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Warning Spoilers: Contents of "Angel of Fire" below.

I seem to recall at least half of the Primarchs telling Chaos to go feth itself.

 Kain wrote:
I seem to recall at least half of the Primarchs telling Chaos to go feth itself.

I should have been more specific. I was referring to the Primarchs who sided with Chaos. Like Fulgrim for example. Is it possible a man (Macharius) had a stonger will than the Emperors own sons?

Wasn't it more a case of a long slow process of corruption rather than "Hey you Primarch, join chaos, we have cookies!" With a series of smaller events like the emperors chapter wide scathing of the word bearers followed by their nefarious schemes? And I'm sure that the Thousand Sons only joined Chaos to stop themselves being wiped out rather than any actual loyalty to Tzeentch (and even then it wasn't it Magnus' decision to transport them all to a daemon planet rather than stay on prospero during the space wolves attack?). Someone else feel free to step in and fill in the details, I only have a small understanding of the actual events.

Commissar Benny wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I seem to recall at least half of the Primarchs telling Chaos to go feth itself.

I should have been more specific. I was referring to the Primarchs who sided with Chaos. Like Fulgrim for example. Is it possible a man (Macharius) had a stonger will than the Emperors own sons?

Well there are Grey Knights and Sisters who continually tell Chaos to go feth itself with a virtually perfect record of telling it to go feth itself.

 Hereticdave wrote:
Wasn't it more a case of a long slow process of corruption rather than "Hey you Primarch, join chaos, we have cookies!" With a series of smaller events like the emperors chapter wide scathing of the word bearers followed by their nefarious schemes? And I'm sure that the Thousand Sons only joined Chaos to stop themselves being wiped out rather than any actual loyalty to Tzeentch (and even then it wasn't it Magnus' decision to transport them all to a daemon planet rather than stay on prospero during the space wolves attack?). Someone else feel free to step in and fill in the details, I only have a small understanding of the actual events.

I think that is most likely the case. Make no mistake there was a great deal of progressive corruption on the planet Karsk in Angel of Fire that got worse & worse, but the events that occurred were within a short period of time. The odds were certainly were against Macharius & there was a very very high likelihood he would die if he opposed Tzeentch but he managed to prevail with the assistance of some elite psychers.

Whereas the primarchs being old as they were, fought in countless battles against chaos became corrupted over time & exposure to the warp etc?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I seem to recall at least half of the Primarchs telling Chaos to go feth itself.

I should have been more specific. I was referring to the Primarchs who sided with Chaos. Like Fulgrim for example. Is it possible a man (Macharius) had a stonger will than the Emperors own sons?

Well there are Grey Knights and Sisters who continually tell Chaos to go feth itself with a virtually perfect record of telling it to go feth itself.

Very true. I often forget Sisters are human as well. Their power armor always makes me think they are superhuman like Space Marines. Aren't Grey knights space marines?

Power of will can take many forms. Ignoring an injury or overriding the natural self-preservation instinct (something we have ample accounts of people doing in real life as well) is a completely different beast from resisting the temptations of personal power. A person might be able to easily overcome the former challenges but not the latter, or vice versa, and a lot of Space Marine Chapters seem to have a tendency to suffer from hubris and pride as part of their role in the Imperium and the adoration often heaped upon them by the locals, the normal people confirming or even planting the seeds for the high, narcisstic opinion they may have of themselves. Those are the first steps on the road to corruption, just like it happened for half the Legions during the Horus Heresy. Quite a lot of RL dictators such as Gaddafi fell into the same trap, shedding their old ideals after having tasted such power for some time. For as the saying goes, power corrupts, and I'd argue that this goes for political as well as physical might. It takes a special person to resist, and I don't see how the Primarchs should be different from any other human in this regard, considering that this sort of resistance is chiefly a matter of upbringing - perhaps explaining the split amongst the Legions and the reactions of individual personalities.

"I am the strongest warrior of my people. I can best any foe." -> "I am clearly better than normal men." -> "Everybody should bow to my rule. The Emperor is wrong for denying us our right."

Or, to once again quote a section from another short story:

Daemonblood by Ben Counter wrote:"What curiously small creatures you are to present such a thorn in my side." The words roared and rumbled through the air, thick with dark amusement. "What little bundles of ignorant flesh. I am Parmenides, called the Vile, chosen Prince of Nurgle. I am the virus which the Plague God sends to infect your mortal worlds. I am the festering in your wounded empire. Do creatures as insignificant as yourselves have names too, I wonder?"
"Sergeant Castus of the Ultramarines, Second Company", the Marine replied in a defiant voice, as if he were trying to impress the daemon prince.
The horrific gaze turned to Aescarion, questioning.
"I would not give you my name, though it cost my soul", the Battle Sister snarled, and she gripped her axe tighter.
"Such a shame", Parmenides replied. "But the girl I can understand. Her mind is most infertile. What has she ever questioned? They teach her and she believes."

Ultimately, it is a matter of conviction - either induced by blind faith or a strong belief in one's cause. Macharius believed in the Imperium, so he resisted.

