Pope Francis says "Libertarian Economics Sucks!"

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**Easy E**

This one is for Manchu....

You can read the actual exhortation(?) here:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.html#SOME_CHALLENGES_OF_TODAY%E2%80%99S_WORLD

However, here is the cliff notes per John Dickerson:

Pope Francis' latest apostolic exhortation covers a number of topics, but really lights into libertarian economics. There's a lot of stuff about Jesus in his thinking that I can't really sign on to but here's a great point about media priorities and the declining marginal value of income:

"How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses two points? This is a case of exclusion. Can we continue to stand by when food is thrown away while people are starving? This is a case of inequality. Today everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest, where the powerful feed upon the powerless. As a consequence, masses of people find themselves excluded and marginalized: without work, without possibilities, without any means of escape."

But importantly, he follows up with a specific invocation of the need for state action rather than simple trust in the beneficence of the powerful:

"In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system."

And, again, not a call for charity or goodwill toward the poor but specifically for economic regulation and democratic supervision of the capitalist system:

"While the earnings of a minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by those happy few. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules."

And on externalities:

"In this system, which tends to devour everything which stands in the way of increased profits, whatever is fragile, like the environment, is defenseless before the interests of a deified market, which become the only rule."

Again, a call for political change:

"A financial reform open to such ethical considerations would require a vigorous change of approach on the part of political leaders. I urge them to face this challenge with determination and an eye to the future, while not ignoring, of course, the specifics of each case. Money must serve, not rule! The Pope loves everyone, rich and poor alike, but he is obliged in the name of Christ to remind all that the rich must help, respect and promote the poor."

I've heard a number of conservative Catholic commentators remark numerous times that it's silly for left-wing people to be highlighting Pope Francis' thoughts on economic policy because all this stuff has been Catholic doctrine for a long time. I think this misses the point. Obviously a new pope isn't going to make up a new religious doctrine from scratch. But when you have a corpus of thinking and tradition that spans centuries, it makes a great deal of difference what you emphasize.

I remember very clearly having been an intern in Chuck Schumer's office and attending with the senator, some of his staff, and a wide swathe of New York City political elites an event at St Patrick's Cathedral to celebrate the posthumous award of the Congressional Gold Medal to Archbishop John O'Connor. His successor, Archbishop Egan, delivered an address that went on at length about O'Connor's charitable work, but on a public policy level addressed almost exclusively the Church's support for banning abortion, for discriminating against gay and lesbian couples, and for school vouchers. That was a choice he made about what he thought it was important for people to hear about. Pope Francis is making a different kind of choice.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/11/26/evangelii_gauddium_pope_francis_vs_libertarian_economics.html

**LordofHats**

You know when this guy got picked as Pope, I said I liked him.

*reads article*

Yep. Still like him

**Alfndrate**

[redneck]*spits* Whelp, I didn't vote for him to be my pope, who did, God?[/redneck]

All in all, still a pretty big fan of Pope Frankie

**Palindrome**

Maybe the Pope will be good for something afterall.

**Co'tor Shas**

This pope is amazing.
He's not homophobic, he cares about the poor, and he is a generally nice person.

**LordofHats**

And he has cajones the size of his pulpit. Benedict seemed at times to be almost too afraid to say much about anything. Francis comes off as really speaking his mind.

**loki old fart**

This pope best pope

**Seaward**

I personally would've titled it, "Pope Francis channels Marx!'" but either way, I suspect his views will continue to inform my personal and political philosophies exactly as much as they do now.

**Alfndrate**

Seaward wrote:
I personally would've titled it, "Pope Francis channels Marx!'" but either way, I suspect his views will continue to inform my personal and political philosophies exactly as much as they do now.

Um... completely and entirely?

Did I win a prize?

**Easy E**

I was thinking, "Pope Francis smells like a Socialist".

**LordofHats**

Easy E wrote:
I was thinking, "Pope Francis smells like a Socialist".

Well, he is from South America

**juraigamer**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
This pope is amazing.
He's not homophobic, he cares about the poor, and he is a generally nice person.

It's like he's a Christian. Not just in name.

*glares at most of the US*

**FirePainter**

As a born and raised catholic. I must say this pope is amazing and needs to stay where he's at for a long time.

**Ahtman**

Easy E wrote:
I was thinking, "Pope Francis smells like a Socialist".

Jesus also sounded like a socialist.

**Blacksails**

Dope pope.

**Hulksmash**

Kudos to him for being an active force. Even if I disagree with some of his conclusions.

