The comic book discussion thread.

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**Anung Un Rama**

Seriously, what's the point? To get it in line with the new Wonder Woman nobody likes?

Batman just came back from the dead and started a company. And what was that about Superman renouncing his American citizenship? Why stop all that?

I've been reading more of Joe Kelly's Deadpool and it's really good. He's still wacky, but not as extreme as in his current series. Looking forward to the rest of the book.

Also read the first Deadpool Corps TPB. Didn't really enjoy it. Dogpool had a certain charme, but since Liefeld knows his own reputaion it's no fun anymore. Kid Deadpool was really weird and their first story together looked absolutly horrible.

**Melissia**

I hope they don't completely redo The Question that way...

Or if they do, at least let Renee Montoya remain as The Question. They haven't done enough to explore her as a heroine.

**KamikazeCanuck**

What!?
So does that orkmoticon mean your on board with this s8n?

**reds8n**

I'm a bit torn really.

As a bit of a fanboy I don't really see the value in getting rid of X years worth of continuity.

.. but comic book sales -- for all companies, not just DC -- are falling and falling every year. So someone has to do something to try and galvanise the market and the push into the digital world that this also entails is a good try at that. And if you look at the number of TV shows and films that have ( to vastly differing degrees of course) benefited from a similar reboot or imagining there is thought here.

Generally I'm all for a comic book universe being diverse with regards to ethnicity, gender and so on as well. If we're happy to accept the idea of men and women flying, shooting lasers etc etc then I don't really think a black character to a homosexual one is exactly a huge stretch for the imagination. If we can accept Plastic Man and Wonder Woman and the Spectre then....

Some of the redesigns I'm a little iffy over, but that's by the by and can and will change as the books roll out.

And I am kind of stoked over some of the known crews -- Morrison on Superman is awesome, and it's a cold man who isn't excited by Johns and Lee on the JLA featuring the big guns of the DC universe.

Dreading, potentially, another change to the Legion of Superheroes, I'm hoping they'll leave them alone for a wee while perhaps, renumbering aside.

.. so.. overall.. I can see and understand the reasoning for the changes, I'm just a bit sad that it's come to this. It's a bit like watching a favourite player be sold on from a sportsteam kind of feeling.

I mean I read and enjoyed the whole Superman wedding story XXX years ago. And I can see whole it wouldn't be possible for Superman to divorce or Lois to die. And the classic trope is, of course, his identity being a secret to her, that's the image in the publics' mind and, from a £/$ perspective that's part of the characters' brand.

... it's just... I know the writers will do their best, and lots of the stories will be awesome and all that... but this is, for me, just a reminder that these characters are really nothing more than a cash generator for a corporation. Which I know of course but this just feels a bit too corporate for me.

,, make any sense ?

**Anung Un Rama**

Yes it does, s8n. I can't shake the feeling that this is similar to what happened to Spider-Man with the-event-that-shall-not-be-named. Maybe the motivation behind it was different but the outcome is similar.

I like the changes I've seen over the years in comic books. I liked Spidey's new powers, suit and real connection to the Avengers.
On the DC side I've only read Batman, but I've enjoyed the changes there as well. Hush is still on of my favourite comics of all time, mostly because it distilles so much of what Batman is actually about and how he changed over the years. I'm sad to see him go.

**Melissia**

Personally, I hope that Montoya becomes a bigger feature in this online reboot... I doubt it though. The Question is a cult classic type deal rather than a mainstream one...

**reds8n**

The Renee Question is actually the sort of character I'd expect to get a bit more focus as/when this new edition rolls out.

I think the move to the digital download like this is brave and nasty at the same time.

It effectively does feth over a lot of comic book stores... but that's going to happen eventually anyway and it makes sense for DC to do their best to grab the market share whilst they can.

And I understand they need or want new readers, but in some ways this almost feels like long term readers like myself are almost being ignored or pushed away, "my" comic book universe wasn't good enough.. so it has to go. I know that sounds daft, especially as we have next to no idea what will be kept or thrown out... but I liked the changes ( some anyway) that characters had undergone, I approved of or debated the merits of the new costume, power, logo etc etc and it almost feels like I'm being told that wasn't enough.

daft I know.

**KamikazeCanuck**

reds8n wrote: I'm a bit torn really.

As a bit of a fanboy I don't really see the value in getting rid of X years worth of continuity.

.. but comic book sales -- for all companies, not just DC -- are falling and falling every year. So someone has to do something to try and galvanise the market and the push into the digital world that this also entails is a good try at that. And if you look at the number of TV shows and films that have ( to vastly differing degrees of course) benefited from a similar reboot or imagining there is thought here.

