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i have noticed that in most army builds that no one used helbrutes. i use them often and they always kill something good.

i run one with 2 power fists and sometimes i put a h. flamer on it or 2 combi bolters

the other one i run the multi melta or las cannon and a missle launcher on the other arm.

so why doesnt anyone else use them

Simple answer; because they are bad.

Crazed is the longer answer. If you build a shooty build, he might find himself unable to shoot. If you build a combat build, he may not be able to move toward combat.

Overall also, many units for roughly the same price vastly outweigh the paltry fire output of the Helbrute (Havoc and Preds are great examples), and the combat build will realistically never make combat since it has to slog across the table.

you cant beet 2 power fists that attack at int. 4. and can sweeping advance. and when i cc only a few models can hurt it.

p.s. 2 p.f. attacks at s10

How do you even get into cc with them?
I don´t even field loyal Dreadnaughts anymore because I feel they are too squishy and they have a better reputation than the chaos ones.

move with los in mind ( hinding behind cover) Then just move and charge. i make it to cc 70%+ of the time and when i dont i only lose 105pts. so something else more expensive doent get hit.

1. Unless you buy from Forge World, you only have the absolute abomination that GW call a model that's included in the DV set.

2. They're just...crap. You can't set up your Hellbrute to specialise in anything because the risk that he's never going to do it is too great. A guy above said 2x Power Fists for S10. Sounds fun, but you have Crazed, running across the board, avoiding return fire, and a mass of Grenade attacks before you can even attack, therefore the chances of you actually doing anything with it are much slimmer than what it's worth.

You dislike the model from the Dark Vengeance set? I think that thing's sick. I can understand disliking the whole 1 weapon loadout thing though, I hate not being able to WYSWYG with them.

Also, how would the grenades be attacking before the walker attacks? Walkers ignore the Unwieldy rule. And grenades strike at I1 in close combat, so he'd be hitting before that.

I used one once.

Crazed means that if it somehow survived a round of enemy shooting phase then something good (66%, roughly) or bad (33%, unless close enough to prevent the forced run) will happen for it.

yup he hits at I4. and it makes it to cc more than you think. play it smart and like its expendable.

Afaik Only meltabombs are unwieldy, Krak grenades are used at regular ini.

has anyone who dislikes it every used it???

or just quoting previous threads...

I used mine in many games before shelving it. I couldn't justify even 100 points being used on it or it taking up a precious elite slot when they could go to something else.

Sorry but who has used them is irrelevant. Also saying that they get into combat more than you think just because you manage to do it doesn't make it statistically likely either. Who is to say you don't have bad opponents, and/or they use bad lists, and/or you roll super hot for invuls. and IWND? Anecdotal evidence has no context so is worth nothing.

The Brute moves 6" plus average 3-4" run. That means it will take him 3 turns on average to get into combat. Three damage results is also what it takes to kill him, or statistically cause him to become temporarily immobilized if he manages to heal a HP from IWND. If an army can't kill an AV12 vehicle in three turns, it is a bad army, fact.

Also your solution to run him behind LOS blocking terrain is counter intuiative for the most part, as unless such terrain is conveniently lined up for you, you are going to have to slow your advance to make it to it.

And let's say your dual PF guy gets into combat. Great. With WS3 he hits just about everything on a 4+, so 2 hits, and kills 2 guys.

So in other words, you are paying 105pts for a model that needs to hinder its role to survive, has a 33% chance of not being able to do what it wants for every hull point of damage it takes, and only kills 2 guys on average in the unlikely chance you get there.

Yes, 105pts matter in 40k, a lot.

its almost as bad as the ork's Deff Dredd - AV12 walking at infantry speed is not that hard to deal with. I say almost because atleast it has an invul save.

No idea how you are getting that thing into combat with anything that didnt DS right next to it for some reason. Any player worth their points will know that thing is a huge threat if it gets to them but they got 2-3 turns to get rid of it before it even attempts to hurt them.

My friend gave his to me because he had 0 intentions to use it. He just handed the sprues over and said "Do something orky" so i turned it into a mutated ork Deffdredd countas lol. He ended up giving me another but i havent kitbashed it yet.

he has ws4 and it wont take 3 turns unless no one moves toward you as well.

does it take you 3 turns to get a space marine into combat when running.

av12 also mean now to stop it from getting into cc you have to devote a s6+ weapon to stop it. that means its not shooting at a rhino, predator/vindicator, defiler/forgefiend, or those pesky plasma cannons at your group of troops.

and a blast will miss with 2" in any direction

I can see where he is coming from, but I think it may depend on your list. If you build a solid army and have 100 points leftover, thats not quite enough to put in another allstar choice.

