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Or, more importantly, AV12 is weaker than monstrous creatures, and because so many people are bringing monstrous creatures nowadays, and people build their list to handle this, most people, responding to the general meta, are already going to be bringing enough firepower to easily handle AV12 walkers, what with already bringing the tools to handle the much tougher riptides.

And that, in one sentence, is that.

 Ailaros wrote:
Or, more importantly, AV12 is weaker than monstrous creatures, and because so many people are bringing monstrous creatures nowadays, and people build their list to handle this, most people, responding to the general meta, are already going to be bringing enough firepower to easily handle AV12 walkers, what with already bringing the tools to handle the much tougher riptides.

And that, in one sentence, is that.

And if the game looks that way you might still be happy. Cause if the enemy shoots your Helbrute those shots will not hit your MCs. It's not like he can wipe out all your targets, even if he brought a lot of firepower. And if he brought that much firepower he will be lacking in other areas. A Helbrute shot with S8 shots will in average take 8 shots before it dies, assuming the opponent does not get lucky and have it explode. If that's 8 S8 shots that don't hit my 200+ points Demon Prince I will be glad. Also if I bring Vindicators and/or Predators my opponents tend to priorize those over the Helbrute.

 Murenius wrote:
And if the game looks that way you might still be happy. Cause if the enemy shoots your Helbrute those shots will not hit your MCs. It's not like he can wipe out all your targets, even if he brought a lot of firepower. And if he brought that much firepower he will be lacking in other areas. A Helbrute shot with S8 shots will in average take 8 shots before it dies, assuming the opponent does not get lucky and have it explode. If that's 8 S8 shots that don't hit my 200+ points Demon Prince I will be glad. Also if I bring Vindicators and/or Predators my opponents tend to priorize those over the Helbrute.

Again, this is the worst reasoning I've ever seen people use to take a bad unit. If you want to take the heat off another unit, use a unit that is actually good to do it. You still divert the fire how you please, but instead of being left with a bad unit if it survives, you are left with a decent one.

Also, you are forgetting that the Helbrute's biggest downside is the fact that you don't have to kill it outright at all, as a single glance is potentially enough to ruin it for the next turn.

Not reading everything in the middle since the OP. Its an ugly model and a Contemptor is better.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Again, this is the worst reasoning I've ever seen

Thank you very much, at this point I lose every desire to discuss with you. Not trusting in your arguments so you gotta insult? Geez, people nowadays...

It would be an excuse to bring a bad model if the bad model was overpriced, taken out without any effort, and didnt do as much as something else. Not many units fall under all 3 of those categories if anything. Hellbrute is cheap and CAN be quite deadly if you let it catch something, so its going to draw attention period. If they ignore it for the more obvious threatening targets, allowing it to get somewhere, the CSM player is going to be happy because a model thats (throwng numbers out there) 65% as deadly as the unit that died, but dirt dirt cheap in comparison, managed to reach the enemy and wreck havoc. Would he prefer the bigger model? Sure, but he didnt and the lesser almost "free" in comparison model did so it works out.

Lots of models work that way, like ork Kannon batteries. Rarely do they actually do anything game-breaking, but theyre soooo cheap why not bring them? and they require a bigger gun to take out, so its either let them get lucky or let that big deathstar get close.

Simply hiding behind "Again, this is the worst reasoning I've ever seen" is one uber poor argument, and i hope for your sake you dont end discussions like that in person.
And define a unit that "actually does a good job at it" please. Everything that is designed to be durable and soak up firepower is ignored if they can help it because they almost never do enough damage on their own to win the game without getting very very lucky. A good distraction to protect another model is exactly what the hellbrute would fall under - cheaper, little easier to kill, but not quite as deadly yet deadly enough to be worthy of paying attention to.

Also, many people use the result of the discussion - "helbrute is bad" - to prove the result.

Vineheart01 is right. I agree.

Honestly, I have a FW Decimator, and I cannot ever justify taking 2 Helbrutes over that guy.... He is by all rights 2x more expensive, yet 10x more valuable and feared...

I just cannot find good uses for them that other roles cannot perform, but at a cheaper expense...

lets look at it...

100 points (Dont forget the FAQ reduced its points to 100)
You get a multi-melta
A power fist

Ok... So for 100 points I get a daemon engine that doesnt have the Daemon USR, doesn't have the Daemonforge rule and effectively, isn't anything chaos-y at all...

For 100 points I'd rather take a Dline... It would offer my troops cover, my tanks cover and anything smart enough to hide behind it cover, and thats just half of it... the Dline itself only costs 50 points, the extra 50 is from a Quad Gun, that thing has 48" range... That itself outperforms the Helbrute on anything that isn't the Lascannon upgrade for the darn thing that costs 25 points...