Generally I'm all for a comic book universe being diverse with regards to ethnicity, gender and so on as well. If we're happy to accept the idea of men and women flying, shooting lasers etc etc then I don't really think a black character to a homosexual one is exactly a huge stretch for the imagination. If we can accept Plastic Man and Wonder Woman and the Spectre then....

Some of the redesigns I'm a little iffy over, but that's by the by and can and will change as the books roll out.

And I am kind of stoked over some of the known crews -- Morrison on Superman is awesome, and it's a cold man who isn't excited by Johns and Lee on the JLA featuring the big guns of the DC universe.

Dreading, potentially, another change to the Legion of Superheroes, I'm hoping they'll leave them alone for a wee while perhaps, renumbering aside.

.. so.. overall.. I can see and understand the reasoning for the changes, I'm just a bit sad that it's come to this. It's a bit like watching a favourite player be sold on from a sportsteam kind of feeling.

I mean I read and enjoyed the whole Superman wedding story XXX years ago. And I can see whole it wouldn't be possible for Superman to divorce or Lois to die. And the classic trope is, of course, his identity being a secret to her, that's the image in the publics' mind and, from a £/$ perspective that's part of the characters' brand.

... it's just... I know the writers will do their best, and lots of the stories will be awesome and all that... but this is, for me, just a reminder that these characters are really nothing more than a cash generator for a corporation. Which I know of course but this just feels a bit too corporate for me.

,, make any sense ?

Yes, it does. This is a damned if you do damned if you don't situation for DC. (although honestly I think it more of a damned if you do). The other day people were complaining on Manchu's Batman thread that he needed a "crisis" even to reset him. I agree that Batman not being Batman in Gotham is weird and just feels wrong but what about continuity?

Just lke our Civil War debates (which btw you don't have a leg to stand on anymore

I'll try not to rub it in too much) the main problem I find with Comic Books is the writers lack bravery. When major changes are made you know they're just going to go back. When Spider-Man unmasked himself in front of the White House I remember my buddy and I saying "how are they going to undo this one"....and then y'know, they did. Everytime they undo something it makes all subsequent events of importance seem pointless. It's a serious problem.

The more I think about this the less I like it. I think the original Crisis was very much needed, things were really messed up back then but I just don't think this one is. It'll be wiping out everything from '85 to 2011 and for what? Fans like you even called it their new golden age.

Anyways, what's this about Homosexual African Americans? I seemed to have missed that in your links.

**Alpharius**

At first I was OK with it, after all, sales are flat and/or down, so I can see the thinking behind it...

But then...

Jim Lee wrote:

"We really want to inject new life in our characters and line," says Dan DiDio, co-publisher of DC with Lee. "This was a chance to start, not at the beginning, but at a point where our characters are younger and the stories are being told for today's audience."

Uh oh!

Could it be the 'Wonder Woman Debacle" all over again?!?

And here I was thinking that JMS' changes to Wonder Woman were going to get retconned right out of existence!

Also, "DC Entertainment's Senior Vice President of Sales, Bob Wayne, issued a letter to retailers addressing the announcement. While no prices were discussed for the new books or their digital counterparts, Wayne addressed the question of narrative continuity:"

Bob Wayne wrote:

We have taken great care in maintaining continuity where most important, but fans will see a new approach to our storytelling. Some of the characters will have new origins, while others will undergo minor changes.

So, KamikazeCanuck, that could be some of your 'changes' right there!

**KamikazeCanuck**

Sounds like it's going to be executed like a sloppy This-Time-It's-Totally-Final Crisis.

**Melissia**

reds8n wrote:The Renee Question is actually the sort of character I'd expect to get a bit more focus as/when this new edition rolls out.

I hope so. She was excellently written in Final Crisis. She just needs her own book now... even if it's just a short miniseries, one that's not tied to some massive crossover event.

**Alpharius**

I hear you there, but sadly it looks as if the Big 2 think that only Big Events and Connected Cross-Overs are the only way to go!

**KamikazeCanuck**

Yeah its tough for the big two. At least it is for their big IPs. There's a public perception of what Spider-Man and Batman et al should be and they can't stray too far from it.

Anyways, why aren't any of you reading The Walking Dead!? Read it now! (from the beginning).

**Melissia**

Because I have a set of tastes in comics, and zombie comics don't generally fit in with them.

I also have a low opinion of Image Comics, but that's another issue that's probably linked to Rob Liefeld and therefor I should discard it...

**Alpharius**

Melissia wrote:Because I have a set of tastes in comics, and zombie comics don't generally fit in with them.

I also have a low opinion of Image Comics, but that's another issue that's probably linked to Rob Liefeld and therefor I should discard it...

I think Rob's long gone, and IMAGE does have a rather varied stable of offerings - might be time to check them out again!

**KamikazeCanuck**

Melissia wrote:Because I have a set of tastes in comics, and zombie comics don't generally fit in with them.

