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 Darth Bob wrote:

 Grey Knight Dillon wrote:
Although, Daemons are more of a threat than the Tyranids.

While I believe it's a conversation for another topic, that statement is incredibly debatable.

Continuing on from this, I saw it and figured there wasn't another thread for it, so here we are

Threat to who?
Threat to where?

Makes a small difference

 Exergy wrote:
Threat to who?
Threat to where?

Makes a small difference

The Imperium of Man xD

definitely Daemons in my mind. while tyranids are a very potent threat, they are only on the eastern fringe, so don't particularly pose a great threat to the imperium at large. there are also anti tyranid specialists like they swamp rats and the sythes of the emperor who know all the loopholes in a tyranid invasion.

daemons on the other hand are a much greater deal. isn't the fact that the chaos gods converted 2 thirds of the space marine legions to chaos enough to call them a bigger threat than the tyranids? they have many devious strategies, and only people like the grey knights can see through them. and, unlike a tyranid fleet, daemons can come back to the mortal realm, and currently the imperium has no way of permanently dealing with them.

ironic that we rely on daemons via the warp, and yet they are probably the greatest threat to the imperium.

GA

The mechanicus estimates that if the full tyranid swarm arrives, it'll force the Imperium to mobilize every single man, woman, and child just to stop it. Note, however, that that's just an in-universe estimate.

Without that estimate, Chaos has managed to ACTUALLY make the Imperium do its biggest mobilization since the Horus Heresy with the 13th Black Crusade. Chaos is also dubbed "The Arch Enemy" by the Imperium. However, this is Chaos as a whole, including the chaos marines and chaos cultists and rebels, not just daemons. Daemons by themselves are extremely limited with how much they can affect the material plane.


Long story short, the Tyranids are potentially more threatening than Chaos (as a whole, not just the daemons) if certain factors are met, but right now, Chaos is more threatening.

I would have thought the inexorable inflow of Hive Fleets would pose the greater threat.

It is difficult for daemons to manifest and even when they do it is not often in the same, system-wide, planet-munching wave of destruction that the Tyranids bring.

On the other hand daemons are timeless and can reach into any human mind in the right circumstances unlike Tyranids which can only attack what they can physically get into proximity with. And of course daemonic corruption can be largely unseen althought yoi could argue genestealer cults can operate equally clandestinely and herald a general Tyranid incursion.

I still think I would put my money on Tyranids but it's a pretty close call in fairness.

Oh yea, I imagine if Abaddon's plans of covering the galaxy in warp come true, daemons will probably be the most threatening force. Because at that point, they can ignore the laws of reality itself.

Of course, if things ever get to that point, the storyline's basically resolved. Abaddon's plan succeeding is the equivalent of you getting the "bad ending" game over in a videogame. So narrative-wise, there's a better chance of the Hive fleet arriving because that would at least allow the storyline to continue

Right now- Chaos

Later- Nids

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Threat to who?
Threat to where?

Makes a small difference

The Imperium of Man xD

The IoM, in 41st millenium.

Daemons hands down.
Things go poorly today in a few battles daemons could be pouring into the material plane tomorrow destroying the IoM quickly. The daemons are close and have their forces ready to deploy. Daemons snowball, when they start doing well, the psykic minds of mankind create more daemons.

The nids on the other hand are a few prongs of a larger invasion force. Their forces are slow and on the outskirts of the IoM. They can repurpose organic matter into new troops but it takes time to consume and grow new 'nid.

'nids also have limitations. They are a brunt force and there are questions as to whether they can penentrate the webway. Daemons can get anywhere, again very quickly if the warp tides are right.


Now in the future perhaps nids are the larger threat. The IoM has been keeping Daemons at bay for 10,000 years since big E took his nap, as stock brokers sometimes warn: "past performance is no guarantee of future results" but one would be reasonably that while daemons could spew forth tomorrow and conquer the galaxy, it probably wont happen. The snowballing will stop somewhere as Chaos fights amongst themselves or some particularly heroic deed exiles them back. In the future it is likely that more nids are going to show up, nids that adapt and are even better at attacking the milky way and the IoM. In the distant future they might constitute a bigger threat, but this is unknown. The IoM can also shift it's resources to more directly counter the 'nids. Other forces might come together to fight the 'nids and who knows in the future the Tau might just invent a "NIDSDIEv77mII" battle suit that kills all the nids effortlessly, you never know.

but right now, today in the 41st milenium. The IoM has more to worry about Daemons than they do about the 'Nids

They are very close, and excel in different aspects.

