrote:
At the end of the day, people who want to play tabletop miniatures games need opponents, and GW is the most widespread game available. This alone explains why GW is able to ratchet its prices up year on year.

Market dominance is bad for the market, but we're talking about a luxury product, so at the end of the day nobody starves to death because they can't afford a $40 CAD toy soldier. My advice to anyone getting into GW games is to buy older armies and learn to convert and proxy the more expensive stuff. Leave the new hawtness or competitive scene to those with deep pockets and buy second-hand after the meta has passed that stuff by.

Thats a local thing, here you will be hard pressed to find anyone to play anything GW with you,. but X-wing, MTG, pokemon Warmahordes,. guildball and a couple other weird looking games are all over the place.

Caveat: I did not read the preceding posts.

Regarding Games Workshop: I believe that GW product is fairly priced as a "value added" product. That is to say that you have to enjoy modelling AND participate in their game system for this to be true. From a pure modelling standpoint, their models are far too expensive. For a pure gamer who doesn't care about model quality... the cost of participating in their game system is too high. (Lower as of late due to well positioned starter products... but the overall cost of participating at an intermediate level is still high.) I honestly think that Games Workshop is doing the right thing with boxed games - Shadespire in particular. It provides a game system to "add value" to those who are daunted by the sheer scope in cost to customers who want to dabble in the system without the full-on investment. You get cool models, and an OK game system bolted on - so that you don't feel cheated for your money.

What are they doing right?
Great starter options
Great paint range
Awesome new models. Inspiring centerpiece kits
Stand alone games that act as lead-ins to their system

What are they doing wrong?
Centerpiece kits are IMHO unnecessarily large - leading to prices that are too high. IMHO - if the new super-huge character kits were 1/2 the size and 1/2 the price... I think you'd have collectors buying and painting them. There is a mental wall for those who are pure hobbyists, and the higher the price of the centerpiece kits, the less coolness can overcome the lack of value. IMHO, there's no reason for the Great Unclean One to be that big... He could be half the price and half the size...

Reaper: In terms of pure hobby value... You can NOT beat Reaper. You have Reaper metals for the budget conscious and Bones for the super-budget... Bones isn't all terrible either... The monsters are rendered nicely with their larger details and are very affordable. Need a dragon? GW charges you $100... Hit up Reaper for 1/4 of the price! Not center-piecey enough? Ma'al Drakar says hi:






IMHO, Privateer Press is doing all the wrong things that GW did for the last decade. Cost of entry is now high, model count is substantive, game play is overly complex. Warmahordes, once a lean and fast game system is now a horrible mess of too many SKUs. Their models have IMHO, jumped the shark and are actually decreasing in quality somewhat. IMHO, many recent models seem to alternate between festooned with overly chunky details, or festooned with overly shallow details. Paint range is still mint though.

Corvus Belli have a good thing going. They model quality is generally high, though I feel the new CAD line trooper suffer pose-wise from torso reuse. Pricing is a bit on the high side, but about equal to GW. The fact you need much less models makes impulse buying easier. The terrain needed to get full value by playing is daunting though.

Wyrd have wicked awesome models. Fiddly - yes. IMHO, their line-models and starter kits are all very attractively priced. Centerpiece models fall just slightly over the cusp of what I'd normally pay for just hobbying models (i.e. non game).

Kingdom Death: Pinups are expensive, but fun paint projects. Pretty much have the monopoly on THICC figures.

Red Republic Games: Arena Rex: Sculpts are awesome. Expensive... like GW expensive. I have some year 2 resins. Clean-up is horrendous. Casting quality is iffy. The Resin is also super flexible.

I worry the focus on 'whale' collectors is kneecapping the hobby's ability to grow and attract new, younger enthusiasts.

Like what's the ideal use case for attracting a kid on a budget to the hobby without directly grandfathering them in? Tell them to pick an army based on the rules they like and not the modern models they see on tables and in white dwarf, go on ebay and find a bulk bargain purchase of the oldest variant of that army's most basic unit they can find and then try to strip, convert, and repaint those into a current edition legal and effective force, then after spending probably over a hundred dollars and 12+ hours of work now they're ready for their first unsupervised game? And this is supposed to compete with the same luxury dollars that they could be throwing at video games or recreational drugs or fidget spinners?
Madness.

 Actinium wrote:
And this is supposed to compete with the same luxury dollars that they could be throwing at video games or recreational drugs or fidget spinners?
Madness.

This is GW's biggest issue with their buy in in Australia. For the cost of a 1500pt army, associated books, paints, brushes, etc, you can buy a console with a few packed in games and even add in a 32" 1080p TV for them to play it on so they don't hog your living room TV.