In a TAC list you need to be able to tie up fast moving assault units before they disrupt your lines. You will not always be able to shoot the fast moving assault units to death and in some cases it is not reliable to use a toughness model to do it. (Like against Daemonettes on Steeds)

A Helbrute would be wise to help diversify your army against more threats. If I'm playing against a daemon list with 30 Hounds or 30 Steeds of Slaanesh (not completely uncommon and a useful pair of units), I want to tie them up with a Helbrute.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Also, you are forgetting that the Helbrute's biggest downside is the fact that you don't have to kill it outright at all, as a single glance is potentially enough to ruin it for the next turn.

You have the same chance of getting to fire twice as you have of not getting to shoot at all. In this case, you are forgetting that the Hellbrute's biggest upside is the fact that a single glance is potentially enough to make it go into overdrive kill everything mode.

You can't have it both ways.

I am shocked this has gone on for 3 pages. Everyone should ask themselves the question of if they think about this being run in a totally mechanized list or a foot based list. If you were saying can be good in a mech MTO list then I agree. If you were saying bad in a foot list (most popular list in my experience) then I agree with you.

I personally think in a vacuum it is a flawed unit due to the fragility and lack of control over its actions. Does this mean it is useless, no. It also doesn't mean it is a must take.

BTW the crazed rule gives no concessions for weapon firing range or for the 3rd result what it is moving toward. This can be really annoying if a MC or flyer shoots you from the opposite corner of the board...you know the empty quarter of the board. It is not the kneel of doom but it is another little chip off of a unit type that has issues. It would be hilarious to be caused to charge a keeper of secrets due to this rule...splat.

well, it gives you a reason not to take the multimelta, at least.

Also, note that with the rampage crazed result, all you have to do is end your movement phase within 12" of an enemy model, and then you get to completely ignore the rule. By turn 2 or 3, you're likely going to have SOMETHING getting close to you.

Also, don't forget that with crazed, you only need to roll on the table a maximum of twice per game. Given that two of those results help you, and one can be avoided in certain circumstances, this is hardly much of a drawback, especially for its possible gain.

The heldbrute has very little utility. Everything he does can be done better and cheaper by other units. Maulerfiends are faster, tougher and choppier for a marginal increase. Oblits and Havocs are(much) better at shooting point for point, and his job of supporting fire/counterassault can be performed by Termies.

Wait, I just had a silly idea. What about the hellbrute as an MC-killer?

Think about it. Yes, a pred can throw out more dakka, having both a twin-linked lascannon AND a pair of extra lascannons, but that also costs more than the hellbrute (with the lascannon), and the moment that the MC even pretends to get into close combat, that predator is instantly toast. Meanwhile, the hellbrute isn't.

On the other side, for the same price you have the maulerfiend, and the maulerfiend does have the magma cutters, and it can get into close combat more quickly... but it HAS to get into close combat to do anything at all. Meanwhile, the hellbrute can blast things with its lascannon.

But that's not all, the maulerfiend is WS3, which means a lot of stuff out there hits it on 3's. That's bad because it only has I3, which means that it strikes after MCs, rather than concurrently. Meanwhile, the hellbrute gets to attack at I4, and stuff only hits it on 4's, unless you take a 10 point upgrade, in which case there's a one in three chance that they only hit the vehicle on 5's. The takeaway is that the hellbrute is going to put a wound or two on the MC, while the maulerfiend is likely going to get killed before he gets to attack.

So, let's take an example. A dreadknight against a pred will get shot at once, or maybe twice by the pred as the dreadknight shunts in and then blows it up. The dreadknight likely survives at half strength. A dreadknight against a maulerfiend will see 4 or 5 doomfists bash into the maulerfiend, possibly killing it, and, if it doesn't, the maulerfiend puts down a wound or two on the dreadknight and then is killed the next turn. You could give the maulerfiend lash whips, but then he looses free melta hits, and the result is still probably a dead maulerfiend before a dread dreadknight.

Then look at the hellbrute. He'll throw a wound off with his lascannon as the MC shunts forward. And he can charge into close combat, meaning he puts down another wound (thanks to hitting on 3's). The dreadknight has the same maybe kills it, maybe doesn't as the maulerfiend (if a little better), and then the next turn, it ends. If the flails manage to roll a 5 or 6 on two attempts, then the hellbrute wins because the dreadknight just can't connect.

