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Genestealer cults are one of those classic Rogue Trader ideas that still have a passionate following. Yet they've not had rules since 3rd edition (and that was an impossible to find Citadel Journal list) and as far as I know they've not popped up in any of the novels or the RPGs. They're occasionally mentioned in 'Nid fluff but never in a major way.

So I had a thought, in the Chapterhouse lawsuit we learned that GW really didn't do a good job of making sure they had the rights to artwork and other materials in the late 80s. So is it possible that they don't own the idea and have to keep away from it?

In terms of novels genestealer cults are in the Inquisition Trilogy and a number of the Ciaphus Cain novels. The expansions to the original Space Hulk board game also focussed on them closely, so I think its more that GW hasn't decided to monetise the concept again for a while, rather than them not owning the rights to the concept. With the recent move to codex expansions and micro-transaction lists, I would think it would be a no brainer for a near future release.

Didn't they show up for some Warhammer World event?

Anyways, I don't remember any IP rows involving Genestealer hybrids, and cultists are generic enough not to raise any copyright problems. Also, it's not like there was much to own besides a couple descriptions and a handful miniature designs, so any attempt at reviving the army would be like writing the faction from the ground up.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Genestealer cults are one of those classic Rogue Trader ideas that still have a passionate following. Yet they've not had rules since 3rd edition (and that was an impossible to find Citadel Journal list) and as far as I know they've not popped up in any of the novels or the RPGs. They're occasionally mentioned in 'Nid fluff but never in a major way.

So I had a thought, in the Chapterhouse lawsuit we learned that GW really didn't do a good job of making sure they had the rights to artwork and other materials in the late 80s. So is it possible that they don't own the idea and have to keep away from it?

Genestealer Cults aren't really something suited to "warfare", but rather Inquisitor styled or Necromunda games.

Remember that the Cults aren't taking over Guard regiments but rather Planetary Defense Forces and civilians/militias.

Andy Chambers wrote:Alan Merrett, head of IP these days, has a bit of thing against genestealers [...]

Probably sums it up nicely.

 Allod wrote:

Andy Chambers wrote:Alan Merrett, head of IP these days, has a bit of thing against genestealers [...]

Probably sums it up nicely.

Where was that from? I might like to read that article.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Genestealer cults are one of those classic Rogue Trader ideas that still have a passionate following. Yet they've not had rules since 3rd edition (and that was an impossible to find Citadel Journal list) and as far as I know they've not popped up in any of the novels or the RPGs. They're occasionally mentioned in 'Nid fluff but never in a major way.

So I had a thought, in the Chapterhouse lawsuit we learned that GW really didn't do a good job of making sure they had the rights to artwork and other materials in the late 80s. So is it possible that they don't own the idea and have to keep away from it?

The reason they don't appear much these days is because as an army they really do suck except for the cool modeling abilities and appearance on the table. A genestealer chaos cult was one of my two initial 40k armies and I kept it alive as long as I could. Finally I had to abandon it. It was always a one trick pony: Crappy BS troops shooting at enemy positions while waiting for the 20 strong unit of purestrains charging across the table and tearing the enemy apart. If that purestrain unit got into contact it was over for most enemy armies. If that purestrain unit got shot apart completely you lost the game. Tactically they were boring and not really all that good as a force. That is why they don't appear any more as an army. When I first made the army Purestrain genestealers were something like S7 with 4 attacks and W2 yet those all dropped in 2nd edition and they weren't as good anymore. I do have one fond memory of an opposing space wolves player firing his full cyclone missile launcher load at my 20 strong unit of purestrains in a game. I worried looking at the massive template at the time and my worry turned to laughter as he failed to wound a single 'stealer.

I did love the look of my modeled force and all the different genestealer hybrid minis available back in the day. Just not worth much on the table after the Rogue Trader days were over. The Chapterhouse suit came much, much later than the disappearance of the 'stealer cults on the table top. I occasionally consider rebuilding one, just from the challange point of tracking down all of those hybrids again and playing it as a counts as army from another book, but just don't know if I want to go through the trouble or not.

Skriker

squidhills wrote:

 Allod wrote:

Andy Chambers wrote:Alan Merrett, head of IP these days, has a bit of thing against genestealers [...]

