Gathering storm II Ynari Aeldari Tactica

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**chadbrochill17**

Caedes wrote:
So thinking it over - a few ways we can deal with gurlyman.

1: the same way I always deal with big scary MC. LOTS of ranged poison. Aim a few venom squads his way and empty the clips. Yea he's gots all the saves, and they are full of special snowflake win. But we can dish ALOT of poison, and it cares not for his high toughness. Eventually he WILL fail some saves, and eventually go down. Add guide/doom and scatbikes for help.

2: Tie him up and bring him down with the visarch, and a bunch of wraithblades. The blades 4++ will help keep them alive, and the str 7 attacks will wound him on 3s. The visarch can also dish out some decent hurt on him, especially if buffed up by nearby psykers. Throw in some cheap warrior squads with sybarites and agonizers to help. If they die - they just feed and fuel the visarch, and his unit otherwise cares not if they die. (Fearless)

3: sounds dumb - but wraithgaurd. Drive by in a wave serpent, hop out 6 of em and fire away with the D. Have a second unit shoot something else close by and if anything dies they can soulburst and do it all over again.

4: ranged D cannon wraithknight. About the same points, but faster, better at range then gurlyman and if you get that lucky 6 he's just DONE. if he gets back up smoke him again.

5: refuse to play against that broken cheesy gak of silliness supreme and go have a refreshing "non alcoholic" beverage. It's win win! Or if you're in a tournament - lose win. Either way the day ends with winning so..... yay?

NON?

**fresus**

Caedes wrote:
So thinking it over - a few ways we can deal with gurlyman.

1: the same way I always deal with big scary MC. LOTS of ranged poison. Aim a few venom squads his way and empty the clips. Yea he's gots all the saves, and they are full of special snowflake win. But we can dish ALOT of poison, and it cares not for his high toughness. Eventually he WILL fail some saves, and eventually go down. Add guide/doom and scatbikes for help.

2: Tie him up and bring him down with the visarch, and a bunch of wraithblades. The blades 4++ will help keep them alive, and the str 7 attacks will wound him on 3s. The visarch can also dish out some decent hurt on him, especially if buffed up by nearby psykers. Throw in some cheap warrior squads with sybarites and agonizers to help. If they die - they just feed and fuel the visarch, and his unit otherwise cares not if they die. (Fearless)

3: sounds dumb - but wraithgaurd. Drive by in a wave serpent, hop out 6 of em and fire away with the D. Have a second unit shoot something else close by and if anything dies they can soulburst and do it all over again.

4: ranged D cannon wraithknight. About the same points, but faster, better at range then gurlyman and if you get that lucky 6 he's just DONE. if he gets back up smoke him again.

5: refuse to play against that broken cheesy gak of silliness supreme and go have a refreshing "non alcoholic" beverage. It's win win! Or if you're in a tournament - lose win. Either way the day ends with winning so..... yay?

1: sadly poison is not an option. With 6W, a 2+ and FNP, you need to cause 54 wounds to kill him, which is 162 poison 4+ shots at BS4, or 7.4 double cannon venoms with warriors in RF range. That's a lot of points.

2: I was also thinking of running the visarch with wraithblades (for the T6 4++), not specifically against guilliman but in general. One of the main weaknesses is challenges. In a challenge, the visarch will die during the first round of combat against a melee beast. And the wraithblades don't have enough attacks to do much damage (Guilliman still has a 3++/FNP) before they bit the dust.

3/4: D is always a good option. It just makes me sad that an increasing number of units are immune to most things but D.

As a harlequin player, my solution against very tough units like that is usually Ld-based attacks. Psychic shriek + mask of secrets can take care of many toughness-based stuff in the game.
But he's immune to Ld modifiers, has adamantium will, and rerolls deny the witch, so it's not that easy…

**Robin5t**

Caedes wrote:
So thinking it over - a few ways we can deal with gurlyman.

1: the same way I always deal with big scary MC. LOTS of ranged poison. Aim a few venom squads his way and empty the clips. Yea he's gots all the saves, and they are full of special snowflake win. But we can dish ALOT of poison, and it cares not for his high toughness. Eventually he WILL fail some saves, and eventually go down. Add guide/doom and scatbikes for help.