Not, perhaps, the far and away best, but still better. Most importantly, though, it's not obviously weak anywhere. It's not going to fold to move+shooting like a maulerfiend, or to close combat like a predator. The same is true for offensive power as well. Against a riptide, it can sit back and shoot, while against a doom of malantai it can charge into close combat.

And I suppose that's why it's an elites choice then. There's that elusive flexibility. It doesn't get it in mobility, it gets it in killing power. It always has the option to fight in whatever way is most advantageous to it, rather then being pidgeonholed into a single way of doing things that your opponent can see coming and thus avoid or exploit.

I don't know if that makes it worth taking, but I think that's what they were trying to go for with this model.

^Okay, that's a... weird idea. As a Jump Monstrous Creature, I can't see why the Dreadknight is super-desperate to get into close-combat with that Helbrute. One TL Lascannon is not a reason (a little bit less than 0.5 wounds/turn). And what about the other MCs? Riptides (i can tell you who will win a firefight between a Riptide and a Helbrute: the Riptide) ? CD FMCs (who can just Vector Strike the Helbrute into oblivion or trash it in melee without much problem)? Wraithknights? Biomancy Tyranid MCs?

I have used the Helbrute quite a lot (and I'm still using it in the rare occasion when I play CSM - and I mean, real CSM and not Codex: Nurgle and Baledrakes), but only as a Shootybrute (with TLLC and ML). It isn't completely useless just... subpar. But believe it or not, the Crazed special rule never ever messed my Helbrutes up, because they were either shot into pieces before it could take effect or... well... exploded by the first penetrating hit .

 Murenius wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Again, this is the worst reasoning I've ever seen

Thank you very much, at this point I lose every desire to discuss with you. Not trusting in your arguments so you gotta insult? Geez, people nowadays...

Look, I'm sorry if you got insulted, but I very clearly stated in the post 'people', as in when anybody uses that reasoning. It's nothing about you personally, sorry if it came off that way, but I thought I was pretty clear that that was not my intent. I just don't see that as a good enough reason alone to take any unit.

I honestly like the model and concept and really want an excuse to use them again.

My biggest problem with it is it having two options for CC, power fist and power scourge. Power scourge makes you hit at -2S compared to the the fist, but reduces enemy WS by d3. If the chart to hit wasn't so terrible this might actually mean something. I thought it would work well with the Maulerfiend's lashertendrils, since you'd reduce attacks back by 2 and reduce the chances to hit (if the chart wasn't bad).
Even that idea isn't too great, since most things will just use grenades to take down walkers.

For me the crazed rule is a huge handicap since it forces you to build a balanced Helbrute instead of a dakka or punchy platform. It's something that honestly drives me crazy, but I understand how it's supposed to be fluffy but really drives down the usefulness. I want to take a balanced one as a choice I make, not because I'm worried my dakka dread will not shoot this turn because of a glance.

I ran it in a few games at the initial release. The first time the multimelta killed a few models and then raged into combat and did some damage. Then after that my opponent realized the limitations and any helbrutes I ran never saw combat. That being said I've always wanted to run 3 helbrutes and 3 maulerfiends.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
The heldbrute has very little utility. Everything he does can be done better and cheaper by other units. Maulerfiends are faster, tougher and choppier for a marginal increase. Oblits and Havocs are(much) better at shooting point for point, and his job of supporting fire/counterassault can be performed by Termies.

You are comparing an elite choice to 3 heavies and an elite choice I feel is inferior to the Helbrute. If the Helbrute was in he heavy slot I would agree with you, but he isn't. You can take those three heavy choices and still take a Helbrute.

DarthDiggler wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
The heldbrute has very little utility. Everything he does can be done better and cheaper by other units. Maulerfiends are faster, tougher and choppier for a marginal increase. Oblits and Havocs are(much) better at shooting point for point, and his job of supporting fire/counterassault can be performed by Termies.

You are comparing an elite choice to 3 heavies and an elite choice I feel is inferior to the Helbrute. If the Helbrute was in he heavy slot I would agree with you, but he isn't. You can take those three heavy choices and still take a Helbrute.

The question is, why would you want to? All the Hellbrute's 'strengths' would be covered by the heavies, and by that point in listbuilding you would have to look toward the excellent fast attacks (*cough* Helldrake *cough*) and filling out with troops. The helbrute is just too inefficient to warrant a place IMO.

I've run it twice, both times in an all foot list figuring target saturation would keep it safe. In both games, it gave my opponent first blood and did nothing in return. Even though I won those games, the Hellbrute put me behind the 8 ball right from the get go.

Which is a shame, because I love the fluff behind the unit.

AtoMaki wrote:As a Jump Monstrous Creature, I can't see why the Dreadknight is super-desperate to get into close-combat with that Helbrute. One TL Lascannon is not a reason (a little bit less than 0.5 wounds/turn).

