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Spudlust wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Spudlust wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Sorry but who has used them is irrelevant. Also saying that they get into combat more than you think just because you manage to do it doesn't make it statistically likely either. Who is to say you don't have bad opponents, and/or they use bad lists, and/or you roll super hot for invuls. and IWND? Anecdotal evidence has no context so is worth nothing.

The Brute moves 6" plus average 3-4" run. That means it will take him 3 turns on average to get into combat. Three damage results is also what it takes to kill him, or statistically cause him to become temporarily immobilized if he manages to heal a HP from IWND. If an army can't kill an AV12 vehicle in three turns, it is a bad army, fact.

Also your solution to run him behind LOS blocking terrain is counter intuiative for the most part, as unless such terrain is conveniently lined up for you, you are going to have to slow your advance to make it to it.

And let's say your dual PF guy gets into combat. Great. With WS3 he hits just about everything on a 4+, so 2 hits, and kills 2 guys.

So in other words, you are paying 105pts for a model that needs to hinder its role to survive, has a 33% chance of not being able to do what it wants for every hull point of damage it takes, and only kills 2 guys on average in the unlikely chance you get there.

Yes, 105pts matter in 40k, a lot.

I'm sorry do you even know what unit we're talking about? I think you're thinking of the maulerfiend with almost everything you've said.

How do you figure?

Point number 1: Irrelevance of anecdotal evidence; not related to any unit.

Point number 2: References to 6" move and Crazed, so clearly nothing to do with a Maulerfiend.

Point number 3: Post about terrain, not unit specifics.

Point number 4: Weapon Skill of the Dual PF Helbrute that the OP has said he uses. Apparently he is actually WS4, my bad, but it is the same end result since most units in the game are WS4+. Again, no relevence to the Mauler.

Point number 5: Mentions 105pts which the Mauler is not, more references to Crazed which the Mauler doesn't have, and a repeat on the combat math. Nothing about the Mauler here either unsurprisingly.

Point number 6: General statement about 40k, but mentioned 105pts which I should remind you is not what the Mauler costs.

Perhaps you are the one confused here since none of this could possibly be referencing a Maulerfiend. Either way, if you are going to make an aggressive post at me, at last explain yourself, because your post comes off as very thoughtless; an blatant strawman. Also as they say, argue the point, not the poster, something you failed to do here for whatever reason.

WS3, IWND, and the 2 fist thing. At that, I forgot about him saying he ran two fists when he posted it. I don't see how that was at all aggressive, if I was being an asshat about it I probably would've been a bit more of a jerk with the post. I probably shouldn't of written even in there, since I think that's the single thing that makes it sound the most rude.

By the way, just for the sake of conversation, the Helbrute's 100 points. They errata'd it.

Edit: And the 5+ save reference. It could've been cover, but because you also mentioned IWND I thought you were thinking about the Daemon rule.
Edit 2: I'm also not saying I think the helbrute's good by any means, I just think it's fun. And I actually kindof like the model. I think it's saying too much, but I still like it.

Thanks for the reply and clarification

I love to see helbrutes on the table against me.

I actually really like the model, and its like a dread (also known as a free kill point for my tau) but actually worse.
In fact, I don't have a single army which doesn't laugh at people who bring AV12 melee that can't close range with some trickery (pods, teleporter, whatever), or know of one that I'd field even casually that can't do so.

Maybe the ridiculous horde of nids I always wanted to play?

Musashi363 wrote: Also am I the only one that likes the hellbrute and fiend sculps?

no.

Anyways, if what you wanted was a hellbrute with two powerfists, why would you just take a couple of mutilators? They're also pretty tough, and come with an invul save, and they can even deepstrike, which means they can attack weakly held upfield objectives. Plus, they can go into chainfist mode, which is sassy.

 Ailaros wrote:

Musashi363 wrote: Also am I the only one that likes the hellbrute and fiend sculps?

no.

Anyways, if what you wanted was a hellbrute with two powerfists, why would you just take a couple of mutilators? They're also pretty tough, and come with an invul save, and they can even deepstrike, which means they can attack weakly held upfield objectives. Plus, they can go into chainfist mode, which is sassy.

This is actually a really good point, for 55 points you could get a mutilator, which is pretty much guaranteed to at least see the opponent's back field, one mutilator may even go ignored long enough to actually do something. Hell, it takes the same slot and is almost half the price. I'd rather field a lone Muti than a HB.

I never, ever thought I'd say anything good about a Mutilator.