2: Tie him up and bring him down with the visarch, and a bunch of wraithblades. The blades 4++ will help keep them alive, and the str 7 attacks will wound him on 3s. The visarch can also dish out some decent hurt on him, especially if buffed up by nearby psykers. Throw in some cheap warrior squads with sybarites and agonizers to help. If they die - they just feed and fuel the visarch, and his unit otherwise cares not if they die. (Fearless)

3: sounds dumb - but wraithgaurd. Drive by in a wave serpent, hop out 6 of em and fire away with the D. Have a second unit shoot something else close by and if anything dies they can soulburst and do it all over again.

4: ranged D cannon wraithknight. About the same points, but faster, better at range then gurlyman and if you get that lucky 6 he's just DONE. if he gets back up smoke him again.

5: refuse to play against that broken cheesy gak of silliness supreme and go have a refreshing "non alcoholic" beverage. It's win win! Or if you're in a tournament - lose win. Either way the day ends with winning so..... yay?

Instead of the Visarch, how about Jain Zar and Wraithblades? Disarming Strike takes away most of his damage output.

My original thought was Jain Zar + Solitaire, but Wraithblades do seem like a better choice if you can get them in melee with him.

**Amishprn86**

Caedes wrote:
So thinking it over - a few ways we can deal with gurlyman.

1: the same way I always deal with big scary MC. LOTS of ranged poison. Aim a few venom squads his way and empty the clips. Yea he's gots all the saves, and they are full of special snowflake win. But we can dish ALOT of poison, and it cares not for his high toughness. Eventually he WILL fail some saves, and eventually go down. Add guide/doom and scatbikes for help.

2: Tie him up and bring him down with the visarch, and a bunch of wraithblades. The blades 4++ will help keep them alive, and the str 7 attacks will wound him on 3s. The visarch can also dish out some decent hurt on him, especially if buffed up by nearby psykers. Throw in some cheap warrior squads with sybarites and agonizers to help. If they die - they just feed and fuel the visarch, and his unit otherwise cares not if they die. (Fearless)

3: sounds dumb - but wraithgaurd. Drive by in a wave serpent, hop out 6 of em and fire away with the D. Have a second unit shoot something else close by and if anything dies they can soulburst and do it all over again.

4: ranged D cannon wraithknight. About the same points, but faster, better at range then gurlyman and if you get that lucky 6 he's just DONE. if he gets back up smoke him again.

5: refuse to play against that broken cheesy gak of silliness supreme and go have a refreshing "non alcoholic" beverage. It's win win! Or if you're in a tournament - lose win. Either way the day ends with winning so..... yay?

He is slow and as killy as a WK in melee so just stay away from him and kill everything else, he is just more survivable.

The only time it will be cheese is if they take lots of Psykers and teleport him into combat a bunch.

Im not going to worry to much personally, i'm just going to kill everything else and play the mission.

**Imateria**

chadbrochill17 wrote:
Imateria wrote:
lambsandlions wrote:
What do you guys think are better shining spears or reaver jetbikes w/cluster caltrops or skyweavers for a close combat jetbike unit? I am thinking about taking three small units of jetbikes, turbo boosting them right into the opponents face, then if they manage to kill one of the units, I can charge with the other two. Hopefully two units of jetbikes would be enough to kill off a unit on their turn (or I can hit and run) then I am in their backfield able to charge on my turn.

Reavers, all day every day. Shining Spears really suffer from the lack of Hit and Run and Skyweavers are strong but very expensive.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

chadbrochill17 wrote:
Imateria wrote:
chadbrochill17 wrote:
The easiest way to kill the new space marine guy is to charge it with fodder and then soul burst assault it with a D wraith knight, the space marine guy will hit first and kill the throw away unit and then the knight will hit him with D and stomps and wont take any damage back.

Sounds like you're betting on 6's there, with Guilliman's WS9 that's 5 attacks hitting on 5's, and a 3+ Invuln is pretty good for tanking D unless you roll that 6. Same thing goes with the stomps.

Knight is likely to have some kind of powers on him, and it may take more than one round of combat but if the knight gets a whole free turn swinging with D, its likely to win the combat.

Except of course that Guiliman is going first, hitting better, almost as hard and with more attacks. And if your going to start throwing Psychic powers into the mix, whats stopping a Librarius Conclave throwing Invisibility on him?

Except of course you clearly didnt read what I typed.

And you clearly don't understand the game because you're trying to build an entire case of a Ghostsword Wrathknight beating Guiliman in combat by fishing for 6's when he only hits on 5's and with 4 attacks plus D3 stomps. Guiliman has better attack and defence than a Wraithknight so unless you get lucky early on he will probably beat it in 2-3 rounds at most.