Well, but think about it tactically. Let's say that I have a pair of hellbrutes doing zone control (honestly, CSM armies are so compact, that you'd probably just need one for this). The dreadknight has two options - he can stay back, getting chiseled away by lascannons (which will eventually kill it, especially in combination with other stuff), all the while doing absolutely nothing (you're paying how many points for something to not get into heavy incinerator/close combat?). Or you have the option to charge in and get beaten up by power flails which, if you've already taken damage, you'll probably lose.

So, as the dreadknight player, you're stuck. You either hang back, do nothing, and are eventually killed, or you charge in, try and do something, and then are beaten up in close combat. It's a lose-lose situation.

And it's because they're hellbrutes who can shoot AND be in close combat.

AtoMaki wrote: And what about the other MCs? Riptides (i can tell you who will win a firefight between a Riptide and a Helbrute: the Riptide) ?

Riptides are a fair bit more expensive than a hellbrute, though. It's more fair to compare it to two hellbrutes. In this case, can a riptide kill off two hellbrutes before one of them makes it into close combat? Perhaps, but it's not a slam dunk. Plus, even just sitting back and shooting isn't the worst thing for the hellbrutes here.

AtoMaki wrote: CD FMCs (who can just Vector Strike the Helbrute into oblivion or trash it in melee without much problem)? Wraithknights? Biomancy Tyranid MCs?

That one is actually very bad for the FMCs. Twin-linked lascannons means that the FMC is going to have to worry about grounding tests sooner or later, and when they do, now they're a wounded MC, in close combat with the hellbrute. Which makes them nothing fancy.

 Ailaros wrote:

AtoMaki wrote:As a Jump Monstrous Creature, I can't see why the Dreadknight is super-desperate to get into close-combat with that Helbrute. One TL Lascannon is not a reason (a little bit less than 0.5 wounds/turn).

Well, but think about it tactically. Let's say that I have a pair of hellbrutes doing zone control (honestly, CSM armies are so compact, that you'd probably just need one for this). The dreadknight has two options - he can stay back, getting chiseled away by lascannons (which will eventually kill it, especially in combination with other stuff), all the while doing absolutely nothing (you're paying how many points for something to not get into heavy incinerator/close combat?). Or you have the option to charge in and get beaten up by power flails which, if you've already taken damage, you'll probably lose.

A dreadknight can absolutely murder a helbrute in a single round of combat. The helbrute has only 2 attacks, so knocks on average under one wound off the DK in CC, whilst taking 4 Str 10 Doomfists hitting on 3s to the face,

 Ailaros wrote:

Well, but think about it tactically.

That's exactly what I do! The Dreadknight moves around, using his shunt to get into the opposite corner as the Helbrute and the 12" move to keep the 12"-18" distance. Since that thing can finish off most stuff in 2 Assault phases, the Helburte will rarely get the chance to charge. Meanwhile the rest of your GK army can play "Who has S8?" with the Helbrutes if you are really uncomfortable with their presence. Yeah, from the GK player's side it is like "OMG, I have to use tactics!" but hell, it doesn't mean that much!

 Ailaros wrote:

Riptides are a fair bit more expensive than a hellbrute, though. It's more fair to compare it to two hellbrutes. In this case, can a riptide kill off two hellbrutes before one of them makes it into close combat? Perhaps, but it's not a slam dunk. Plus, even just sitting back and shooting isn't the worst thing for the hellbrutes here.

With a 72" gun, the Riptide can kill all the Helbrutes on the world. And if they get close, then they can taste the TL Fusion Blaster (twice if the Tau player is really mean). And I don't even mention the scenario where the Riptide shoots off the Helbrute's power scourge and charges the poor thing to beat it into a pulp up-close and personal (hitting on 4+ with 2 Smash attacks, penetrating on 3+ with AP2)...

 Ailaros wrote:

That one is actually very bad for the FMCs. Twin-linked lascannons means that the FMC is going to have to worry about grounding tests sooner or later, and when they do, now they're a wounded MC, in close combat with the hellbrute. Which makes them nothing fancy.

They will worry mostly later (~9% chance to actually happen?). And of course an FMC can take a Helbrute in close-combat any time. That -D3 WS won't bother a Daemon Prince or a Hive Tyrant at all.


On the other hand, 2 Nurgle Obliterators can do the same thing for slightly more points but much more reliably.

AtoMaki wrote:The Dreadknight moves around, using his shunt to get into the opposite corner as the Helbrute and the 12" move to keep the 12"-18" distance.

To what end?