Daemons are much more mobile and far harder to see coming. With the nature of daemons and the warp, there's nothing saying that some guy couldn't rip open some hole in the warp and let a daemonic horde out right in the heart of the Imperium. They have the element of surprise and terror, because fighting them, it is not a case of "oh man, daemons are on the way, let's get ready", it is a case of "DEMONSARGHERH!" and your face gets hacked off or worse. Plus, the daemons can feed off of their own carnage, the longer a fight goes with them, the worse things get.

That said, daemons are not without weaknesses. While they can pop up anywhere, and once they get amped up they are very hard to stop, a daemonic incursion is 'brittle'. In that, I mean that they tend to have very centralized points of entry and leaders. Seal the warp rift and their juice is gone. Kill the leader daemon and their force begins to break apart and squabble.

On the other hand...

The Tyranids' strength comes not from being a shocking surprise that they are there (though Genestealer infestations help, but they aren't gonna topple the Imperium), but their strength comes from the fact that you see them coming and they are extremely hard to stop. Theirs is a slow, unstoppable force that really has no choice but to grind down over time and that is exactly the kind of fight that Tyranids are best at. They also have a huge advantage with the Shadow in the Warp, which isolates planets and hugely impacts psychic activity, which the Imperium relies heavily on for communication and navigation.

The Tyranids' weaknesses come from their slow movement (sub light speeds), which always means that, once detected, defenders can do a lot to prepare for them. Armies can be mobilized, defenses can be set and biomass-heavy planets can be burned in their path in a pinch to deny them resources.

They are both very big, but very different threats. A daemonic incursion is very much a sucker punch, you get hit and hit hard from an unexpected angle. A Tyranid invasion is the big guy who just slooooooowly comes your way and nothing you do really seems to slow him down.

In the end, I'd give Tranids a very, VERY small edge given their ability to isolate and destroy, and their greater ability to move between worlds. But this is a close thing. On a scale of 10 for danger, if Tyranids are a 9.5, Daemons are a 9.3.

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:
Right now- Chaos

Later- Nids

dam ninjaed
my post took too long to write

Chaos and the daemons are containable. The Imperium has been doing it for 10,000 years. The real problem is the relentless advance of an force that has nothing but consumption on its mind.

Daemons are way beyond the Tyranids as the great threat. They are beyond the minds of most human and xenos races. There is a reason why the Imperium does not let normal folks know about daemons. I would put Tyranids as the second greatest threat.

strybjorn Grimskull wrote:Right now- Chaos
Later- Nids

Damn, was just about to make the same comment.

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:
Right now- Chaos

Later- Nids

Right now - Chaos

Later - Chaos even more so

Conclusion - everything dies or falls under Chaos while Tyranid withdraws from the milky way, avoiding it like the plague.

"Later" is just a possibility. No one can say for sure what will happen "Later".

We know right NOW Chaos is, though. That's practically officially stated (13th Black Crusade caused the greatest mobilization of Imperial forces since the Horus Heresy.... which was also caused by Chaos).

In terms of "Later", however, there are at least three different possible scenarios:

Full hive fleet of Tyranids arrive. Mechanic estimates are this would require every man, woman, and chlld mobilized to fight it. Even Chaos never did THAT.

Abaddon sucks the entire galaxy into the warp (which is his stated plan). If he succeeds in that, I imagine the Necrons and Tyranids wouldn't have a chance.

All Necron tombworlds wake up: The Silent King believes that the Necrons uniting should/could be strong enough to beat the Tyranid full fleet arriving, so it's on about equal or greater billing as the Tyranids. ...if It happens, of course.