**nintura**

Let's not forget all the extra Tactics he gets to use, which affect the entire Ultra-smurfs army, every time. And they get two of each tactic per game at least.

**Amishprn86**

nintura wrote:
Let's not forget all the extra Tactics he gets to use, which affect the entire Ultra-smurfs army, every time. And they get two of each tactic per game at least.

And thats why i'm going to try and kill the rest of the army faster

kill 60% the army those tactics dont work as well hehe. it would take WAY to much fire power kill him, with the same amount i could kill 1/4 of his army easily.

edit: spelling

**nintura**

It's official. 350 points confirmed.

**Saythings**

Gulliman moves 6". He shouldn't do anything to an Eldar army, oops, Aeldari. My b. If he ever gets into combat, that's simply user error. If he wasn't an MC and could get slingshotted and/or tank in the front of a squad for a turn or two, then he might be worth talking about.

**Caedes**

You haven't heard? He can ride in any vehicle. Not just transports, and on a 2+ he can be a flying MC for the turn. Because SPHESS MEHREEN BAWZ!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also yes the math doesn't quite like the venom option. However I have found that very rarly does the game and it's dice actually follow math. You would be surprised how often a batch of 1s show up exactly when they are least wanted. I don't know how many times I've seen double 1 on a critical armor save followed immediatly by double 6 on that critical leadership. The dice gods are fickle and care not for your "math" the reason I mention poison - is it's ability to just not care about t6, and the sheer amount of cheap shots it has. No otber gun has that many shots at that range that will wound t6 on 4+. Even scat lasers at 15 per would have a tough time. And since he has all the saves anyway, low AP is not a game changer. So your ranged attacks best choices are either D or a bucket load of poison.

**Verthane**

Robin5t wrote:
Caedes wrote:
So thinking it over - a few ways we can deal with gurlyman.

1: the same way I always deal with big scary MC. LOTS of ranged poison. Aim a few venom squads his way and empty the clips. Yea he's gots all the saves, and they are full of special snowflake win. But we can dish ALOT of poison, and it cares not for his high toughness. Eventually he WILL fail some saves, and eventually go down. Add guide/doom and scatbikes for help.

2: Tie him up and bring him down with the visarch, and a bunch of wraithblades. The blades 4++ will help keep them alive, and the str 7 attacks will wound him on 3s. The visarch can also dish out some decent hurt on him, especially if buffed up by nearby psykers. Throw in some cheap warrior squads with sybarites and agonizers to help. If they die - they just feed and fuel the visarch, and his unit otherwise cares not if they die. (Fearless)

3: sounds dumb - but wraithgaurd. Drive by in a wave serpent, hop out 6 of em and fire away with the D. Have a second unit shoot something else close by and if anything dies they can soulburst and do it all over again.

4: ranged D cannon wraithknight. About the same points, but faster, better at range then gurlyman and if you get that lucky 6 he's just DONE. if he gets back up smoke him again.

5: refuse to play against that broken cheesy gak of silliness supreme and go have a refreshing "non alcoholic" beverage. It's win win! Or if you're in a tournament - lose win. Either way the day ends with winning so..... yay?
Instead of the Visarch, how about Jain Zar and Wraithblades? Disarming Strike takes away most of his damage output.

My original thought was Jain Zar + Solitaire, but Wraithblades do seem like a better choice if you can get them in melee with him.

Indeed. Jain Zar is considered underwhelming for her points, but nothing in my army gets more complaints than when I someone gets my brick of wraithguard into assault, only to find her nerfing the hell out of the whole unit, and then taking away the special toy they thought they would win the challenge with (power fist, etc.). Yes, she's probably too many points for what she brings, but dang is she fun in a situation where she can be delivered (like a webway portal wraithguard squad).

**Xenomancers**

Gurly man isn't any good because gladius is already better than that. Gladius gives any SM shapter reroll 1's for most of the game and a lot of the time it's twin linked. If they want a beatstick they are better off allying in a knight. It is REALLY REALLY disappointing. I really would have been happy if he just gave a battle aura of some kind that would stack with combat doctrines. Something like +1 attack bubble withing 12 inches - or a shred bubble...anything but what you are already getting for free.

His combat abilities can't be underrated - he will kill just about anything BUT he will never get to anything so that is kind of moot.

**DarknessEternal**

Why is this thread now about Guilliman?

Get on topic or start a new thread.

**nintura**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Why is this thread now about Guilliman?

Get on topic or start a new thread.

Thanks for the demand.

