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I got in a bit of an argument not so long ago with a Tau player who had taken an Ion Cannon on his Hammerhead, but the model had a Railgun (which is what he's always used it as). It was only when we'd deployed and my marines were footslogging up a road and were unable to go any way except backwards or forwards did I find out that his tank was using an Ion cannon, and as a result lost over half my 20 marines.

Not only this, but to avoid what I thought would be a Str 10 AP1 solid shot, my Demolisher had deployed on a parallel street, and so was unable to bring its guns to bear for half the game, and because my marines had been blasted into small ineffectual squads of 4 and 3 they were no longer able to fulfill their goal of ousting the Fire Dragons hiding in an perpendicular street connecting to the street which the Russ was on, and so the tank couldn't advance without getting messed up.

Ultimately I lost, and was a bit miffed about him not telling me about the tank, which would have naturally made me deploy differently. What was worse was his bragging that he'd bested me because of a clear strategic supremacy, which I thought was not quite a fair assessment. All in all, was I wrong for not checking his list (he gets pissed when I do, he says I don't trust him) or was I right to feel a bit cheated of a fair chance. I understand he paid the points, I just wish he'd told me.

He should have said straight up what it was on deployment.

You should ALWAYS inform your opponent when the weapon you're using isn't the weapon your model is holding!

It's just common sense, I can't believe anyone wouldn't think of it.

Whenever I do that I have it written down what has what, and I always make sure to make it extremely clear to my opponent before the game what each model is equipped with if it isn't WYSIWYG

His in the wrong.

This is why you always exchange lists at the beginning of the game and make it clear what everything is. If your opponent deliberately concealed the change so they could surprise you with it then your opponent is TFG and you should never play them again.

Yep - prior to deployment you should ask to either take a look at his list or have him walk you through what he is fielding. That is the gentlemans way of doing it.

If ANYTHING is proxied it should be clearly revealed. What he did was kind of bad form.

Next time, when you want to check his list and he whines you don't trust him, remind him about this. This is exactly why you shouldn't trust him.

Sounds like a jerk tbh

He should have told you what he's bring, this goes double if its proxied.

In fact anything not WYSIWYG is in fact a proxy model and should require your express permission to be played as something else. Not telling you what it was was extremely poor sport at the least and could be considered outright against the rules and cheating.

Things need to be clearly pointed out, regardless of WYSIWYG. I can't tell an Ion Cannon from a Railgun and I shouldn't need to be able to.

Dudes full of gak. Show him this thread when he brags about his 'strategic superiority'. Not to mention he picked point and shoot Tau...

If the wargear on your model doesn't represent what is in your list, YOU MUST tell your opponent before the game begins.

Because he didn't do this, he cheated.

You should have re-started the game, and if he continues this behavior don't play him.

The whole proxy thing is not so much the issue as the fact of you accepting what you thought was one thing when he was proxies for another. Your opponent should freely allow you to review their army list at anytime, before, after, and especially during the game. Army lists are there to keep honest players honest.

It does not matter if it is a super casual, or an ultra competitive game. Every player should have their list written or printed out before the game begins. I would ask to see his army list each and every turn. You are within your rights as a player.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Things need to be clearly pointed out, regardless of WYSIWYG. I can't tell an Ion Cannon from a Railgun and I shouldn't need to be able to.

Dudes full of gak. Show him this thread when he brags about his 'strategic superiority'. Not to mention he picked point and shoot Tau...

It would be awesome if he read this thread.

Well, regardless if he is a jerk or not, unless you want to escalate a confrontation, you can always ask ...

"hey, is anything not equipped as modeled?"

or

"mind if you show me your list, I know we can all forget to tell others when the list differs from the model".

Also, regarding "pointing things out" this is a bit common for non marine armies, as the war gear is not as common, but its always good to ask.

Ya he should have said it right away.
When I play with my friends every time something is deployed it is clearly stated what is in the unit and how they are equipped as/before they are put on the board.

Just always ask during the game and stuff in case that isn't how some people play.

Perhaps it was an innocent mistake, such things do happen.

Still, it's a good lesson to learn.

I hope you enjoy your next game a lot more

He needed to tell you what he was fielding. Locally, we always start with a quick rundown of our lists to each other. This avoids the later problems and give opponents a chance to ask questions if needed

The issue reminded me of this.