Alternatively, there's a fourth doomsday scenario of the Orks uniting (one which actually almost happened with The Beast). However, I'd personally rank that below the three listed above if only because the Necrons already beat the orks in the past. But hey, if the above three don't kill the Imperium, this fourth one could.



(things aren't HOPELESS for the Imperium. The Emperor could always wake up or all four of the above doomsday scenarios could hilariously CRASH INTO EACH OTHER, etc)

TiamatRoar wrote:


(things aren't HOPELESS for the Imperium. The Emperor could always wake up or all four of the above doomsday scenarios could hilariously CRASH INTO EACH OTHER, etc)

While the CWE help the DE open a webway portal into another galaxy and exit stage left.

 Exergy wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:


all four of the above doomsday scenarios hilariously CRASH INTO EACH OTHER,

While the CWE help the DE open a webway portal into another galaxy and exit stage left.

Agreed, the stage is set.

Tyranids are clearly the greater threat.

Even Chaos is not out looking for extinction of the human race. They merely want to enslave and turn it to their own ends. In their own ways, they need humans alive in some form. The Chaos gods need souls and worship and champions. No matter how debased, barbaric, or pitiful a state humanity is reduced to, they still need to keep the species going.

Other factions while perhaps capable of causing downfall of the Imperium, are not going to hunt down and extinguish every last human, all except for the Tyranids.

VampireDeLaVega wrote:

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:
Right now- Chaos

Later- Nids

Right now - Chaos

Later - Nids

Conclusion - everything dies and gets eaten by the nids.

Fixed that for you.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:


all four of the above doomsday scenarios hilariously CRASH INTO EACH OTHER,

While the CWE help the DE open a webway portal into another galaxy and exit stage left.

Agreed, the stage is set.

And the daemons will follow them. Is it written anywhere that the immaterium is limited to only the milky way? Anywhere the DE go, Slaanesh will be there at a minimum. He likes they way you die (or cavort about)

The Tyranids represent the end for the entire galaxy, Daemons need mortals to summon them, so on their own Daemons can't do anything.

New hive fleets are popping up everywhere and there is no indication that it will stop or even slow down. Advancing as a tidal wave of flesh that only grows more dangerous with each world lost to them by leaps and bounds. A single void whale fore
xample, would provide a galaxy's worth of flesh.

Meanwhile Chaos has factionwide ADHD and severe interfactional division and strife.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also anyone who says that the Tyranids move at sublight is stupid, the 5e book leaves no room for doubt, the Tyranids have faster than light via gravitational lasso made by Narvhals.

 Kain wrote:
The Tyranids represent the end for the entire galaxy, Daemons need mortals to summon them, so on their own Daemons can't do anything.

New hive fleets are popping up everywhere and there is no indication that it will stop or even slow down. Advancing as a tidal wave of flesh that only grows more dangerous with each world lost to them by leaps and bounds. A single void whale fore
xample, would provide a galaxy's worth of flesh.

Meanwhile Chaos has factionwide ADHD and severe interfactional division and strife.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also anyone who says that the Tyranids move at sublight is stupid, the 5e book leaves no room for doubt, the Tyranids have faster than light via gravitational lasso made by Narvhals.

Only for long trips. The same codex explains that once they get close to the prey world, they have to slow down to a comparatively slow speed.

Chaos. This is an inarguable point. It is directly stated that the hordes of Chaos are the Imperium's greatest threat, and if the Emperor dies, the Tyranids within the galaxy will be just as fethed as the Imperium.

Just gonna throw in my own opinion on the four possible doomsday scenarios..

[Full hive fleet of Tyranids arrive. Mechanic estimates are this would require every man, woman, and chlld mobilized to fight it.

Abaddon sucks the entire galaxy into the warp (which is his stated plan).

All Necron tombworlds wake up: The Silent King believes that the Necrons uniting should/could be strong enough to beat the Tyranid full fleet arriving, so it's on about equal or greater billing as the Tyranids.


Alternatively, there's a fourth doomsday scenario of the Orks uniting (one which actually almost happened with The Beast).