But also, because you have to identify a threat completely before you can come up with ways to beat it with the army currently being discussed in this thread?

**Caedes**

It's an ynari tactical thread. One such aspect is how to deal with threats the other guy brings. The new shiney bulllseye is guelyman.

Conversation is valid and your argument is not. I have a picture of batman riding a unicorn if you'd like.

Here's a question.... what about simply tarpitting him with a few wych units? Bring them to range with raiders, and charge him with 2-3 10man squads. As long as you maintain 1" distance from most of the models his sweep attack won't do as much, and the wych 4++ could reliably keep him tied up. If you add a DE combat character with a huskblade (ID stops fnp) then you reduce him to only 1 save - decent ws and lots of attacks means good hits, maybe a few 6 to wound... if they can reach combat they might be an effective counter. Or at very least tie him up to allow you a chance at dismantling of the rest of his army

**Xenomancers**

Caedes wrote:
It's an ynari tactical thread. One such aspect is how to deal with threats the other guy brings. The new shiney bulllseye is guelyman.

Conversation is valid and your argument is not. I have a picture of batman riding a unicorn if you'd like.

Here's a question.... what about simply tarpitting him with a few wych units? Bring them to range with raiders, and charge him with 2-3 10man squads. As long as you maintain 1" distance from most of the models his sweep attack won't do as much, and the wych 4++ could reliably keep him tied up. If you add a DE combat character with a huskblade (ID stops fnp) then you reduce him to only 1 save - decent ws and lots of attacks means good hits, maybe a few 6 to wound... if they can reach combat they might be an effective counter. Or at very least tie him up to allow you a chance at dismantling of the rest of his army

Not a valid tactic - Guryl is honestly best to avoid in CC - there is very little - including deathstars that can deal with him once he makes base. He has a special rule that allows him to attack every model within 1 inch of him (I believe they are auto hits as well) I could be wrong about the parenthesis though. In any case - likely hes getting 10 attacks vs a unit of witches which he can proceed to catch when they fall back with his I6.

I am assuming the only competitive way to take gurly will be with tiggy in a unit of something (probably 3 cents in a pod) Hoping to get electrostatic displacement or magnetokensis at the very least. The first would allow Gurly to charge that turn the second would not but that doesn't require a unit to swap with. Both will at the very least have Gurly on you turn 2 and possibly turn 1. Defensive deployment will be needed in this case.

So It

**astro_nomicon**

It's not auto hits for his special attack, so good but not terrifying.

**Amishprn86**

astro_nomicon wrote:
It's not auto hits for his special attack, so good but not terrifying.

It's basically a way for him to handle hordes so he isnt tar pitted for all game.And I dont feel this is a bad thing, i think it is fine.

Honestly Ynnari is one of the better armies to fight him, we can shoot + turboboost away, or throw a charge of a 10-20pt unit at him on his turn. We can Dbl shoot D-cannon WK's at him etc..

Honestly tho Flying Armies has the best anti tactics against him tho

**nou**

On the off-topic subject of "how to defeat Guilliman": while massed D, soulbursting enough scatterlasers or running around his footslogging lower back in indifferent circles doing actually meaningfull stuff are the most obvious answers, Eldar have a few ways to beatifully troll SM players and their Primarch:

- Avatar of Khaine has already been mentioned, but it is quite spectacular, that the most "Worf effect" Eldar character and the most underwhelming Lord Of War choice we have, that is struggling to make any tabletop appearance, is actually twice as cost efficient in dealing with Guilliman as our other options

- Asurmen in duet with either Karandras or Fuegan: 25 year old classic lead sculpts taking down long awaited plastic Primarch is a sight worth those few extra points and a bit of luck.

- Asurmen in a squad of humble Dire Avengers with Diresword Exarch making SM player sweat before Soulrazor checks...

And the most rage inducing one, that probably should be forbidden by 40K equivalent of Geneva Convention is throwing out-of-sequence Khymerae at him, Soulbursting squads one after another on deaths of their predecessors, keeping him occupied throughout the entire game just to kill 50-100 pts worth of skinned dogs...

**Goobi2**

I am toying with an idea of running several Swooping Hawk units together. They can work together to haywire vehicles and/or mow down units with weight of fire. If they shoot a unit down, the others skyleap out. If they can survive fine after, keep them about to weaken/kill a unit (with outside help if necessary) and then jumping out until next turn.