I also have a low opinion of Image Comics, but that's another issue that's probably linked to Rob Liefeld and therefor I should discard it...

You need to get over the brands. Good stories are good stories no matter who publishes them. TWD isn't as much about zombies as you think. You haven't expressed that much interest in superheroes but for those who did I recommend Invincible.

I brought these two up because they don't suffer from "big 2" syndrome. You really don't know what's going to happen and major events are permanent.

It just hit me that Detective Comics and Action Comics will be numbered #1.

Detective frikkin' Comics and Action frikkin Comics! Some of the longest running serial stories in history! Travesty.

**Alpharius**

They'll be renumbered until it is time for the 1000th issue of each, and then...

...Shazam!

Back to the original numbering!

**KamikazeCanuck**

Alpharius wrote:They'll be renumbered until it is time for the 1000th issue of each, and then...

...Shazam!

Back to the original numbering!

That's so true it's not even funny. That'll be when they undo everything they did from this undo and Jason Todd becomes president of the Earth.

**gorgon**

Just heard about the reboot. Being an old fart, on one hand I'm kinda tired of reboots (the DC universe having already just been through a mini version), but on the other I'm less concerned about things like continuity. Good stories are good stories...do all the contextual details really matter? Guess that's different for everyone.

I tend to agree with reds8n that this once again underlines these characters being entire corporate brands rather than just characters in a story. Which does seem rather unfortunate from a storytelling standpoint. Suppose it's not unlike GW's conundrum with their core games. You have to overhaul once in a while to keep the customers buying, but you can't actually make many interesting changes without killing the golden goose.

I think this sounds like bad news for the Batman Inc. book, which I really enjoy. But then it sounds like some stuff is staying intact in other books, such as the various colors of Lantern corps. So maybe Batman Inc. sticks, who knows?

And I'm probably in a minority, but I thought JMS's Wonder Woman was at least a fresh approach to the character. Feel like WW's been a lot like Superman in being iconic but lacking great stories. Not saying JMS's story is great either, but at least it's an attempt to get past some of the old baggage. It's kinda funny to me now to consider just how much of the WW character is based in the...preferences of its original writer. It's stuff you'd never pick up on as an innocent kid. Now it's just hit-you-over-the-head obvious from the costume to the lasso to the bracelets to the Amazons to the Amazon's weakness, etc...

**reds8n**

I think the GW analogy is very apt.

This is canon...

.. until a book comes out and says that in fact this is canon and always has been.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/02/the-new-justice/

On Tuesday, we made the announcement in USA Today that DC was undertaking a historic renumbering of 52 superhero titles across the line, starting with JUSTICE LEAGUE #1 by our superstar creators Geoff Johns and Jim Lee. The cover to issue #1 is by Jim Lee and Scott Williams.

We’re announcing today that several of DC’s most iconic heroes will receive historic new first issues spinning out of the pages of Geoff Johns and Jim Lee’s JUSTICE LEAGUE:

New York Times bestselling writer Brian Azzarello, author of The Joker and 100 Bullets, teams up with the immensely talented artist Cliff Chiang (Neil Young’s Greendale) for WONDER WOMAN #1, an exciting new series starring the DC Universe’s greatest superheroine. The cover to issue #1 is by Cliff Chiang.

Geoff Johns, one of comics’ greatest storytellers, reunites with GREEN LANTERN and BRIGHTEST DAY collaborator Ivan Reis to bring you a thrilling new take on the fan-favorite hero of the sea in AQUAMAN #1. The cover to issue #1 is by Ivan Reis and Joe Prado.

Rising superstar Francis Manapul, fresh off his acclaimed run on THE FLASH with Geoff Johns, makes his comics writing debut in THE FLASH #1, sharing both scripting and art duties with Brian Buccellato. The Flash knows he can’t be everywhere at once, but what happens when he faces an all-new villain who can? The cover to issue #1 is by Francis Manapul and Brian Buccellato.

BRIGHTER DAYS

Welcome to a major new vision of the Nuclear Man as writers Ethan Van Sciver and Gail Simone team up with artist Yildiray Cinar to deliver THE FURY OF FIRESTORM #1. Jason Rusch and Ronnie Raymond are two high school students, worlds apart – and now they’re drawn into a conspiracy of super science that bonds them forever in a way they can’t explain or control. The cover to issue #1 is by Ethan Van Sciver.

Batman writer Tony Daniel will team up with artist Philip Tan (GREEN LANTERN: AGENT ORANGE, THE OUTSIDERS) for THE SAVAGE HAWKMAN #1. Carter Hall’s skill at deciphering lost languages has led him to a job with an archeologist who specializes in alien ruins – but will the doctor’s latest discovery spread an alien plague through New York City? No matter the personal cost, Carter Hall must don his cowl and wings and become the new, savage Hawkman to survive. The cover to issue #1 is by Philip Tan.