 Ailaros wrote:

Musashi363 wrote: Also am I the only one that likes the hellbrute and fiend sculps?

no.

Anyways, if what you wanted was a hellbrute with two powerfists, why would you just take a couple of mutilators? They're also pretty tough, and come with an invul save, and they can even deepstrike, which means they can attack weakly held upfield objectives. Plus, they can go into chainfist mode, which is sassy.

Ailaros, you mention using Terminators as bully units, just focusing on killing things worse than them. What if someone were to try using helbrutes like that? I could see the lack of deepstrike being a huge problem, likewise with crazed, but there's no way for a lot of models to actually deal with it in close combat, unlike terminators where overwatch and unlucky die rolls can get something just killed. It's just a thought more than anything, to be honest. Maybe terminators do it better overall, but being immune to a lot of the targets that they'd both go after might edge it out for being a bit better. Maybe it would be a better option in a mech list, or something, I'm not sure, just throwing out ideas.


Edit: Also, you've inspired me to do something more with my Helbrute than what it currently is, since as is I need to do something to get rid of that multimelta.

Spudlust wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Musashi363 wrote: Also am I the only one that likes the hellbrute and fiend sculps?

no.

Anyways, if what you wanted was a hellbrute with two powerfists, why would you just take a couple of mutilators? They're also pretty tough, and come with an invul save, and they can even deepstrike, which means they can attack weakly held upfield objectives. Plus, they can go into chainfist mode, which is sassy.

Ailaros, you mention using Terminators as bully units, just focusing on killing things worse than them. What if someone were to try using helbrutes like that? I could see the lack of deepstrike being a huge problem, likewise with crazed, but there's no way for a lot of models to actually deal with it in close combat, unlike terminators where overwatch and unlucky die rolls can get something just killed. It's just a thought more than anything, to be honest. Maybe terminators do it better overall, but being immune to a lot of the targets that they'd both go after might edge it out for being a bit better. Maybe it would be a better option in a mech list, or something, I'm not sure, just throwing out ideas.

It's not a bad idea, but 3 CSM Termis will run you cheaper than a Helbrute, the same price if you slap on a combi. Personally I'd take the Termis and drop in the back and try and harass from there. If you're fighting a heavy drop pod list and you find a way to keep the brute alive it wouldn't be that bad.

Honestly, I've been wanting to run three just so I can spam vindicators and hope that one of the six models stands a chance at surviving. But that'd be about 1000 points that do almost nothing against fliers or anything mobile or with wicked long range. It would be terrible, just fun to screw around with. As much as I want to be more of a tournament player I don't get the chance to play enough, so I'm comfortable screwing around like that.

Spudlust wrote:
Honestly, I've been wanting to run three just so I can spam vindicators and hope that one of the six models stands a chance at surviving. But that'd be about 1000 points that do almost nothing against fliers or anything mobile or with wicked long range. It would be terrible, just fun to screw around with. As much as I want to be more of a tournament player I don't get the chance to play enough, so I'm comfortable screwing around like that.

You should always field whatever you want, in casual games even units denounced as terrible can have their day. Just be aggressive with the vindis, I had a friend who tried to gunline with them and wondered why they never got to fire in 8 games

Spudlust wrote:Ailaros, you mention using Terminators as bully units, just focusing on killing things worse than them. What if someone were to try using helbrutes like that?

Sure, but how?

Without anything fancy in the mobility department, it makes me think that they're a defensive weapon. Indeed, with a multimelta, they're just that. Your opponent brings in something close, and, no matter what it is, it's going to be threatened by a hellbrute. Either it's tough and won't like getting hit by a multimelta and a powerfist (or better, the flail thing), or it's weak, and won't like getting tarpitted by an AV12 vehicle. The swiss-army-knife of defensive units.

The problems with this are threefold, though. Firstly, they're not THAT durable, nor are they THAT easy to hide. I feel like if your opponent was really threatened by them, they'd be able to kill the hellbrute before it was too late, I'd think. Furthermore, there ARE some things that kind of won't care at all about the defensive capabilities of hellbrutes, such as MCs and fliers.

The second is, if what you want is a defensive weapon, then why take a hellbrute? There is no rule against deepstriking terminators into your own deployment zone, and they make a fine defensive unit. Oblits can also do this job, and both these and the termies can also be used offensively as well, unlike the hellbrute. The same can also be said for bikes, raptors, and lords on bikes/jump packs/steeds. Which brings us to...