Next time, demand a list, WYSIWYG or thorough explanation. If he doesn't want to provide either, simply don't play with him.

I'm back. It's a pity you didn't check his list. You say he normally fields his rail rifle as a rail rifle, yet on this one occasion he claims it as something else. He never told you before hand. He let you know when he had you in his sights. Can you do the math? Doesn't seem like an innocent mistake to me.

Have you played him since?

Where I play, it's just common courtesy to run through our lists, and unfamiliar rules and proxies/counts as before the game starts. Only takes a couple of minutes, and prevents confusion later on.

As the opponent, you also have a right to ask any questions about their list/models, so in future, check if you aren't sure.

I try to always give my opponent a copy of my army list - as its at a club - half the people are not that interested in it and half the rest don't know what half of it means

I do try though.............

Before you ever get to deployment, you should have been told what it was. When you both show up and check out each others list, he should have pointed it out to you. If your buddies and trust the numbers and all, He still should have made a point to tell you. maybe even put a quarter on top or something as a reminder.

You should always, ALWAYS inform your opponent if your models are not WYSIWYG.
Also, you should always explain what units and equipment you are fielding if your opponent asks for it.
That dude sounds like he has some very serious issues. You should have told him that he was behaving like a total jerk.

 curran12 wrote:
He should have said straight up what it was on deployment.

What this man said. Always tell your opponent what you're fielding, especially if you've used it to represent something else in every other game.

 Banzaimash wrote:

Ultimately I lost, and was a bit miffed about him not telling me about the tank, which would have naturally made me deploy differently. What was worse was his bragging that he'd bested me because of a clear strategic supremacy, which I thought was not quite a fair assessment. All in all, was I wrong for not checking his list (he gets pissed when I do, he says I don't trust him) or was I right to feel a bit cheated of a fair chance. I understand he paid the points, I just wish he'd told me.

You have a right to not trust him, he just pulled a fast one on him. Check his list every game. EVERY GAME.

If he tries something like this again, don't play him. He sounds like a jerk anyway.

 Banzaimash wrote:
I got in a bit of an argument not so long ago with a Tau player who had taken an Ion Cannon on his Hammerhead, but the model had a Railgun (which is what he's always used it as). It was only when we'd deployed and my marines were footslogging up a road and were unable to go any way except backwards or forwards did I find out that his tank was using an Ion cannon, and as a result lost over half my 20 marines.

Not cool. If he's not using correct models it's on him to point it out and confirm that it's okay to be used (he is the one violating the rules by not using a correct model).

 Banzaimash wrote:
All in all, was I wrong for not checking his list

You probably should have looked at his list but it was on him to get your permission to use a model which was incorrectly equipped.

 Banzaimash wrote:
(he gets pissed when I do, he says I don't trust him)

Massive red flag, right there.

1. Not telling causes confusion.
2. Confusion stops fun.

obviously you should tall your opponent.

Something similar happened to me when I just started...
I was a new player and all, turned my devilfish's back to a rhino, next turn it died to a hunter-killer missile. apparently when I tell him that "I can see what's on the models, no need to walk through", it does not make him thing that if something ISNT on the model he should say so.
I felt cheated. this was a long time ago and is still the thing that pissed me off the most in the game, more then any stroke of incredibly bad luck, more then any foolish mistake I did.
He just took advantage of me trusting him, doing something that I would NOT do if I had the slightest clue what he had.
And that was enough to burn him for me, never played him again except if it came up in a turny. (where he also plays cheap as feth, but I learned to take care of it.)

The player should have said "Hey, btw, this Hammerhead with Railgun ... it's actually an Ion Cannon" ... when i do this with buddies (which is rare), i even go so far as to fold a little piece of paper so it will balance on the model saying whatever the discrepency is (in this case "I HAVE AN ION CANNON").

While it might take away from the overall look of the game, it gets rid of confusion. Though so does fielding WYSIWYG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Banzaimash wrote:
All in all, was I wrong for not checking his list (he gets pissed when I do, he says I don't trust him)

This is called deflection - and it usually means there's some monkey business going on with the list. I would not be surprised if you insisted on checking his list and OOPS found it a few to many points over the game limit.

It's also a massive red flag that something is not right, particularly if this is a friend.