So you fill it in with a hellbrute. Also, because they are so notorious for being bad, they probably arent much of a high priority target so people will probably just shoot at what they know is dangerous, like a rhino with CSMs and a lord in it. or a vindicator.

And like he said, if they do shoot at the helbrute for 3 turns, then by god, he has definitely earned his points. a 100 point unit to draw enemy fire away from scoring units and pie plates? Sounds good to me.

Hellbrute is worth considering for armour saturation when you're already running a lot of via rhinos, preds etc. Outside of that, it's not terribly efficient for its points but it's not horrible. I also don't mind the model, unlike the dinobots ; p

Oh yea thats how i feel with my Kannon batteries, "You just shot at my 60pt unit with how many big toys instead of my bikes? cool!"

Thing about anything with an armor value is its not that hard to pop it instantly. It has an invul save, not eternal warrior. Every time ive fielded a Deffdredd for the heck of it a random lascannon..a SINGLE lascannon...pops it and with a KFF theyre just as durable as hellbrutes (barring ignores cover)

I had one get into cc with belial and since he's fearless, has no grenades and had no hammer it was fun to watch them hang out until belial failed an invulnerable save and was smooshed. That was fun. It also doesn't mean that it will ever happen again or that helbrutes are good. They'll get owned by riptides, wraith knights and most any other mc. They can be one shot and are not an efficient way to get guns. Until they become an MC they will be crappy.

They're not helldrakes, therefore they're complete and total crap to most people.

In all seriousness, there are two real problems (other than the hideous model) with it.

1.) It's cheap. Normally this is a good thing, but not for CSM. CSM works best when you pile on a big old stack of special rules that makes the sticker price high, but is actually an efficient way of getting upgrades.

A lascannon and missile launcher hellbrute is cheaper and does more damage than an autocannon forgefiend, but the forgefiend gets a 5++, it will not die, demonforge, fear, and fleet.The extra price you pay for all of those special rules is more than worth it for what you get. Meanwhile, the hellbrute has exactly zero of those special rules, and no way to get them either.

They're cheap and disposable in a codex that doesn't do cheap and disposable.

2.) They're an elites choice. Most people don't like elites choices because they don't understand them. They pay more for less killing power, but they get more strategic options. Yes, they don't put down as much killing power as havocs, but havocs don't get to powerfist things in close combat. Yes, they're not crazy fast and punchy like maulerfiends, but they get a power fist AND a twin-linked lascannon (or whatever).

Mono-purpose things are generally better than versatile things, but that doesn't mean that versatility is necessarily worse. For example, I still take combi-weapons and autocannons on my MoK terminators, and am glad for it pretty much every game.

... However, the hellbrute does sort of lack in the elites slot at being an elites slot, compared to other elites choices. They don't get to deepstrike, like terminators. They can't be made into troops like the god-warriors. They don't have crazy special rules like possessed. In fact, they don't really have all that much of anything. They're a choice that's just sort of... there. Taking up space, but not doing anything particularly interesting

Start with a not that great choice and then give it one of the worst models that GW currently produces, and you've got a recipe for a rare unit.

the GOAT 765 wrote:
he has ws4 and it wont take 3 turns unless no one moves toward you as well.

Which nobody will, or at least not good player anyway. The only things that will move toward him are things that are better than him. This is basic 40k 101.

the GOAT 765 wrote:
does it take you 3 turns to get a space marine into combat when running.

On foot it would, but there are a few problems with this. One is that if someone wanted to get Marines into combat they wouldn't put them on foot, period. They would be in a Pod or at least a Rhino. The second problem is that whole concept; people don't try and get Marines into combat because it is a game where shooting is more powerful and Space Marines have guns, lots of guns.

the GOAT 765 wrote:
av12 also mean now to stop it from getting into cc you have to devote a s6+ weapon to stop it. that means its not shooting at a rhino, predator/vindicator, defiler/forgefiend, or those pesky plasma cannons at your group of troops.

If you play against good lists, at least half of the enemy firepower will always be S6-7; this is just what 40k is now. Also that is the worst justification for taking a bad unit, and unfortunately too many people use it. The thing is, you could take a better unit for the same points and if people shoot at that they still aren't shooting at your other things, but if it survives you still have a good unit rather than a long shot bad one.