Probably sums it up nicely.

Where was that from? I might like to read that article.

Seconded.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Genestealer Cults aren't really something suited to "warfare", but rather Inquisitor styled or Necromunda games.

Definitely this. Until I eventually sold off my genestealer cult army parts I would use them as a cawdor gang in necromunda. The leader, gangers and heavies were all hybrid minis while the juves were all human. Always looked really good on the table and fit well with the background of House Cawdor's "hidden secret".

Skriker

 Medium of Death wrote:

squidhills wrote:

 Allod wrote:

Andy Chambers wrote:Alan Merrett, head of IP these days, has a bit of thing against genestealers [...]

Probably sums it up nicely.

Where was that from? I might like to read that article.

Seconded.

http://www.conclaveofhar.com/hobby-articles.html

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
So I had a thought, in the Chapterhouse lawsuit we learned that GW really didn't do a good job of making sure they had the rights to artwork and other materials in the late 80s. So is it possible that they don't own the idea and have to keep away from it?

Nope. That's not the reason.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Didn't they show up for some Warhammer World event?

I seem to remember it being mentioned that all those are test sculpt by new sculptors to show off their talent and fill otherwise empty display cases.

Every year someone takes pictures of them and people get excited but we never see them.

Like this one for instance by Jes Goodwin from 2007

I know people like the idea of genestealer cults, but with the current fluff I just don't see how they fit.

We have a massive incursion from a race that typically blackens the sky with the organisms it drops onto the target planet. Why would such a force need to prepare the way by converting the populace into genestealers?

It just doesn't make sense and seems like a complete waste of time. I'm not sure they really made sense even in the Caiphias novels. The concept seems highly targeted towards how the hive cities function. Meaning that there are large areas in which people could easily go missing...

Cults really seem more inline with daemons and how they work. Not so much with a race that is essentially like a plague of locusts that simply hit an area, eat everything then move on.

I also kinda think that they don't fit in with the current biggerer and betterer armies of 40k.

Maybe if they rolled them into some sort of expanded kill team release?

I'm hoping they'll be an allied expansion for Tyranids.

clively wrote:

We have a massive incursion from a race that typically blackens the sky with the organisms it drops onto the target planet. Why would such a force need to prepare the way by converting the populace into genestealers?

Here's the thing: The 5th ed Nid book actually mentions Genestealers Cults and how the planets they're on that they're not wiped out, the population just marches into the Nid ships as willing cattle.

So they essentially exist not just to find new planets and bring the fleet, they're there to prepare the biomass of a planet for culling. Any planet that resists is potentially a waste of current biomass and energy, so willing feasts are welcome feasts.

I can see a Supplement: Genestealers for 'Nids acting like the new Inquisition supplement. It's the bridge that brings in other allies to the Nids, as these allies will be all the cultists/converts and the suborned units who don't know that they're fighting for the Hive.

 Psienesis wrote:
I can see a Supplement: Genestealers for 'Nids acting like the new Inquisition supplement. It's the bridge that brings in other allies to the Nids, as these allies will be all the cultists/converts and the suborned units who don't know that they're fighting for the Hive.

I'd accept at least a generic Codex: Cults, maybe with a base option that can ally with Imperials/Sisters with a heretical options with mutants/hybrids for Chaos/Nids.

Well... there are no heretical Sisters.

 Psienesis wrote:
Well... there are no heretical Sisters.

That's why the base section wouldn't necessarily be heretical. What, you don't want Frateris Militia back?

Thanks all!

You can see where I was coming from with GW having to drop references to Malal and other bits and bobs over the years because they didn't have their contracts in order so I wondered if the old GS cult article might be in the same boat.

Yeah i can see why they're not in tabletop 40k, although when people say a bunch of ragged cultists living in the sewer have no place in a war game that's just a sign of lack of imagination.

I mean in real life the Armies of the World have spent the last 12+ years fighting ragged cultists living in caves so surely a talented desinger could come up with a 'terrrorist/insurgent/freedom fighter' themed army that could challenge any takers.

One of my dream projects is to do 'Codex Cults' which can be Genestealer Cults, Chaos Cults or Imperial Cults (redmeptionists, people's crusade type thing). But that will have to wait till I buy GW, which requires either winning the lottery or waiting till mismanagement bring it down to a penny stock. Wonder which will happen first?

