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Baronyu wrote:

I haven't worked out all ways, but even taking a simpe strategy of rerolling 3s or less on either dice means that 54% of all assault rolls will be 9 or higher, with very few rolls being less than 6, so the average will be higher than 8, the modal is 10.

Then there is the impact of premeasuring, if you know exactly how far you have to make at the point of charge you can reroll dice accordingly.

Here, have some maths voodoo(by elrabln): http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456706/4449300.page

To get 9" average, you'd need to roll a 5 or a 6 on 1 of your D6, which is definitely not the average of a D6... Rolling 2 dice won't magically make that average higher. You should still be expecting 3 and 4 per dice, so 7 - 8.

This is what was said in the post you linked to.

With 2d6 w/ reroll
2": 1.000
3": 0.999
4": 0.993
5": 0.972
6": 0.923
7": 0.826
8": 0.660
9": 0.478
10": 0.306
11": 0.160
12": 0.055

Patently that is wrong for fleet, If I want to maximinse my chance of rolling 12" I will reroll either dice that isn't a 6. That gives me a 9.3% chance of 12", not 5.5%.

That post doesn't look at the affect of fleet on charge distance, it looks re-rolling the both of 2D6, now go and do the proper maths for fleet. Premeasuring will allow you to choose a reroll strategy that suits you, but as i noted if you reroll 3s or less then your modal average is 10.

edit:

If you reroll any 3 or less then you look like the following

12 = 6.25%
11 = 12.5%
10 = 18.75% <-- modal average
9 = 16.66%
8 = 14.6%
7 = 12.5%
6 = 9%
5 = 4.9%
4 = 2.1%
3 = 1.3%
2 = 0.7%

That makes it an 18% chance to fail a charge that used to be guaranteed in 5th, right? (7 inches)

alarmingrick wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:Only the inside of the templates counts.

Source: local GW employee.

Not the most reliable source.

He says one thing, this pic released by the company he works for would suggest otherwise.

That pic is obvious wrong, and obvious a piece of merchandising...

The template should be "touching" the base of the mini shooting it, not the tip of his gun ¬¬

I am so glad to see so much conversation over that dumb template in the FAQ forum....

Baronyu wrote:To get 9" average, you'd need to roll a 5 or a 6 on 1 of your D6, which is definitely not the average of a D6... Rolling 2 dice won't magically make that average higher. You should still be expecting 3 and 4 per dice, so 7 - 8.

Just a little correction: there is no avarage result for a dice roll, all the six results have the same chances to come.

The avarage of 2 dices works different because the number of combinations you need for some results, where the mid results are more common due to more possible combinations...

You can have a 7 with 6+1, 5+2, 4+3, 3+4, 2+5 or 1+6... but you can only get 2 and 12 with 1+1 and 6+6.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

Baronyu wrote:To get 9" average, you'd need to roll a 5 or a 6 on 1 of your D6, which is definitely not the average of a D6... Rolling 2 dice won't magically make that average higher. You should still be expecting 3 and 4 per dice, so 7 - 8.

Just a little correction: there is no avarage result for a dice roll, all the six results have the same chances to come.

The avarage of 2 dices works different because the number of combinations you need for some results, where the mid results are more common due to more possible combinations...

You can have a 7 with 6+1, 5+2, 4+3, 3+4, 2+5 or 1+6... but you can only get 2 and 12 with 1+1 and 6+6.

The expected value of any single die roll in 3.5. 1+2+3+4+5+6 all divided by 6 =3.5 so you can expect when rolling a single dice to get 3.5 or somewhere between 3-4

skarsol wrote:That makes it an 18% chance to fail a charge that used to be guaranteed in 5th, right? (7 inches)

No, there is an 18% chance to fail a 7" charge if you reroll 3s or lower.

But in 6ed you know you need 7" as you can premeasure so you do not just go rerolling 3s or less, would you reroll the 2 if you intially rolled 6 + 2!.

The chance of failure to make 7" is about 13% I think .

Red Corsair wrote:I am so glad to see so much conversation over that dumb template in the FAQ forum....

Clearly worse than the Math-hammer debate that's also taking place.
How dare people discuss in a discussion forum.

youbedead wrote:The expected value of any single die roll in 3.5. 1+2+3+4+5+6 all divided by 6 =3.5 so you can expect when rolling a single dice to get 3.5 or somewhere between 3-4

The expected value of any single dice is between 1-6. There is an even distribution across all 6 numbers. You are talking mean average, but that is not the same as expected.

puree wrote:

youbedead wrote:The expected value of any single die roll in 3.5. 1+2+3+4+5+6 all divided by 6 =3.5 so you can expect when rolling a single dice to get 3.5 or somewhere between 3-4

The expected value of any single dice is between 1-6. There is an even distribution across all 6 numbers. You are talking mean average, but that is not the same as expected.