I feel it is important to ask as I have a suspicion, and I promise I am not trying to be patronising, but are you relatively new to this game, or only play with 100% casual players?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Sorry but who has used them is irrelevant. Also saying that they get into combat more than you think just because you manage to do it doesn't make it statistically likely either. Who is to say you don't have bad opponents, and/or they use bad lists, and/or you roll super hot for invuls. and IWND? Anecdotal evidence has no context so is worth nothing.

The Brute moves 6" plus average 3-4" run. That means it will take him 3 turns on average to get into combat. Three damage results is also what it takes to kill him, or statistically cause him to become temporarily immobilized if he manages to heal a HP from IWND. If an army can't kill an AV12 vehicle in three turns, it is a bad army, fact.

Also your solution to run him behind LOS blocking terrain is counter intuiative for the most part, as unless such terrain is conveniently lined up for you, you are going to have to slow your advance to make it to it.

And let's say your dual PF guy gets into combat. Great. With WS3 he hits just about everything on a 4+, so 2 hits, and kills 2 guys.

So in other words, you are paying 105pts for a model that needs to hinder its role to survive, has a 33% chance of not being able to do what it wants for every hull point of damage it takes, and only kills 2 guys on average in the unlikely chance you get there.

Yes, 105pts matter in 40k, a lot.

I'm sorry do you even know what unit we're talking about? I think you're thinking of the maulerfiend with almost everything you've said.

Spudlust wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Sorry but who has used them is irrelevant. Also saying that they get into combat more than you think just because you manage to do it doesn't make it statistically likely either. Who is to say you don't have bad opponents, and/or they use bad lists, and/or you roll super hot for invuls. and IWND? Anecdotal evidence has no context so is worth nothing.

The Brute moves 6" plus average 3-4" run. That means it will take him 3 turns on average to get into combat. Three damage results is also what it takes to kill him, or statistically cause him to become temporarily immobilized if he manages to heal a HP from IWND. If an army can't kill an AV12 vehicle in three turns, it is a bad army, fact.

Also your solution to run him behind LOS blocking terrain is counter intuiative for the most part, as unless such terrain is conveniently lined up for you, you are going to have to slow your advance to make it to it.

And let's say your dual PF guy gets into combat. Great. With WS3 he hits just about everything on a 4+, so 2 hits, and kills 2 guys.

So in other words, you are paying 105pts for a model that needs to hinder its role to survive, has a 33% chance of not being able to do what it wants for every hull point of damage it takes, and only kills 2 guys on average in the unlikely chance you get there.

Yes, 105pts matter in 40k, a lot.

I'm sorry do you even know what unit we're talking about? I think you're thinking of the maulerfiend with almost everything you've said.

How do you figure?

Point number 1: Irrelevance of anecdotal evidence; not related to any unit.

Point number 2: References to 6" move and Crazed, so clearly nothing to do with a Maulerfiend.

Point number 3: Post about terrain, not unit specifics.

Point number 4: Weapon Skill of the Dual PF Helbrute that the OP has said he uses. Apparently he is actually WS4, my bad, but it is the same end result since most units in the game are WS4+. Again, no relevence to the Mauler.

Point number 5: Mentions 105pts which the Mauler is not, more references to Crazed which the Mauler doesn't have, and a repeat on the combat math. Nothing about the Mauler here either unsurprisingly.

Point number 6: General statement about 40k, but mentioned 105pts which I should remind you is not what the Mauler costs.

Perhaps you are the one confused here since none of this could possibly be referencing a Maulerfiend. Either way, if you are going to make an aggressive post at me, at last explain yourself, because your post comes off as very thoughtless; an blatant strawman. Also as they say, argue the point, not the poster, something you failed to do here for whatever reason.

Probably the Ws3 and reference to IWND (which the Helbrute doesn't have).

 grendel083 wrote:
Probably the Ws3 and reference to IWND (which the Helbrute doesn't have).

Does he not have it? Well in that case he is even worse than I thought as chipping away 3HP from an AV12 walker over 3 turns should be easy for most armies.

Assuming your assumption is correct though, two small details doesn't exactly add up to 'almost everything I said' (not that I think you were implying as such, more that I'm further addressing what Spudlust claimed).

I've used a Helbrute in a few games, I really liked the new model and tried to give it a go and make it work, I really did, but it just didn't, it either got destroyed turn one from across the board or ruined by combi-melta/plasma from Sternguard in pods. The one time it got in to combat it got melta-bombed after killing two marines.

If Master of Deception let you outflank them they'd be better, but alas, 'tis not the case.

Once again I find myself in agreement with Ailaros. As someone who's making a reputation for himself as successful with units in the CSM book that many would call sub-par delivered by "sub-par" means, I like to give his thoughts on the rarer seen CSM units more thought than usual and if he says Helbrutes are awful you can bet your butt they are.