Thirdly, why do you even need a defensive weapon? Practically everything in the codex is a beast in close combat. If your opponents are bringing stuff up to you, then you get to hack them apart in close combat better. I've been playing CSM for a few months at my FLGS, and already I'm starting to notice that exact same effect as when I played power blobs. Suddenly, everything is all about shooting and backing up, trying to avoid close combat with clearly superior units. In that kind of environment, what is a hellbrute really contributing? What you need is something to punish your opponent for staying away, rather than punishing him for getting too close.

With all of these, things, it sort of feels like hellbrutes are a unit that has a place, but it's not a clear cut winner in that role, and the role itself is sort of irrelevant. Sort of like ogryn for a guard army. Not bad, or even bad for their points, but you could play a long, long time before you said to yourself "oh, if only I'd had OGRYN that game!". Same with a hellbrute.

I think the ogryn comparison's a really good way to put it. I see where you're coming from more when you put it like that, and punishing opponents for being too far away more allying with guard for artillery an even more interesting proposition. Do you do battle reports for your CSM matches? I read your IG ones when I was planning out what I'd buy if I were to play them/Ally with them in the past, and found them pretty informative and entertaining, so if you're doing the same thing for an army I currently play I'll definitely want to check it out.

A few (link, link, link), but they're mostly just me throwing berzerkers at stuff. I've been more recently swapping berzerkers for MoK CSM with bolters and swapping the khorne lord for a sorcerer, but the pitch and flow of the battle has been more or less the same.

That first battle report shows me (basically) tabling a GK player by turn 5, and the last game I played was against the same player with more or less the same list, and it was me with only two retreating terminators at the bottom of 5. The only serious difference was that in the last game, my opponent played defensively with his chimeras and focused down my units (hence this thread). Well, and there was more tailoring (psykers with the S10 Ap1 large blast against deepstrikers, along with warp quake and expecting coteaz, and my infiltrating being shut down by servo skulls and sorcerer being killed off by the perils missiles from a storm raven, along with a bunch more plasma), but still, it was the change in play style that was the problem, not per se a problem with the lists.

So much of CSM is good in close combat, or at least in very close range firefights. Opponents with better range keeping you at a distance is a much bigger problem than someone blindly charging into you and you have nothing at hand to blunt them. Yeah, I'm playing khorne, but still, no CSM army should have much problem handling an opponent trying to get in close.

I really like the model, especially the way I painted it. And I made good experiences with it in a few games now. Most people think like you guys and just ignore it for the more dangerous targets like heldrakes, forgefiends or plague marines. In turn 3 or 4 when they killed the more important targets they already lost quite some of their high S fire and the Helbrute had still 3 HP. In one game I even could bring it into close combat with a unit that couldn't do damage to it and got bound by it and finally destroyed.

And if the opponent does not ignore the Helbrute it takes some AV shots that do not go against my other vehicles. For 105 points with a reaper autocannon I do not complain too much

 Ailaros wrote:
A few (link, link, link), but they're mostly just me throwing berzerkers at stuff. I've been more recently swapping berzerkers for MoK CSM with bolters and swapping the khorne lord for a sorcerer, but the pitch and flow of the battle has been more or less the same.

That first battle report shows me (basically) tabling a GK player by turn 5, and the last game I played was against the same player with more or less the same list, and it was me with only two retreating terminators at the bottom of 5. The only serious difference was that in the last game, my opponent played defensively with his chimeras and focused down my units (hence this thread). Well, and there was more tailoring (psykers with the S10 Ap1 large blast against deepstrikers, along with warp quake and expecting coteaz, and my infiltrating being shut down by servo skulls and sorcerer being killed off by the perils missiles from a storm raven, along with a bunch more plasma), but still, it was the change in play style that was the problem, not per se a problem with the lists.

So much of CSM is good in close combat, or at least in very close range firefights. Opponents with better range keeping you at a distance is a much bigger problem than someone blindly charging into you and you have nothing at hand to blunt them. Yeah, I'm playing khorne, but still, no CSM army should have much problem handling an opponent trying to get in close.

Aside from the noise marine list, all those enemies brought horrible lists, not to mention the weird rules that work in your favor.

I also like the model. It sucks that it is not changeable but whatever. And there is no other csm unit you can take outside of a group of cultists or a choas lord/sorcerer for 105pts. And everyone who says they will just die, does every unit you use always kill everything they come IP against? Have none of your units died before doing anything productive? If so you must win every game you play. Because it sounds like everyone always rolls perfect and always kills exactly what there supposed too.