You are confusing the common understanding of "expected" with the very real statistical understanding of "expected." It is the weighted average of all possible outcomes. Since all outcomes are equally likely, the weighted average is the same as the simple arithmetic mean.

puree wrote:

youbedead wrote:The expected value of any single die roll in 3.5. 1+2+3+4+5+6 all divided by 6 =3.5 so you can expect when rolling a single dice to get 3.5 or somewhere between 3-4

The expected value of any single dice is between 1-6. There is an even distribution across all 6 numbers. You are talking mean average, but that is not the same as expected.

In my games, my expected die roll is 1, always 1, it has a 99% chance. I'll go back to the shame corner. :(

Nah, as The Dwarf Wolf kindly corrected me, but essentially still agreeing with my point, you're still expecting a better chance to get 7, rather than 9. What you're talking about is luck, a non-quantitive value, a placebo, what they're talking about, is maths, not a placebo.

What I was saying is, as The Dwarf Wolf pointed out, much better than I did(excuse time: I was on Skype), is that to get a roll of 7, you have all the possibility he listed, but to get a 9, as you've suggested to be the average, you'd be going for 6+3 and 4+5... Even with reroll, I wouldn't say that's gonna be as common as the possibilities listed by The Dwarf Wolf.

You don't get an "improved chance to roll higher" when you get a reroll, you get "another chance to roll higher", the dice doesn't say "oh, hey, I rolled a 3 last time, I must roll a 4+ to please my master!", that's why some units can make people reroll their invulnerable, it's not to give them a better chance at passing the invulnerable now, is it?

Baronyu wrote:You don't get an "improved chance to roll higher" when you get a reroll, you get "another chance to roll higher", the dice doesn't say "oh, hey, I rolled a 3 last time, I must roll a 4+ to please my master!", that's why some units can make people reroll their invulnerable, it's not to give them a better chance at passing the invulnerable now, is it?

In which case you are not talking about fleet at all, but just a reroll the 2D6. You need to reread fleet, as that is not how it works. I do have a higher chance of a higher roll than the average 7 because I have the ability to reroll just a single die. I can therefore choose to keep the 4+ I rolled and reroll the 3-, that skews my results significantly towards the top end of the 2-12 range.

What you're talking about is luck, a non-quantitive value, a placebo, what they're talking about, is maths, not a placebo.

I'm not talking about luck, I'm talking about probability, that was a part of maths when I was at school, I know education has gone down the pan in the intervening decades, but really!

The chance to roll a 10 is 18.75%, how is that not quantitive?

So did anyone else notice that Waaagh!ing is now pretty much pointless?

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:So did anyone else notice that Waaagh!ing is now pretty much pointless?

Sure did! Anyone else notice how this edition slapped pretty much everything but Imperials and non Mat Ward codices with the good ole whiffle-nerf bat?

Only use i can think of for it would be for getting a footslogging horde a bit faster for a turn, to close with the enemy.

Still sucks


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr.Church13 wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:So did anyone else notice that Waaagh!ing is now pretty much pointless?

Sure did! Anyone else notice how this edition slapped pretty much everything but Imperials and non Mat Ward codices with the good ole whiffle-nerf bat?

Lets just say that they have given up pretending it wasn't It's was IOM-Win (and Necrons, since Ward wrote them) in 5th too.

puree wrote:

Baronyu wrote:You don't get an "improved chance to roll higher" when you get a reroll, you get "another chance to roll higher", the dice doesn't say "oh, hey, I rolled a 3 last time, I must roll a 4+ to please my master!", that's why some units can make people reroll their invulnerable, it's not to give them a better chance at passing the invulnerable now, is it?

In which case you are not talking about fleet at all, but just a reroll the 2D6. You need to reread fleet, as that is not how it works. I do have a higher chance of a higher roll than the average 7 because I have the ability to reroll just a single die. I can therefore choose to keep the 4+ I rolled and reroll the 3-, that skews my results significantly towards the top end of the 2-12 range.

Eh, this will be my last post on this, I did the same in the rumours thread, I'm not gonna make another 5th ed fleet vs 6th ed fleet argument in a thread that should be about a broader topic...