Well, I'd personally rank daemons as the greatest threat, because even though the theoretical tyranid invasion would be hard hard, and would require every man woman and child mobilising from the IoM, although I figure the tau and eldar would help out too, the tyranids can be killed, but you can't kill daemons, so I view that as the greater threat. For example, what would happen should a entire daemon invasion come through the Eye of Terror, so close to Terra itself? But, the daemons (and every other race in the galaxy for that matter), have one problem the tyranids don't, which is that they are divided into sometimes warring, sometimes allied factions, whereas the tyranids are united by the hive mind. Also, tyranids are made only to kill, whereas most other organisms design things to help them kill, eg Space Marine armour. Tyranids have no need for humans, they just want our biomass.

If Abbadon ever manages to suck the entire galaxy into the warp, the tyranids would have nothing left to invade, as they cannot use daemons, as they are not made of biomass. Also, he will have 4 gods on his side! However, he would probably keep some humans alive, in a enslaved state however.

If all the necron tomb worlds ever wake up, that could be a rather large threat, as it would be coming in all directions, at once, forcing the IoM to divide its forces. Also from what I know of the Necron codex, the tomb worlds constantly produce more necrons, so whatever you finally manage to kill, its parts are taken back, and rebuilt.

As for the scenario where the orks unite, its almost definitely not going to happen, unless we get a new, more powerful, Ghazgull figure, he did pretty well at uniting the orks.

I'd also like to throw a 5th scenario in. Perhaps the greatest threat to the IoM is the decline in tech. Everywhere evidence of this is seen, such as in the fluff for the Imperial Guard executioner tank, where it says that they can't make the cannon for that tank anymore. If I remember rightly, they can't make more space marines either, without removing the gene seed from dead battle brothers, or using some of their reserves. Slowly, the IoM is becoming less, rather than more, advanced, and may eventually become so weak in this way, any threat could topple them.

Just my personal veiws.

EDIT: Quote marks derped

Agree with

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:
Right now- Chaos

Later- Nids

And then once the Tyranids have moved on Chaos will still be there, kings of a lifeless galaxy dancing on the ashes ready to continue the great game.

Tyranids aren't just on the Eastern fringe. Leviathian popped up in the middle of the galaxy arriving from a direction out of the galactic plane.

The hivefleets seen already seem to be simple the vanguard of a much larger invasion, the Imperium is doomed from many sources. In the end i think it will come down to Necrons and Tyranids, with the Orks, Chaos and Imperium also right in the middle in a glorious apocalypse of violence in true 40k style. Chaos is a threat, to the Imperium as it could definitely lead to its fragmentation and collapse through daemonic incursion and lack of communication, but you have to remember the Orks and Necrons as well, Orks clearly have numbers, the ability and of course, their own gods to seriously contend on a galactic scale if they could ever stop fighting eachother for long enough. Chaos has the problem that it needs man to sustain its strength, since humanity is the biggest source of mortals, Orks seem to strengthen Gork and Mork with their violence and the Necrons and Tyranids are also detrimental to the strength of Chaos.

So long story short, in my opinion, the greatest threat to the Imperium as an entity could be Chaos in the more short term, as its true strength and ability is unpredictable. However the greatest threat to the Galaxy would have to be Nids' or Necrons, however a lot of the information we have about all the various sides does not give true description of the true strength of each faction. For example, we don't truly know the scale of the possible Necron forces. We also do not know the scale of the tyranid invasion, perhaps the first tendrils are just a tiny fraction of the true force, or maybe the tyranids are not as ridiculously numerous.

On the grand scale - NIDS / thread


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Agree with

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:
Right now- Chaos

Later- Nids

And then once the Tyranids have moved on Chaos will still be there, kings of a lifeless galaxy dancing on the ashes ready to continue the great game.

But significally weakened.....

Wasnt there a line in an IG Codex saying realistically the IG would have increase its numbers 500% to deal with oncoming Nid threats/numbers.

Thats taking current and active IG numbers across the entire Imperium and increasing it 500%. Those numbers are utterly staggering.

Whilst Daemons pose an inherent threat, fluff would indicate overall no numbers close to that as a response needed. (Queue Abaddons BC#13 jokes).

Have to go with Nids myself, unless the number of "prone" psykers in the Imperium increase exponentially over the next millenia.