Commissar Benny wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I seem to recall at least half of the Primarchs telling Chaos to go feth itself.

I should have been more specific. I was referring to the Primarchs who sided with Chaos. Like Fulgrim for example. Is it possible a man (Macharius) had a stonger will than the Emperors own sons?

Not only possible, but entirely probable. Primarchs are nobility, and nobility is known for being weak-willed and insane. Entitled to power, they desire more. And give in to the corruption.

Perhaps Macharius wasn't a an emotionaly and mentaly underdeveloped manchild with severe daddy issues.

While the Primarchs may have been mentally and physically super-human, emotionally they were no different than children(who had daddy issues)

Chaos can get you any of those 3 ways.

Yes, because the Primarchs were children, the Mac was a grown-ass man.

It should be noted, however, that, in the end, Macharius reached the end of his crusade, and then lamented that he could conquer no more, and his generals would not follow him into the Halo Stars.

Also of interest is that many of the worlds he conquered in his Crusade fell back into revolt and heresy upon his death... so, the question comes about, *did* Tzeentch have a hand in his success? The Architect of Fate is a wily one.

Macharius saw the emperor as his powerful god, the primarchs saw him as a father figure to rebel against who had powers little better than their own.

KingDeath wrote:
Perhaps Macharius wasn't a an emotionaly and mentaly underdeveloped manchild with severe daddy issues.

perhaps Big E should have thought more about having his super sons grow into adults in a mere year. Didnt exactly produce the most stable supermen.

 Exergy wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
Perhaps Macharius wasn't a an emotionaly and mentaly underdeveloped manchild with severe daddy issues.

perhaps Big E should have thought more about having his super sons grow into adults in a mere year. Didnt exactly produce the most stable supermen.

Could you imagine Primarch puberty?

Big Mach had a mommy..and she told him he was special and never ever listen to nasty Demons...never under estimate good ole fashioned humans, placing faith in artificial superhumans that have a loose relation to the trials of actual humans will always go south.

@Kain I think the Primarchs never fully left puberty

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Big Mach had a mommy..and she told him he was special and never ever listen to nasty Demons...never under estimate good ole fashioned humans, placing faith in artificial superhumans that have a loose relation to the trials of actual humans will always go south.

@Kain I think the Primarchs never fully left puberty

Minus the awkward hitting on girls and pimples part of puberty. They had the rebellious phase down to a T though.

 Kain wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
Perhaps Macharius wasn't a an emotionaly and mentaly underdeveloped manchild with severe daddy issues.

perhaps Big E should have thought more about having his super sons grow into adults in a mere year. Didnt exactly produce the most stable supermen.

Could you imagine Primarch puberty?

Uhu, try imaging for moment Angron going through puberty with nails in his skull, so much rage…

Then even Khorne would be like “chill out dude.”

It's not entirely certain that he wasn't corrupted or influenced by the greater daemon. In Fist of Demetrius, Leo repeatedly references the Karsk War as a turning point for Macharius; the man himself fundamentally changed at that moment, becoming more fanatical and obsessed with relics than before.

 Kain wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
Perhaps Macharius wasn't a an emotionaly and mentaly underdeveloped manchild with severe daddy issues.

perhaps Big E should have thought more about having his super sons grow into adults in a mere year. Didnt exactly produce the most stable supermen.

Could you imagine Primarch puberty?

Yeah, worst month and a half ever.

I kinda hate to say it but the way Primarchs are now represented they read like Teenagers...but I guess they were kinda written for teenagers as well, so target audience..achieved \

Well you could make the argument that it is beneficial to the story line.

the Primarchs all literally were teenagers, at least emotionally, and thats why the heresy turned out the way it did.

A example of why you don't give the keys to your military to teenagers...the Big E was not ready for kids I guess.

Which is odd, because he had plenty "real" children over the thousands of years he was hiding in the Shadows.

He left with their moms..he was a deadbeat dad

Well to be fair Big E was a single father with way too many kids and on top of that had to work day and night to keep his buisness up and running

Regardless of stage of mental development of the primarchs just before the Heresy, they were also cast through the warp itself as newborn-stage beasties. The early fluff tended to use that as the standard crutch as to why half of them went mental. Corruption is assumed to be begun even at that early stage and was only added to over time, with some of the primarchs being more susceptible than others.

... this is why the HH should have remained a myth. The depictions of the Primarchs on the page has... not been good.

 Psienesis wrote:
... this is why the HH should have remained a myth. The depictions of the Primarchs on the page has... not been good.

I agree..but the cats outta the box now, and what would 50% of the threads in 40k background and general have to do if they could not discuss the superhuman manchilds every foible and which can win in a pie eating contest.

I use to like the Primarchs..until they started writing books about them

 Psienesis wrote:
... this is why the HH should have remained a myth. The depictions of the Primarchs on the page has... not been good.

If Halo can have a Forerunner saga then 40k can damn well have a War in Heaven and Horus Heresy series.