This is where skirmish games offer better. Shadespire is right in the pocket money price point for a warband. Siblings can easily pool their pocket money and buy the main game. It's right there with buying one of the Infinity starters plus a beyond set or the Malifaux starter plus a couple of crew boxes, though those require the addition of terrain. Even - Frostgrave. Rulebook, a couple of boxes of basic guys, a wizard blister each, and a few Reaper Bones monsters. Skirmish games are easy to buy into very cheap, and much more attractive for parents whose kids want to dip their toes in the hobby.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
At the end of the day, people who want to play tabletop miniatures games need opponents,

Or, they convert it to a boardgame by bringing a complete game with both sides. Totally feasible with things like Warmachine, Infinity, Guildball, etc.

Which isn't still going to quarantee opponents. And of course many skirmish games rely even more to lots of different opponents. Don't expect same 2 teams playing against each other in guildball is much more fun prospect than in blood bowl for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm sorry, are you actually suggesting that there wouldn't be a market for mini games if GW weren't so expensive? If GW had never existed then companies would simply be pricing their models against their costs and the competition just like they do already. If there's no profit in a product at a given price, and there's no demand for it at a higher one, then that product isn't viable. That's just business. However, as people are quite happily buying things from companies in this sector, and those companies are clearly making money, the suggestion that wargaming somehow needs GW to be expensive to exist is simply mental gymnastics. Like, gold medal level mental gymnastics.

But would many buy them if GW prices were similar level? Some competition quality isn't as good and of course smaller games run into issues of having less opponents. And alternative models for 40k etc are based on providing alternative models for cheaper. IF price is identical would they still sell as much? Especially as many players can't even use those due to non-GW models being banned. Seems like potential customer base would shrink a lot. Why buy not-space marine for 1£ if you can buy GW one for 1£ and be quaranteed to be able to use it everywhere? Quality would need to outpace GW model HUGELY to be worth it.

Large selling point for alternative models is being lot cheaper than GW. Take that away and...

Would they still sell? Yes but they would need to come up with something new as basically all buyers for GW games for account of price would vanish as a customers. Which is rather likely hefty amount of their customer base.

i will say this about gw, never buy their cases, the ard case is beyond a joke in price, you can get industrial cases for carrying heavy equipment cheaper than they want for their cases, no hitting their blunt two hander against the case is gonna make me pay double what i can with any supplier of good quality cases like below just buy typing industrial case.

https://www.jdindustrialsupply.com/b-w-outdoor-case-type-30.html

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Citadel-Ardcase

tneva82 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
At the end of the day, people who want to play tabletop miniatures games need opponents,

Or, they convert it to a boardgame by bringing a complete game with both sides. Totally feasible with things like Warmachine, Infinity, Guildball, etc.

Which isn't still going to quarantee opponents. And of course many skirmish games rely even more to lots of different opponents. Don't expect same 2 teams playing against each other in guildball is much more fun prospect than in blood bowl for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm sorry, are you actually suggesting that there wouldn't be a market for mini games if GW weren't so expensive? If GW had never existed then companies would simply be pricing their models against their costs and the competition just like they do already. If there's no profit in a product at a given price, and there's no demand for it at a higher one, then that product isn't viable. That's just business. However, as people are quite happily buying things from companies in this sector, and those companies are clearly making money, the suggestion that wargaming somehow needs GW to be expensive to exist is simply mental gymnastics. Like, gold medal level mental gymnastics.

But would many buy them if GW prices were similar level? Some competition quality isn't as good and of course smaller games run into issues of having less opponents. And alternative models for 40k etc are based on providing alternative models for cheaper. IF price is identical would they still sell as much? Especially as many players can't even use those due to non-GW models being banned. Seems like potential customer base would shrink a lot. Why buy not-space marine for 1£ if you can buy GW one for 1£ and be quaranteed to be able to use it everywhere? Quality would need to outpace GW model HUGELY to be worth it.

Large selling point for alternative models is being lot cheaper than GW. Take that away and...

Would they still sell? Yes but they would need to come up with something new as basically all buyers for GW games for account of price would vanish as a customers. Which is rather likely hefty amount of their customer base.

He gets it.

And remember, my original poser isn't an attempt to explain or justify GW's prices.


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 Gimgamgoo wrote:


Mad Doc still argues with the GW mentality that rules/figures still have to be officially from the same manufacturer. As far as Mantic are concerned, they're making some pretty decent stuff these days, but their main skill is producing good quality fun games.

We all know GW prices are pretty crazy - why else would threads like this spring up everytime the previous one is locked.

No I'm not?

I'm arguing quite the opposite here.

If GW's prices were lower, how much motivation would there be in the community to seek out cheaper alternative models to use in GW games. And what sort of 'still lower than GW' price points could other manufacturers offer and still make a viable profit.