**Imateria**

nou wrote:
On the off-topic subject of "how to defeat Guilliman": while massed D, soulbursting enough scatterlasers or running around his footslogging lower back in indifferent circles doing actually meaningfull stuff are the most obvious answers, Eldar have a few ways to beatifully troll SM players and their Primarch:

- Avatar of Khaine has already been mentioned, but it is quite spectacular, that the most "Worf effect" Eldar character and the most underwhelming Lord Of War choice we have, that is struggling to make any tabletop appearance, is actually twice as cost efficient in dealing with Guilliman as our other options

- Asurmen in duet with either Karandras or Fuegan: 25 year old classic lead sculpts taking down long awaited plastic Primarch is a sight worth those few extra points and a bit of luck.

- Asurmen in a squad of humble Dire Avengers with Diresword Exarch making SM player sweat before Soulrazor checks...

And the most rage inducing one, that probably should be forbidden by 40K equivalent of Geneva Convention is throwing out-of-sequence Khymerae at him, Soulbursting squads one after another on deaths of their predecessors, keeping him occupied throughout the entire game just to kill 50-100 pts worth of skinned dogs...

I've thought about this as it came up with the Yncarn as well. Can't you choose choose to attack bare handed and not use the close combat weapon? I mean as Monstrous Creatures the Yncarn and Guilliman will both be S6, AP2 anyway but now you're not attacking with a Soulblaze attack so can hurt the Avatar again.

**nintura**

no. You attack with what you have for wargear. This isn't real life

**Galef**

I do not think you can choose not to use a CC weapon if you have one. You only get to choose which you fight with if you have 2 or more melee weapons.
The Avatar of Khiane is immune to an attacks that have Soulblaze (note not to the Soulblaze attacks themselves but any attack that has Soulblaze). So Yncarne and Guiliman cannot touch the Avatar of Khaine.

-

**Amishprn86**

You "can" choose to use a basic CCW but only if you have a extra CCW listed in Wargear Pg 41 brb. Yncarne does not.

CCW is a User Str AP- Melee

"More than one weapon"
If a model has more than one melee weapon he must choose which one to attack with"

Edit: Page Reference

**gummyofallbears**

Guilliman only has one weapon. (30% sure about that)

**nou**

Imateria wrote:
nou wrote:
On the off-topic subject of "how to defeat Guilliman": while massed D, soulbursting enough scatterlasers or running around his footslogging lower back in indifferent circles doing actually meaningfull stuff are the most obvious answers, Eldar have a few ways to beatifully troll SM players and their Primarch:

- Avatar of Khaine has already been mentioned, but it is quite spectacular, that the most "Worf effect" Eldar character and the most underwhelming Lord Of War choice we have, that is struggling to make any tabletop appearance, is actually twice as cost efficient in dealing with Guilliman as our other options

- Asurmen in duet with either Karandras or Fuegan: 25 year old classic lead sculpts taking down long awaited plastic Primarch is a sight worth those few extra points and a bit of luck.

- Asurmen in a squad of humble Dire Avengers with Diresword Exarch making SM player sweat before Soulrazor checks...

And the most rage inducing one, that probably should be forbidden by 40K equivalent of Geneva Convention is throwing out-of-sequence Khymerae at him, Soulbursting squads one after another on deaths of their predecessors, keeping him occupied throughout the entire game just to kill 50-100 pts worth of skinned dogs...

I've thought about this as it came up with the Yncarn as well. Can't you choose choose to attack bare handed and not use the close combat weapon? I mean as Monstrous Creatures the Yncarn and Guilliman will both be S6, AP2 anyway but now you're not attacking with a Soulblaze attack so can hurt the Avatar again.

Funnily, I did based my Avatar evaluation on assumption, that Guilliman "reverts" to being s6 ap2 MC against Avatar, not that he is plain immune to entire Guiiliman (even considering Smash attacks, point-to-point-adjusted Avatar(s) vs Guilliman mathhammer is a close to 50-50 fight). Without ability to fight bare handed, Avatar just became my ultimate troll weapon-of-choice. Especially the clasic, dated GW sculpt and not the spectacular FW one

**nintura**

nou wrote:
Imateria wrote:
nou wrote:
On the off-topic subject of "how to defeat Guilliman": while massed D, soulbursting enough scatterlasers or running around his footslogging lower back in indifferent circles doing actually meaningfull stuff are the most obvious answers, Eldar have a few ways to beatifully troll SM players and their Primarch:

- Avatar of Khaine has already been mentioned, but it is quite spectacular, that the most "Worf effect" Eldar character and the most underwhelming Lord Of War choice we have, that is struggling to make any tabletop appearance, is actually twice as cost efficient in dealing with Guilliman as our other options

- Asurmen in duet with either Karandras or Fuegan: 25 year old classic lead sculpts taking down long awaited plastic Primarch is a sight worth those few extra points and a bit of luck.