I am talking about fleet in 6th ed, I know you're talking about rerolling one die instead of two, should one of them be 4 or higher, but again, back to the original post of mine you quoted... 5th ed, we get 6" assault by default, so you can think of that as an automatic 6 on the 2D6", applying the same logic that you have here, that every face gets an equal chance(which is correct), then shouldn't the distance I get in 5th ed fleet be greater than what it is in 6th ed? Because I'm always rolling a die and add the result to a 6, while in your very own example just now, you're talking about D6 + 4(or higher), how is that gonna ever get better than a D6 + 6?!

And really, reroll makes sure you get another chance in not getting a bad assault, it doesn't improve it, because on the reroll, you still have the same chance to get the same result or lower, if we use your example, and re-roll on a 3, it doesn't magically go to a 4+, the chance of getting a 3 or lower is still there. So, ideally speaking, if you're aiming to be in assault as soon as possible, you'd want to be at a closer distance than you did before in 5th ed(strictly talking about fleet vs fleet), because the chance of failing an assault is reduced the closer you are. Afterall, failing an assault meant you're not gonna be in cover, given your opponent a free round of BS1 shooting, and... just... did nothing... Which kinda hurt for some assault units out there!!

I'm not saying fleet doesn't help at all, I'm saying comparing with 5th ed, fleet is a lot weaker. Look at DE, everyone has the chance to run as fast as them now, the most mobile army? Yeah, right...

I'm gonna skip the 2nd half of your post as it is just plain random personal insult that is out of nowhere, but good going there!

I am talking about fleet in 6th ed, I know you're talking about rerolling one die instead of two, should one of them be 4 or higher, but again, back to the original post of mine you quoted... 5th ed, we get 6" assault by default, so you can think of that as an automatic 6 on the 2D6", applying the same logic that you have here, that every face gets an equal chance(which is correct), then shouldn't the distance I get in 5th ed fleet be greater than what it is in 6th ed? Because I'm always rolling a die and add the result to a 6, while in your very own example just now, you're talking about D6 + 4(or higher), how is that gonna ever get better than a D6 + 6?!

And really, reroll makes sure you get another chance in not getting a bad assault, it doesn't improve it, because on the reroll, you still have the same chance to get the same result or lower, if we use your example, and re-roll on a 3, it doesn't magically go to a 4+, the chance of getting a 3 or lower is still there. So, ideally speaking, if you're aiming to be in assault as soon as possible, you'd want to be at a closer distance than you did before in 5th ed(strictly talking about fleet vs fleet), because the chance of failing an assault is reduced the closer you are. Afterall, failing an assault meant you're not gonna be in cover, given your opponent a free round of BS1 shooting, and... just... did nothing... Which kinda hurt for some assault units out there!!

I'm not saying fleet doesn't help at all, I'm saying comparing with 5th ed, fleet is a lot weaker. Look at DE, everyone has the chance to run as fast as them now, the most mobile army? Yeah, right...

At no point have I claimed that 6ed fleet is better than 5ed fleet. I have made no statement at all about what my thoughts on that are. That is a strawman in terms of our discussion, all I have done is point out the inaccuracy in 6ed fleets probabilities/averages that was in your post, all you have done since is try to say that I am wrong on that point and that the averages and probabilities are not what I said.

I'm gonna skip the 2nd half of your post as it is just plain random personal insult that is out of nowhere, but good going there!

There was nothing personal about my reply what so ever, An impersonal sarcastic reply to an indefensible statement, yes, personally offensive, how?

Mr.Church13 wrote:

Anyone else notice how this edition slapped pretty much everything but Imperials and non Mat Ward codices with the good ole whiffle-nerf bat?

No, I did not see how Imperials got better and everything else got worse.

That seems to be the common wisdom about 6th edition but it is very wrong.

And one more thing, do not bother listing all of the things that hurt your codex while you ignore everything that helped.

Space wolf, Wolf Guard Pack Leader counts as characters :/, thats gonna suck

Mr.Church13 wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:So did anyone else notice that Waaagh!ing is now pretty much pointless?

Sure did! Anyone else notice how this edition slapped pretty much everything but Imperials and non Mat Ward codices with the good ole whiffle-nerf bat?

I don't know. I suppose I could say that....hmm...wait...no.

Was gonna say Orks got a boost but their army ability is a bit worthless and where some units got boosted others got ignored.
Tyranids got Psyker shenigans....if only any of their Psykers could cast a third of the abilities they have access too!

Chaos got a boost. Sort of. Khornate things got kicked but Nurgle got away all dirty.

All I say is allies - Typhus and Epidemius. Reach the magic number and Typhus becomes a GOD with 2+/5++/3+ FNP, Poison wounds on 2+ at AP2 and S5 with a force weapon. Or if he gets bored he could potentially put out 9 attacks.

Nurgle got away laughing.

