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Put this on the BT tactics thread but thought I’d try here as well-Quick question: if I had taken the suffer not the unclean to live vow and used the exemplars of the crusade strat on some sword brethren would the additional hits from the 6s on the strat also be an automatic wound?

If so then a sword brethren unit armed with chain swords with this combo and stacked with the fervent acclamation litany to give them the accept any challenge vow as well would be quite a tasty unit

When you get an additional hit on a certain die roll, the extra hit is treated as being without a die roll. Same with extra wounds or anything.

So it would not.

 JNAProductions wrote:
When you get an additional hit on a certain die roll, the extra hit is treated as being without a die roll. Same with extra wounds or anything.

So it would not.

Not that one would want to take Sword Brethren over Vanguard and Bladeguard.

Thank you for the explanation. Makes sense. Also I’m not a competitive gamer, just me and my brother in law when we get chance and I just like the models and the fact that it’s a Primaris chapter specific unit so want to take them for that reason if nothing else

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Thank you for the explanation. Makes sense. Also I’m not a competitive gamer, just me and my brother in law when we get chance and I just like the models and the fact that it’s a Primaris chapter specific unit so want to take them for that reason if nothing else

Not even talking competitively, Sword Brethren just don't do anything and on top of that have an awful unit entry limited via GW's "build what's in the box".
Just go Bladeguard and use 2CP to give the Sergeant the relic Sword and the stat boosts. You'll have no ragrets.

Was going to give him the icon that reduces ap-1 or ap-2 by one and then tanking hits that way with a blade guard sarge.

The sword is going on my marshal with the two BT traits that give him +1str and attack plus other bonuses

So, since this topic is sorta dead, let's discuss Sniper Raven Guard HQs.
Is it better for a Phobos Captain to take the +1D on a gun Warlord Trait and the Korvi Bolts, or to take the Ex Tenebris and a different Warlord Trait.

Frankly I'd say you should stay far away from both. Sniper captains just aren't very good. You're asking us to pick between two bad options.

Don't really play RG, but I couldnt find the +1d on a gun WLT. Not sure what you're referring to there.

Even so, I would just pick a different HQ.

If I absolutely had to pick.... I think I'd go with the Korvidari bolts. If your opponent does have weaker characters who would be vulnerable to such a sniper; they're guaranteed to hide them from you. So Korvidari bolts seem like the better choice. Realistically though, your chances of taking out any of your opponents characters seem slim.

apogats wrote:
Frankly I'd say you should stay far away from both. Sniper captains just aren't very good. You're asking us to pick between two bad options.

Don't really play RG, but I couldnt find the +1d on a gun WLT. Not sure what you're referring to there.

Even so, I would just pick a different HQ.

If I absolutely had to pick.... I think I'd go with the Korvidari bolts. If your opponent does have weaker characters who would be vulnerable to such a sniper; they're guaranteed to hide them from you. So Korvidari bolts seem like the better choice. Realistically though, your chances of taking out any of your opponents characters seem slim.

The +1D on a gun is the Phobos Warlord Trait. So I'd go two routes:
1. Warlord Trait of +1D on the gun (so D4 total) and the Korvi Bolts
2. Ex Tenebris and another supporting Trait or the Phobos Trait to make him harder to target for shooting.

I'm aware Sniper Captains aren't good, maybe even bad. I'm just looking for something to use my old Lias standin for, or else he'll just be a display piece forever LOL

So, after a move where I was uncertain what of my collection was going to make it with me, I'm looking at rethinking my Primaris collection, scheme, chapter, etc.

Currently, I have:
Phobos Captain
Gravis Captain (planning on the Power Sword loadout)
Primaris Captain w/Auto Bolt Rifle and Power Sword
Primaris Librarian
Primaris Chaplain on a bike
Primaris Lieutenant with Auto Bolt Rifle
Bladeguard Lieutenant
35 Assault Intercessors
10 Infiltrators
10 Intercessors
10 Heavy Intercessors
6 Bladeguard Veterans
Redemptor Dreadnought
3 Suppressors
3 Outriders
5 Hellblasters
3 Eliminators
3 Eradicators

What chapter or successor would maximize what I have? I'm leaning towards Fists or Raven Guard (successors in either case), but I don't know if there's another, better pick.

Arcanis161 wrote:
So, after a move where I was uncertain what of my collection was going to make it with me, I'm looking at rethinking my Primaris collection, scheme, chapter, etc.

Currently, I have:
Phobos Captain
Gravis Captain (planning on the Power Sword loadout)
Primaris Captain w/Auto Bolt Rifle and Power Sword
Primaris Librarian
Primaris Chaplain on a bike
Primaris Lieutenant with Auto Bolt Rifle
Bladeguard Lieutenant
35 Assault Intercessors
10 Infiltrators
10 Intercessors
10 Heavy Intercessors
6 Bladeguard Veterans
Redemptor Dreadnought
3 Suppressors
3 Outriders
5 Hellblasters
3 Eliminators
3 Eradicators

What chapter or successor would maximize what I have? I'm leaning towards Fists or Raven Guard (successors in either case), but I don't know if there's another, better pick.

From a purely competitive standpoint, unfortunately both Fists and Raven Guard aren't great even if you go for successors since their baseline strats and superdoctrine for both subfactions are meh at best. You have a pretty thorough collection even if it's not super focused. Black Templars, Dark Angels (though this would work more if you were heading more towards DW or RW) and Iron Hands are currently the top guys for SM lists if I recall correctly.