Oliver Queen is an orphan who grew up to fight crime as the Green Arrow, a billionaire playboy who uses his fortune to become a superhero – able to fight the most powerful super-villains in the universe with nothing but a bow and arrow. JT Krul will write GREEN ARROW #1 with art by superstar artist Dan Jurgens. The cover to issue #1 is by Brett Booth.

GLOBAL JUSTICE

A team of internationally-drafted superheroes fight each other and their bureaucratic supervisors as much as they do global crime in JUSTICE LEAGUE INTERNATIONAL #1 from writer Dan Jurgens and artist Aaron Lopresti. The cover to issue #1 is by Aaron Lopresti.

The world’s third-smartest man – and one of its most eligible bachelors – uses his brains and fists against science gone mad in MISTER TERRIFIC #1, the new series from writer Eric Wallace and artist Roger Robinson. The cover to issue #1 is by J.G. Jones.

Captain Atom has all the power in the world, but no hope of saving himself. Charged by nuclear energy, possessing vast molecular powers, he has the potential to be a god among men – a hero without limits. But the question is this: Will he lose himself in the process? JT Krul and artist Freddie Williams II take the character in a bold new direction in CAPTAIN ATOM #1. The cover to issue #1 is by Stanley “Artgem” Lau.

BRAVER AND BOLDER

The anthology series gets a new look in DC Universe Presents, a new series that will focus on multi-issue story arcs each featuring a different superhero from the DC Universe’s rich cast of characters, told by some of comics’ most exciting writers and artitsts. DC UNIVERSE PRESENTS #1 kicks off the first arc of the series: a Deadman story by Paul Jenkins and Bernard Chang. The cover to issue #1 is by Ryan Sook

..hmm.. well.... happy to see Captain Atom get his own series once again, and I enjoyed the recent JLI books so I'll give that a try.

Really happy to see Firestorm have a book again.... bit unsure about this origin given what's just happened in Brightest Day.

.. no idea about the Green Arrow book

bit worried about Zatanna from the sounds of this and I guess there's no point in picking up Power Girl now until this Final, Final, FINAL crisis hits.

**KamikazeCanuck**

gorgon wrote:Just heard about the reboot. Being an old fart, on one hand I'm kinda tired of reboots (the DC universe having already just been through a mini version), but on the other I'm less concerned about things like continuity. Good stories are good stories...do all the contextual details really matter? Guess that's different for everyone.

I tend to agree with reds8n that this once again underlines these characters being entire corporate brands rather than just characters in a story. Which does seem rather unfortunate from a storytelling standpoint. Suppose it's not unlike GW's conundrum with their core games. You have to overhaul once in a while to keep the customers buying, but you can't actually make many interesting changes without killing the golden goose.

I think this sounds like bad news for the Batman Inc. book, which I really enjoy. But then it sounds like some stuff is staying intact in other books, such as the various colors of Lantern corps. So maybe Batman Inc. sticks, who knows?

And I'm probably in a minority, but I thought JMS's Wonder Woman was at least a fresh approach to the character. Feel like WW's been a lot like Superman in being iconic but lacking great stories. Not saying JMS's story is great either, but at least it's an attempt to get past some of the old baggage. It's kinda funny to me now to consider just how much of the WW character is based in the...preferences of its original writer. It's stuff you'd never pick up on as an innocent kid. Now it's just hit-you-over-the-head obvious from the costume to the lasso to the bracelets to the Amazons to the Amazon's weakness, etc...

I stopped WW a little while ago. Isn't it turing out to be "all a dream"?

**Anung Un Rama**

Where's Batman?

**KamikazeCanuck**

Anung Un Rama wrote:Where's Batman?

What do you mean?

**Alpharius**

Yeah really!

Where's Batman?

HE'S EVERYWHERE!

Seriously - Batman, Inc. for cryin' out loud!

**KamikazeCanuck**

Alpharius wrote:Yeah really!

Where's Batman?

HE'S EVERYWHERE!

Seriously - Batman, Inc. for cryin' out loud!

Everywhere except Gotham.

**Alpharius**

Good one!

**Anung Un Rama**

I meant in that list s8an posted. Who's doing Batman and what can we expect from the new series.

**Melissia**

As long as it's not Frank Miller I'm sure it'll be awesome.

TBH I'm a bit tired of batman. Which is why I turned my gaze to lesser characters, like the Birds of Prey series, The Question (both of them, but especially Montoya), and similar B-list characters. Reading 52 for the first time was awesome.

**VikingScott**

I recently got a Comic book store in my area. Nice place.

Any comics in particular that anyone could recommend? I'm already into 2000AD.

**Anung Un Rama**

Depends on what you want to read. I could recommend quite a few comics. Any characters you're interested in?