It's a poser. Not a statement. Something for people to weigh in on.

And again, it's not any form of attempt to excuse/explain GW's own prices.

I was a long time GW player and collector, so I won't deny that I don't have wonderful memories of good times.

BUT

GW putting up their prices was one of the best things that ever happened to my involvement with the hobby.

It forced me to seek cheaper alternatives elsewhere, and as a result, I struck gold.

Osprey Wargames are damn good, and with the low miniature count for their skirmish games, you don't break the bank.

As I've said many a time before, Bolt Action is the game 40k should have been.

Because I play it in 1/72, it's even cheaper. The 1/72 market is high quality and ultra competitive.

For £9 I got a box of Italeri Germans. That gave me a Command option, a mortar team, an artillery spotter, and 3 ten man squads.

Add in cheap vehicles from Zvezda, PSC, or a dozen other companies, and you were getting a 500 point force for around £25

This is a golden age of mini wargaming, with money to be saved left, right, and centre.

GW? Pah, who needs them.

Perhaps people who don't care about historicals or smaller scales? It's not always about your own preferences you know.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Actinium wrote:
And this is supposed to compete with the same luxury dollars that they could be throwing at video games or recreational drugs or fidget spinners?
Madness.

This is GW's biggest issue with their buy in in Australia. For the cost of a 1500pt army, associated books, paints, brushes, etc, you can buy a console with a few packed in games and even add in a 32" 1080p TV for them to play it on so they don't hog your living room TV.

This is where skirmish games offer better. Shadespire is right in the pocket money price point for a warband. Siblings can easily pool their pocket money and buy the main game. It's right there with buying one of the Infinity starters plus a beyond set or the Malifaux starter plus a couple of crew boxes, though those require the addition of terrain. Even - Frostgrave. Rulebook, a couple of boxes of basic guys, a wizard blister each, and a few Reaper Bones monsters. Skirmish games are easy to buy into very cheap, and much more attractive for parents whose kids want to dip their toes in the hobby.

I agree that "entry" costs for GW are daunting, and I think/hope that GW recognizes this. The Dark Imperium Box set isn't cheap, but it does seem aimed at the Christmas/birthday present idea for a young teen from his parents/grandparents. The Know No Fear and First Strike sets seem specifically aimed at the younger/starting crowd. Not all games are 1500 point Matched Play affairs - there is dinner table gaming between fathers/sons and brothers/friends. The Fate of Konor campaign also seemed geared at getting new blood into the hobby through incremental steps. The "Easy to Build" sets also seem aimed at a younger player looking to expand his force for a little less cash and less modeling requirements. I guess we'll see how it works out and I hope that GW is able to keep thinking about attracting new people.

Having said that, as a military guy I am usually posted to a large base, and near almost all large military bases in Canada and the US you will find a good FLGS. Single Troopers/Corporals seem happy to lay $500 down and start a new army just like that! Once we get married we lose that flexibility/authority to spend (my wife would not be amused), but there it is. At our FLGS in Oct a young troop bought a whole 2,000 point Grey Knights army the day the codex came out and I was playing against his list that afternoon.

It's not just pure price point with GW. I have to feel that I get a value out of something. Sure, GW makes some fantastic models, but are we at the point where their self-proclaimed "premium" brand gains you more enjoyment of assembling/paintng/playing? I have been how they've started down the road of "look at our engineering prowess!" and making models that are *absurdly* finicky and hard to transport....just for the sake of showing they can do it/thwart piracy. It makes the act of actually transporting and using the model a pain. At some point, all the detail in the world is irrelevant if you're always looking at stuff from 5' away.


I balance the enjoyment vs. cost on anything. Mantic was brought up in this thread - yes, they are cheaper and yes, their quality is lower. For their intended purpose, rank and file use in KoW for example, they're great. The cheerleader effect comes into play when they are on their multibases and on the table. I don't buy them just because they're cheaper - I buy them because I like the model/fluff/whatever. Same with any other brand, you can find gems everywhere if you know where to look and have a scope in mind.

Sometimes you have to take a step back and ask yourself...if anyone else offered to sell you a single little plastic army man for 30 bucks, what would you say

He gets it.

No, neither of you get it, sadly.

What yore doing is proposing an alternate reality that includes a GW that act in an entirely different way to the GW we know, and then assuming all the competition would act the same way as they do now.

This wouldn't happen.

Neither did GW spring into being as the market leader with all the advantages that brings, the GW you're proposing would have had to make decisions based on selling models for £30 that real GW actually sells for £50 as it grew, which would have radically altered how it looks vs the GW we have.

Like someone already said, there's too many variables to give an answer, all you're really doing by asking is showing a lack of understanding as to how complex an ecosystem a competitive market can be.