Gotta heavily disagree on the Raven Guard front. Their super doctrine is honestly ridiculous.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Gotta heavily disagree on the Raven Guard front. Their super doctrine is honestly ridiculous.

It is seemingly niche though. You gotta be able to target, either through shooting or melee, a character Turns 2 and 3 in order to get any use out of it. It is good for targeting vehicles and monsters that are over 10 wounds and are also characters.

Well it's just ridiculous to even talk about at this point.

Long story short, play Black Templar or Dark Angels, regardless of your collection; because they are the best chapters.

Second Tier is probably White Scars or Blood Angels.

Quibbling over the exact ranking of the rest of the chapters, who are all uncompetitive, doesnt end up meaning very much. It's just a best-of-the-worst list at that point.

So play what you like. But..... I mean... I guess I'd say white Scars? You have a lot of assault intercessors and some units that can be good with advance+shoot.

Space Wolves, or successors thereof, are pretty decent as well. Unfortunately Marines in general are on a major struggle bus just to hold their own against the newer books like Custodes, Tau, and especially the space elf murder clowns.

So, uh, Space Marine players.

What do you think of the faction wide -1 to ap when rolling saves?

Arcanis161 wrote:
So, uh, Space Marine players.

What do you think of the faction wide -1 to ap when rolling saves?

I think it’s a band-aid on the massive lethality issue that 9th has, but I’ll take it.

It helps the Assault Intercessors run at the enemy which is nice.

I feel a bit sad on behalf of my SW plasmagun/stormshield temrinators. But it is quite good for everything else. Particularly characters, dreadnoughts and terinators.

From what I see, it looks like for Marine v Marine/CSM/Sisters match-up, the Assault variants of the Bolt Rifle and Heavy Bolt Rifles just went up in value. The Rapid Fire variants just lost their only point of AP in those match-ups and are now objectively worse than the Assault variants, and the Heavy variants lost a point of AP making them worse too.

Arcanis161 wrote:
From what I see, it looks like for Marine v Marine/CSM/Sisters match-up, the Assault variants of the Bolt Rifle and Heavy Bolt Rifles just went up in value. The Rapid Fire variants just lost their only point of AP in those match-ups and are now objectively worse than the Assault variants, and the Heavy variants lost a point of AP making them worse too.

The heavy ones also interact with doctrines differently than the assualt/rapid one, which are always the same.

With that boost though, since it doesn't impact units that would already reduce incoming AP by 1, are Terminators now more desirable than Bladeguard Vets?

Arcanis161 wrote:
With that boost though, since it doesn't impact units that would already reduce incoming AP by 1, are Terminators now more desirable than Bladeguard Vets?

Since the new rule can't buff anything with a "Storm Shield, Relic Shield or Combat Shield", my guess is probably (100% yes vs -1 damage rules, but Hammer Terminators beat them vs that rule anyway before the DataSlate)

Arcanis161 wrote:
With that boost though, since it doesn't impact units that would already reduce incoming AP by 1, are Terminators now more desirable than Bladeguard Vets?

If you play Dark Angels, for sure. For anyone else, BGV still have enough advantages (transhuman, small cheap squads) to be useful even though shields are way less valuable now.

It'll be interesting to see what's popular when the dust settles, a lot of AP-2 (lightning claw vanvets, hammers, tac doctrine bolt rifles) might no longer be that worthwhile - might be time at last for chainfists!

I think my SW Skyclaws x5 with 1 PF and 2 Grav-Guns for 120 points might have just ticked up to be competitive with the VV/WG with JP LC/SS at 165 points.

Once you control for the points difference, anyway.

Would really like to see Sternguard Combi points prices on the Wolf Guard though.

One thing's for sure, nobody is gonna bother with a Storm Shield on a standard Captain anymore now that it literally does nothing!

Not exactly true it still helps against massive ap 0 shots

Another question: what, if any, vehicles are more viable now? Dreadnoughts get the boost for sure, but they were already good. But what about other vehicles?

Arcanis161 wrote:
Another question: what, if any, vehicles are more viable now? Dreadnoughts get the boost for sure, but they were already good. But what about other vehicles?

From what I can tell, dreadnoughts, particularly volkite ones, are still very strong receivers of the AoC buff as well as redemptors. Rhinos and Impulsors are still not great because it's still more cost efficient to take jump pack VV and terminators can't be transported in them, who are the other big recipients of this change, while BGV don't get a bonus from AoC and are still better to footslog. The main problem for most SM tanks/vehicles is that they're overcosted for what they can do damage output wise, in addition to being pretty fragile against the plethora of D3+3 damage weapons walking about (against Bright/Dark Lances, you're only getting a 6+ save versus no-save compared to before in most caes) while also lacking the CORE keyword that dreadnoughts have that allows you to get the rerolls you need. So this AoC is more of a buff to infantry than vehicles I would say for SM barring dreads.

A "problem" with this balance slate was just how sweeping it was. It means internal balance is virtually unchanged. So while it is awesome that these armies get needed improvements, competitive lists will be roughly the same.

We'll see a LOT more Salamanders, and fewer Bladeguard Veterans... but otherwise lists are what they were.

I love the slate broadly, but GW definitely fixes scalpel problems by applying sledgehammers.