Also, Chaos Spawn got kind of buffed? The wording on the FAQs is a bit vague - roll a D6 for each spawn, add them together, that is the total number of attacks the spawn get. .....Each? OH MY.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:So did anyone else notice that Waaagh!ing is now pretty much pointless?

Sure did! Anyone else notice how this edition slapped pretty much everything but Imperials and non Mat Ward codices with the good ole whiffle-nerf bat?

I don't know. I suppose I could say that....hmm...wait...no.

Was gonna say Orks got a boost but their army ability is a bit worthless and where some units got boosted others got ignored.
Tyranids got Psyker shenigans....if only any of their Psykers could cast a third of the abilities they have access too!

Chaos got a boost. Sort of. Khornate things got kicked but Nurgle got away all dirty.

All I say is allies - Typhus and Epidemius. Reach the magic number and Typhus becomes a GOD with 2+/5++/3+ FNP, Poison wounds on 2+ at AP2 and S5 with a force weapon. Or if he gets bored he could potentially put out 9 attacks.

Nurgle got away laughing.

Also, Chaos Spawn got kind of buffed? The wording on the FAQs is a bit vague - roll a D6 for each spawn, add them together, that is the total number of attacks the spawn get. .....Each? OH MY.

This is all preliminary. Let's give the rules about a month or so to work out and see how it works.

Drunkspleen wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:Don't forget that Nobz are now characters, so all of the can LOS each other to keep as many alive as possible, they can tag into challenges to save their wounded buddies, challenge spam like bosses to ensure that any character who might wreck the unit can only kill one of them, and all their attacks that aren't Snap Fire can be precision.

Meganobz aren't though, which I think is what Ascalam was talking about.

Also, I think a lot of players will begrudge you exploiting the fact that many of the squad leaders in the Ork codex share a name with an elites choice to claim the entire Nob Squad is characters, I certainly wouldn't think highly of someone actually trying to play this way, since it clearly seems like an oversight.

People were unjustly begrudging us for using the wound allocation rules, I wouldn't care less if they are now unjustly claiming that we are exploiting another rule.

Besides, ALL non-named squad leaders in the ork codex are nobz, and they are identical in fluff, model and stats. There is absolutely no reason why they suddenly shouldn't be characters anymore, just because there are a bunch of them in the same place.

So, if a Sergeant challenges a Nob Squad, which Nob fights?

DarkStarSabre wrote:Also, Chaos Spawn got kind of buffed? The wording on the FAQs is a bit vague - roll a D6 for each spawn, add them together, that is the total number of attacks the spawn get. .....Each? OH MY.

The wording isn't the best, but it is clear - people just keep reading too much into it. As I stated about the Beast of Nurgle earlier in the thread, use the following flowchart.

1, Designate a Chaos Spawn unit.
2, Roll a d6.
3, Congratulations! You've now determined the number of attacks models in that unit get this Fight sub-phase.
4, Pick your next unit of Chaos Spawn.

*Shakes head, goes back to lurking*

Crazyterran wrote:So, if a Sergeant challenges a Nob Squad, which Nob fights?

The ork player picks one. Explicitly covered in the rules.

Crazyterran wrote:So, if a Sergeant challenges a Nob Squad, which Nob fights?

As with accepting any other challenge, the accepting player gets to choose which character fights.

I'm not sure I'm following this wound allocation shanenigan conversation. Why do people assume that Paladins and Nobs in a Nob Squad are characters? Does it say that somewhere?

EDIT: (Ah, it's in the reference chart! Well those have never been trustworthy...)

jms40k wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:So, if a Sergeant challenges a Nob Squad, which Nob fights?

As with accepting any other challenge, the accepting player gets to choose which character fights.

Does this mean sergeants, nobs etc are characters? and can pick their targets on a 6 to hit?

Doomhunter wrote:

jms40k wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:So, if a Sergeant challenges a Nob Squad, which Nob fights?

As with accepting any other challenge, the accepting player gets to choose which character fights.

Does this mean sergeants, nobs etc are characters? and can pick their targets on a 6 to hit?

It would seem so...

I've never seen what generally happens when an edition updates before, so I've got a question:

I don't see any generalized FAQ for the core rulebook. Does this means that the old 5th Ed. core FAQ is now null & void? (I would assume so).

If that is the case, then are there any rules that prevent using abilities that require LOS which are not psychic shooting attacks while embarked in a vehicle?

Because if not, then Anrakyr the Traveller just became awesome again if he's able to use Mind in the Machine while embarked on a CCBarge, now that the previous FAQ is gone.



Can anyone clarify?



EDIT: Lukas the Trickster + challenges = funny