 Allod wrote:

Andy Chambers wrote:Alan Merrett, head of IP these days, has a bit of thing against genestealers [...]

Probably sums it up nicely.

Now that's the GW we all know and love! Professional, competent, making decisions based on market research and fan feed back!

No wonder they're the world's greatest toy soldier company!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skriker wrote:


I did love the look of my modeled force and all the different genestealer hybrid minis available back in the day. Just not worth much on the table after the Rogue Trader days were over. The Chapterhouse suit came much, much later than the disappearance of the 'stealer cults on the table top. I occasionally consider rebuilding one, just from the challange point of tracking down all of those hybrids again and playing it as a counts as army from another book, but just don't know if I want to go through the trouble or not.

Skriker

one reason I brought it up is I was digging through the graveyard of dead projects and came across my 'counts as tyranids' GS cult.

Cultists as 'gaunts, various vat-grown servitors as TMCs etc. I've not worked on it since 2009 and it's now 2 or 3 codexes behind.



Moving ever 2-3 years just sucks sometimes.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Well... there are no heretical Sisters.

That's why the base section wouldn't necessarily be heretical. What, you don't want Frateris Militia back?

C:AS + C:I -> IG Conscript Allies counts as Frateris Militia.

...and at double-FOC, I take Chenkov for "SitNW" and now I have Frateris Militia for days.

TBH genestealer cults wouldn't make sense in battle, the entire point of them is to render battle moot via having the planet ( or at least mostly) believe the tyranids to be gods. They simply line up on the street and get slaughtered easier than sheep.

I think the GSC armies are for when they only get "some" of a planet to think the Tyranids are gods, and they have to then fight the rest of the planet when gak goes down.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
TBH genestealer cults wouldn't make sense in battle, the entire point of them is to render battle moot via having the planet ( or at least mostly) believe the tyranids to be gods. They simply line up on the street and get slaughtered easier than sheep.

The fluff has references to genestealer cults fighting against hive fleets as genestealers are somewhat independant of the hive mind. The biggest benefit to the hive is that the cult destabilises the planet to the point it just can't defend itself properly. Also the "get it here" beacon is handy to guide the fleet to the next snack.

 Flinty wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
TBH genestealer cults wouldn't make sense in battle, the entire point of them is to render battle moot via having the planet ( or at least mostly) believe the tyranids to be gods. They simply line up on the street and get slaughtered easier than sheep.

The fluff has references to genestealer cults fighting against hive fleets as genestealers are somewhat independant of the hive mind. The biggest benefit to the hive is that the cult destabilises the planet to the point it just can't defend itself properly. Also the "get it here" beacon is handy to guide the fleet to the next snack.

I would pay good money for someone to LED a "Eat At Joe's" war-banner for their Genestealer Cult army...

The more likely reason is that GW is secretly run by a Genestealer Cult, thus they try to downplay their existence.

i always liked the imagery and story behind the cults.Never really thought they were all that effective though.
however, with the new allies thing that th ed brought, I think it would be a neat thing to add in as a possible allly for the bugs since they dont get the option for any others. I'm SURE they would make some money off of it if they were to release itas a supplement available for only guard and bugs.

I figured the answer was obvious....the cults don't really do any real fighting, just muck up a planet before the hive fleet arrives to disrupt any resistance and then pitches themselves into the first digestive pool they can find.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
TBH genestealer cults wouldn't make sense in battle, the entire point of them is to render battle moot via having the planet ( or at least mostly) believe the tyranids to be gods. They simply line up on the street and get slaughtered easier than sheep.

There were two reasons for them fighting in the original incarnation: the first was if the cult was found it had to defend itself, and the second was about disruption of the planet's defenses. The cult would grow and gain power until a powerful patriarch genestealer would be born and it would start sending a signal to draw in the hive fleet. When the hive fleet got the signal and started homing it, as it got closer it would trigger the cult to launch a surprise attack on planetary defenders to distract them. Thus when the hive fleet actually arrived the defenders would be focused on dealing with the cult and then suddenly the mycetic spores start dropping and hive fleet arrives and consumes everything, defenders and cult alike.

Skriker