I tried playing a few games with 3, it was good fun but not all that competitive. I ran them naked. The multi-melta was ok and gave it something to fire as it walked up the pitch but it auto looses vs:

1. monstrous creatures (hello str 10 smash attacks)
2. infrantry with krak grenades (it doesn't even get 5+ invuln) - 10 marines take 2 turns on average to kill it and you can kill 4 marines back.
3. melta guns

That's far too broad a list of things for me. I converted them into nurgle daemon princes which are much more competative.

That said I can think of a good fun list:
3 hellbrutes ~ 300 pts
3 vindicators /w daemonic ~ 360 pts
2 allied guard rus eradicators \w 3 hvy bolters ~360 (AP 4 ignores cover large blast + non-snapfired bolters)
2 vendettas \w hvy bolters ~ 260pts

should leave just about enough points for 2 squads of cultists, a dark apostle of tzeentch and an infantry platoon to ride in the vendettas (or upgrade to vets in a larger game).

That said though all the hellbrutes do is pop landraiders and charge anyone that tries to punch out the back armor of the ruses

--update---
chaos sorcerer = 60
Helbrute x2 = 200
2x 10 cultists = 100
3 vindicators (naked) = 360

primaris psyker = 70
veterans (naked) = 70
2 vendettas \w heavy bolters = 280
2 leman russ with erradicators and heavy bolter sponsons = 360

---------
1500 pts.

mine runs cheap with a plasmacannon and i have nothing BAD to say about it, addmitedly his name is Poppa due the the amont of times he has exploded after one shot but once i got used to him Poppa proved highly useful as a guard.

Poppa camps with the back line with preads and oblits if someone Deep strikes with hopes of taking them out Poppa shows them the dangerous end of his powerfist, i could use other models for this role but im sentimental and Poppa has a place in most of my current lists

First - don't ever use an autocannon on a helbrute. Not even if thats your only arm.

Once mine got a multi melta, I reserved him - he came on turn 2 or three (out of LOS of big dread killing guns) and broke stuff.

I may try this again - he supported my backfield units nicely.

But he's nearly 2 thirds the cost of a heldrake...

I'm slowly building a new CSM army and, were I to take a helbrute (which I never would), I'd convert it out of a loyalist dreadnought model, a la the Nurgle Chaos dreads of yore. Those models were, IMHO, some of the coolest to grace the game.

 Musashi363 wrote:
I use two Hellbrutes in my main list. The best thing about them is they dont take a heavy slot, and in my armor heavy list, that is vital. They almost always do one of two things: a) kill something worth more points or b) draw fire for something more killy. Then there is the last game I played when both of them got popped without accomplishing anything. Not great units but they
Have uses. Also am I the only one that likes the hellbrute and fiend sculps?

Yeah, armor saturation is what they're good for. I do a similar thing with my Imperial Fist army. Because you can't just ignore the thing. I run a Master of the Forge and spam shooty dreds. But for me, that Crazed rule seems too much of a hindrance for any practical usage.

Helbrute are squishy as heck and I would never take them if they were my only armor. They do okay in a mechanized list though.
3 helbrutes, all troops in rhinos, forgefiend support and daemon soul grinder allies. If you flood the board with armor their lifespan increases dramatically.
Helbrutes are a cheap source of plasma cannons in an edition chock full of terminators. I would take 3 with cannons, fists and flamers. That lets them handle nearly any threat and take advantage of all their crazed results. Fire frenzy cannons and flamers will make anything melt away.
They also sync well that way with warpsmiths taking away cover saves and healing hull points. And tzeentch allies for the prescience and soul grinders.

This means they really only work in a list dedicated to armor. It's all or nothing, and lists like eldar serpent spam will still be pretty devastating.

Sounds like ork warbuggies lol. On their own theyre kinda meh but in a full armor list they shine quite well.

Bigger guns has to shoot at the heavier vehicles, and light guns are unlikely to destroy them.

Still think there'd be a slight problem since the Hellbrute only moves 6" (or am i mistaken? never faced it since everyone hates it lol)

primary problem is that it wants to be a cc dred but has no way of getting into cc in the first place, best used as a backline defneder IMO that way it can protect units that you dont want in cc (oblits, havocs, forgefeinds come to mind)

also i hate the idea that many CSM players seem to have that anything that isnt a helldrake is a waste of points, against other flyers helldrake dies so quickly and since almost every army has flyers...