He'll still never change my mind on Sons though

 Sheokronath wrote:
Once again I find myself in agreement with Ailaros. As someone who's making a reputation for himself as successful with units in the CSM book that many would call sub-par delivered by "sub-par" means, I like to give his thoughts on the rarer seen CSM units more thought than usual and if he says Helbrutes are awful you can bet your butt they are.

Very good point

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Spudlust wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Sorry but who has used them is irrelevant. Also saying that they get into combat more than you think just because you manage to do it doesn't make it statistically likely either. Who is to say you don't have bad opponents, and/or they use bad lists, and/or you roll super hot for invuls. and IWND? Anecdotal evidence has no context so is worth nothing.

The Brute moves 6" plus average 3-4" run. That means it will take him 3 turns on average to get into combat. Three damage results is also what it takes to kill him, or statistically cause him to become temporarily immobilized if he manages to heal a HP from IWND. If an army can't kill an AV12 vehicle in three turns, it is a bad army, fact.

Also your solution to run him behind LOS blocking terrain is counter intuiative for the most part, as unless such terrain is conveniently lined up for you, you are going to have to slow your advance to make it to it.

And let's say your dual PF guy gets into combat. Great. With WS3 he hits just about everything on a 4+, so 2 hits, and kills 2 guys.

So in other words, you are paying 105pts for a model that needs to hinder its role to survive, has a 33% chance of not being able to do what it wants for every hull point of damage it takes, and only kills 2 guys on average in the unlikely chance you get there.

Yes, 105pts matter in 40k, a lot.

I'm sorry do you even know what unit we're talking about? I think you're thinking of the maulerfiend with almost everything you've said.

How do you figure?

Point number 1: Irrelevance of anecdotal evidence; not related to any unit.

Point number 2: References to 6" move and Crazed, so clearly nothing to do with a Maulerfiend.

Point number 3: Post about terrain, not unit specifics.

Point number 4: Weapon Skill of the Dual PF Helbrute that the OP has said he uses. Apparently he is actually WS4, my bad, but it is the same end result since most units in the game are WS4+. Again, no relevence to the Mauler.

Point number 5: Mentions 105pts which the Mauler is not, more references to Crazed which the Mauler doesn't have, and a repeat on the combat math. Nothing about the Mauler here either unsurprisingly.

Point number 6: General statement about 40k, but mentioned 105pts which I should remind you is not what the Mauler costs.

Perhaps you are the one confused here since none of this could possibly be referencing a Maulerfiend. Either way, if you are going to make an aggressive post at me, at last explain yourself, because your post comes off as very thoughtless; an blatant strawman. Also as they say, argue the point, not the poster, something you failed to do here for whatever reason.

WS3, IWND, and the 2 fist thing. At that, I forgot about him saying he ran two fists when he posted it. I don't see how that was at all aggressive, if I was being an asshat about it I probably would've been a bit more of a jerk with the post. I probably shouldn't of written even in there, since I think that's the single thing that makes it sound the most rude.

By the way, just for the sake of conversation, the Helbrute's 100 points. They errata'd it.

Edit: And the 5+ save reference. It could've been cover, but because you also mentioned IWND I thought you were thinking about the Daemon rule.
Edit 2: I'm also not saying I think the helbrute's good by any means, I just think it's fun. And I actually kindof like the model. I think it's saying too much, but I still like it.

I am not a huge fan of the model but I can understand a use for it. In an AV12 spam MTO list you could increase the units survivability considerably. This would allow you to close with the opponent relatively unmolested as they deal with your maulerfiends/defiler/etc., spawn+IC, and rhinos with PM/berzerkers in them. The daemon units can even give your other stuff cover to increase survivability.

Saying that AV12 CC walkers are not in a good place this edition. There are so many lists with more threatening AV12 vehicles and so much S7+ firepower going around in response in this edition that less than 3 AV12 vehicles will just end up justifying the guns your opponent brought.

The worst part is that crazed can really mess the utility of the model up. If the opponent gets a crazed result at a perpendicular angle to your fire arc you have a 66% chance to either not shoot but stand there or try to charge a unit which my completely redirect you.

I use two Hellbrutes in my main list. The best thing about them is they dont take a heavy slot, and in my armor heavy list, that is vital. They almost always do one of two things: a) kill something worth more points or b) draw fire for something more killy. Then there is the last game I played when both of them got popped without accomplishing anything. Not great units but they
Have uses. Also am I the only one that likes the hellbrute and fiend sculps?