**SilverMK2**

So, is the Church going to give back the vast sums of money they took from most of the western world over the last couple of thousand years so they could wear silver and gold dresses and build vast stone churches while everyone else lived in hovels and worked as serfs?

**Seaward**

SilverMK2 wrote:
So, is the Church going to give back the vast sums of money they took from most of the western world over the last couple of thousand years so they could wear silver and gold dresses and build vast stone churches while everyone else lived in hovels and worked as serfs?

No, I'd imagine that money's unfortunately already been spent "reassigning" priests who friended Pedobear on Facebook. It's not cheap to ferry a lot of guys all over the world every couple years.

**Frazzled**

Ahtman wrote:
Easy E wrote:
I was thinking, "Pope Francis smells like a Socialist".

Jesus also sounded like a socialist.

Remember boys, Jesus saves, but Satan invests!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverMK2 wrote:
So, is the Church going to give back the vast sums of money they took from most of the western world over the last couple of thousand years so they could wear silver and gold dresses and build vast stone churches while everyone else lived in hovels and worked as serfs?

Wo wo wo, lets not get crazy now...

**gorgon**

Seaward wrote:
I personally would've titled it, "Pope Francis channels Marx!'" but either way, I suspect his views will continue to inform my personal and political philosophies exactly as much as they do now.

**d-usa**

SilverMK2 wrote:
So, is the Church going to give back the vast sums of money they took from most of the western world over the last couple of thousand years so they could wear silver and gold dresses and build vast stone churches while everyone else lived in hovels and worked as serfs?

Considering that this is the kind of crap that Popsie is tired off we can at least hope a tiny little bit.

German Bishop Tebartz-van Elst was building himself a nice little mansion when he had to go visit the pope, who made him wait a week before he would even see him and then cut off the visit after only 15 minutes before suspending him. I guess Tebartz-van Elst didnt get the hint of what the pope is like when new pope refused to move into his papal apartment and decided to stay in his guest-suite instead with minimal staff.

**AgeOfEgos**

Although I am atheist, from what I can tell of the man by his words/actions, I like this Pope a great deal. The two specific news pieces that caught my eye since his coronation were;

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class. We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all. And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: We need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: We will meet one another there." (Unfortunately redacted by the hierarchy of the Catholic Church but the Pope stood by his statement)

and

"We also sense our closeness to all those men and women who, although not identifying themselves as followers of any religious tradition, are nonetheless searching for truth, goodness and beauty, the truth, goodness and beauty of God. They are our valued allies in the commitment to defending human dignity, in building a peaceful coexistence between peoples and in safeguarding and caring for creation.”

When I read the above two quotes, I get a sense of a Pope that wants to use his influence to make the world a better place with believers and atheists alike...and I can get behind that. I still disagree with his views on homosexual marriage, abortion and the right of women within the Catholic Church--but he seems interested in intellectual engagement on those issues--which is all you can ask from someone that disagrees with you. I don't mind saying I really like the guy so far from what I've seen/read of him.

**Kovnik Obama**

"Catholic Pope speaks on Distributism, the economic doctrine advanced by the Church for over a century, and is seen as a revolutionnary by both those that support his claims and those that opposes them.''

That sounds about right.

Seaward wrote:
I personally would've titled it, "Pope Francis channels Marx!'"

The Catholic Church condemns both Capitalism and Socialism as immoral. But OH LORDYLORD, how can you handle something that doesn't conform itself to your 'false dilemma' vision of the world?

**LordofHats**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
"Catholic Pope speaks on Distributism, the economic doctrine advanced by the Church for over a century, and is seen as a revolutionnary by both those that support his claims and those that opposes them.''

That sounds about right.

Right indeed.

**cincydooley**

Well apparently the 7% we tithe isn't good enough anymore. Guess I'll stop altogether.

**Kovnik Obama**

I'm watching the result of this piece hitting the Gawker sinkhole, and it is just painful. Although one thing funny came out of it :

Spoiler:

**LordofHats**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
I'm watching the result of this piece hitting the Gawker sinkhole, and it is just painful. Although one thing funny came out of it :

Spoiler:

Thank you. That's... That's so...

Beautiful.

**curran12**

Francis continues to impress. I'm Catholic and I'm extremely happy with his current path. Go Frankie.

**Ahtman**

cincydooley wrote:
Well apparently the 7% we tithe isn't good enough anymore.

I would guess not since a tithe would be 10%.

**SilverMK2**

Ahtman wrote:
cincydooley wrote:
Well apparently the 7% we tithe isn't good enough anymore.

I would guess not since a tithe would be 10%.

The extra three percent are just for the Trinity, not the Church. Gotta pay the boss its cut of the spoils