In a codex where synergy is so rarely found, the Warpsmith, while usually looked over, performs pretty well when supporting fiends and brutes. My fiends lay down pain, and my brutes act as bodyguards for the fiends. Combined arms, with units mutually supporting other units is the name of the game.

I use a Helbrute, and I find it useful due to the fact that everyone generally ignores it. Plus it has a chance of knocking out a tank with a mm shot if he gets lucky.

Give them one gun and a fist. Any crazed roll will be fine. The Helbrute is not as bad as most posters say. It just needs a list to work with it. Try this:

3 Helbrutes
3 Maulerfiends
2 units of 5 Nurgle spawn
2 level 3 sorcerers on bikes

The sorcerers ride with spawn and spam telepathy first or Biomancy second if needed. The Maulerfiends and Spawn will put so much pressure on the enemy with turn 2 assaults that no one will bother with the Helbrutes. Remember hell hath no fury like an invisible Maulerfiend with tendrils in combat. Even the Swarmlord wants no part of that.

Also, why are people even getting bothered by crazed? If a lascannon hits a hellbrute, it's got an equal chance to BLOW IT UP as it does to make it crazed. Plus, we're talking about 3HP AV12 here. I'd assumed they'd get glanced to death once in awhile. Even when you do suffer a penetrating hit that doesn't kill the vehicle outright (or just do a weapon destroyed or immobilized), there's still a better than not chance that it does nothing, while there's a slight chance that it actually makes you BETTER.

I'd just ignore the fact that there's crazed for the purpose of list building, personally.

I used 2 hellbrutes in my Iron Warriors army (one CCW and one plama/ML) and they stay on the table for 4 or 5 turns. You just need how to use it or just don't care about it.

What does everybody want for the hellbrute to see him on the table.... 10HP, no craze....wtf

 Musashi363 wrote:
I use two Hellbrutes in my main list. The best thing about them is they dont take a heavy slot, and in my armor heavy list, that is vital. They almost always do one of two things: a) kill something worth more points or b) draw fire for something more killy. Then there is the last game I played when both of them got popped without accomplishing anything. Not great units but they
Have uses. Also am I the only one that likes the hellbrute and fiend sculps?

That is exactly my point ,i use a lascannon and missile launcher hellbrute (its not a hellbrute its a converted dreadnought form regular marines and made in a Iron Warriors Scheme, its visual its better)
When the opponent shot them they are not shooting my obliterators/havocs or my positioning chaos marines , when they shot them they tend to die , If the opponent ignores it they tend to cause some damage .

I have Terminators , Plagues and Noise Marines , normally i choose between the Terminators and the hellbrute depending if i want more close combat or ranged anti tank.

 Sheokronath wrote:

Spudlust wrote:
Honestly, I've been wanting to run three just so I can spam vindicators and hope that one of the six models stands a chance at surviving. But that'd be about 1000 points that do almost nothing against fliers or anything mobile or with wicked long range. It would be terrible, just fun to screw around with. As much as I want to be more of a tournament player I don't get the chance to play enough, so I'm comfortable screwing around like that.

You should always field whatever you want, in casual games even units denounced as terrible can have their day. Just be aggressive with the vindis, I had a friend who tried to gunline with them and wondered why they never got to fire in 8 games

This QFT.

I like Hellbrutes as well, and whilst I may not use them every game I do like the models and I am one of those very few people who like the Crazed rule, I am a casual player and currently I am playing a Warpsmith forge list, which as you can expect has lots of daemon machines but I have not used any Hellbrutes in my list. my only problem with Hellbrutes is that they don't have some defence that can make them resilient against attacks so they die like dreadnoughts, which in this edition is bad, as "the internetz" says, why? because they get one-shotted off the board without a seconded thought, and it will get one-shotted because it gives your opponent first blood. If it had something like daemon it would be considered as quite a canny unit, but unfortunately it does not therefore it is apparently "not viable". Shame as well since Dreadnoughts were one of the major things that got me into 40k, (I seriously love dreadnoughts/Hellbrutes)

 hellpato wrote:
I used 2 hellbrutes in my Iron Warriors army (one CCW and one plama/ML) and they stay on the table for 4 or 5 turns. You just need how to use it or just don't care about it.

What does everybody want for the hellbrute to see him on the table.... 10HP, no craze....wtf

AV12 walkers in general just don't stack up to Monstrous creatures.

So I think what most people want is a TMC like statline.