- Asurmen in a squad of humble Dire Avengers with Diresword Exarch making SM player sweat before Soulrazor checks...

And the most rage inducing one, that probably should be forbidden by 40K equivalent of Geneva Convention is throwing out-of-sequence Khymerae at him, Soulbursting squads one after another on deaths of their predecessors, keeping him occupied throughout the entire game just to kill 50-100 pts worth of skinned dogs...

I've thought about this as it came up with the Yncarn as well. Can't you choose choose to attack bare handed and not use the close combat weapon? I mean as Monstrous Creatures the Yncarn and Guilliman will both be S6, AP2 anyway but now you're not attacking with a Soulblaze attack so can hurt the Avatar again.

Funnily, I did based my Avatar evaluation on assumption, that Guilliman "reverts" to being s6 ap2 MC against Avatar, not that he is plain immune to entire Guiiliman (even considering Smash attacks, point-to-point-adjusted Avatar(s) vs Guilliman mathhammer is a close to 50-50 fight). Without ability to fight bare handed, Avatar just became my ultimate troll weapon-of-choice. Especially the clasic, dated GW sculpt and not the spectacular FW one

Yep, and then you die to a grav-cent squad in a single round of shooting.

**nou**

nintura wrote:
nou wrote:
Imateria wrote:
nou wrote:
On the off-topic subject of "how to defeat Guilliman": while massed D, soulbursting enough scatterlasers or running around his footslogging lower back in indifferent circles doing actually meaningfull stuff are the most obvious answers, Eldar have a few ways to beatifully troll SM players and their Primarch:

- Avatar of Khaine has already been mentioned, but it is quite spectacular, that the most "Worf effect" Eldar character and the most underwhelming Lord Of War choice we have, that is struggling to make any tabletop appearance, is actually twice as cost efficient in dealing with Guilliman as our other options

- Asurmen in duet with either Karandras or Fuegan: 25 year old classic lead sculpts taking down long awaited plastic Primarch is a sight worth those few extra points and a bit of luck.

- Asurmen in a squad of humble Dire Avengers with Diresword Exarch making SM player sweat before Soulrazor checks...

And the most rage inducing one, that probably should be forbidden by 40K equivalent of Geneva Convention is throwing out-of-sequence Khymerae at him, Soulbursting squads one after another on deaths of their predecessors, keeping him occupied throughout the entire game just to kill 50-100 pts worth of skinned dogs...

I've thought about this as it came up with the Yncarn as well. Can't you choose choose to attack bare handed and not use the close combat weapon? I mean as Monstrous Creatures the Yncarn and Guilliman will both be S6, AP2 anyway but now you're not attacking with a Soulblaze attack so can hurt the Avatar again.

Funnily, I did based my Avatar evaluation on assumption, that Guilliman "reverts" to being s6 ap2 MC against Avatar, not that he is plain immune to entire Guiiliman (even considering Smash attacks, point-to-point-adjusted Avatar(s) vs Guilliman mathhammer is a close to 50-50 fight). Without ability to fight bare handed, Avatar just became my ultimate troll weapon-of-choice. Especially the clasic, dated GW sculpt and not the spectacular FW one

Yep, and then you die to a grav-cent squad in a single round of shooting.

You must have misinterpreted my posts as a serious attempt to find a reliable, hazards-free way to deal with Guilliman in a tournament setting without having to remove any of my models. Of course I die, then grav-cents die, then everyone dies, then we set up the table again. It's 40K...

**SonsofVulkan**

For the points and efficiency, Belisarious Cawl is better than both of them.

I really doubt you'll see Gulliman in many top competitive SM lists. He's just another fluff player's dream.

**DarknessEternal**

Goobi2 wrote:
I am toying with an idea of running several Swooping Hawk units together. They can work together to haywire vehicles and/or mow down units with weight of fire. If they shoot a unit down, the others skyleap out. If they can survive fine after, keep them about to weaken/kill a unit (with outside help if necessary) and then jumping out until next turn.

This is a nice idea unique to Ynnari. The only real problem is Hawks can't mow down units with weight of fire. There aren't many armies that consist of small model count easy to kill units, which is all they can kill with their guns. But if you're fighting Genestealer Cults, it'd work.