He's not getting into close combat. He's not getting into heavy incinerator range. The dreadknight isn't doing anything. He'd been neutralized. By something that costs a third fewer points.

Which is one of the things for the FMCs as well. Yes, a hellbrute is going to have a problem against kairos, but then kairos costs over twice as much. You've got to make fair comparisons.

And then, of course, if we expand scope, the hellbrute is going to synergize better with other stuff in the rest of the lists (what with it synergizing better due to lack of having weaknesses in killing power) than whatever it's up against.

Since the Helbrute is rather clearly situational, what about it's bigger Contemptor and Decimator brothers?

The Contemptor's saving throw is pretty snazzy in my opinion.

 Ailaros wrote:

To what end?

He's not getting into close combat. He's not getting into heavy incinerator range. The dreadknight isn't doing anything. He'd been neutralized. By something that costs a third fewer points.

I guess it is fairly impossible, unless you keep everything in a single blob with a radius of 18". And even then, as I said you can send that Dreadknight to take out the Helbrute: the Helbrute can do only ~0.75 Wounds while the Dreadknight does ~0.87 Exploded result. And still, nothing in this sweet universe forces the Dreadknight to actually engage - it can just charge whatever he wishes and deal with the Helbrute later when he sees fit. He is faster and has a superior damage output - some random AV12 walker won't stop it to wreak havoc, unless it is a Maulerfiend.

 Ailaros wrote:

And then, of course, if we expand scope, the hellbrute is going to synergize better with other stuff in the rest of the lists (what with it synergizing better due to lack of having weaknesses in killing power) than whatever it's up against.

What other stuff? What can it do to support the Obliterators? Or the Heldrake? Or the Maulerfiend? Throw his TLLC into the bag? Stand around and look menacingly at the opponent until it gets smashed into oblivion? It can soak up some fire but since it isn't dangerous, your opponent can just ignore it altogether and maybe throw a random lascannon shot towards its general direction and he will still have a good chance to take it out (either by destroying it or driving it craaaaazy). But if you want to play the fire magnet game, then:
a, Why the power scourge?
b, Why do you want that poor thing to chase MCs (the models with probably the highest damage output in your opponent's army) around?

The Hellbrute has good synergy with the Forgefiend in my experiences. One of the fiends weakness is CQB. The hellbrute adds his dakka (mine carry reapers) to the fiends dakka, and if anyone wants to get cute and get close, the 'brute takes the charge, letting the fiend blast away to his demonic hearts content.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

AtoMaki wrote:As a Jump Monstrous Creature, I can't see why the Dreadknight is super-desperate to get into close-combat with that Helbrute. One TL Lascannon is not a reason (a little bit less than 0.5 wounds/turn).

Well, but think about it tactically. Let's say that I have a pair of hellbrutes doing zone control (honestly, CSM armies are so compact, that you'd probably just need one for this). The dreadknight has two options - he can stay back, getting chiseled away by lascannons (which will eventually kill it, especially in combination with other stuff), all the while doing absolutely nothing (you're paying how many points for something to not get into heavy incinerator/close combat?). Or you have the option to charge in and get beaten up by power flails which, if you've already taken damage, you'll probably lose.

A dreadknight can absolutely murder a helbrute in a single round of combat. The helbrute has only 2 attacks, so knocks on average under one wound off the DK in CC, whilst taking 4 Str 10 Doomfists hitting on 3s to the face,

Or the dreadknight can fire a pair of S10 wraithcannons at the hellbrute and just kill it outright from across the table. The same is true of a Riptide. Neither MC has any reason to fear the hellbrute because both bring enough firepower to kill the hellbrute outright in a single volley, while the hellbrute has to shoot all game long to bring down either MC. And both MCs will fairly effortlessly dismantle the Hellbrute in assault should they chose to do so.

The only benefit walkers have over monstrous creatures is as a tarpit against swarms of fearless light infantry. For 25 more points, a Maulerfiend is vastly superior to a Hellbrute for that task.

Dreadknights don't have Wraithcannons. That won't work.

I love how some people are comparing a 100-110pt unit to a 190-240pt unit. Yea well Riptides suck because my Reaver Titan will kill it in one shot.

Maulerfiends can tie up fearless swarms like the Helbrute can. The Maulerfiend probably does it better because it is faster. The Maulerfiend competes in the heavy slot which has lots of good choices. The Helbrute competes in the Elite slot which does not.

Sorry. Was thinking wraithknight. Dreadknights deal with hell brutes by ignoring them and letting a squad of Strikes light the hellbrute up with psycannons. DKs are also fast enough to close with and destroy a hellbrute effortlessly.