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hey guys, I'm looking for an excuse for a space marine to be on the wrong side of a sector and am wondering: are there good daemons? I mean, the chaos gods represent an emotional factor. so, by right, there must be good ones, I say daemon, not god, because there is no way they would be powerful enough to be gods.
what do you think?

I always thought that the emotions of the warp are so imbalanced that what good entities that exist are immediately swallowed by evil demons.

Nurgle is secretly grimdark Santa Claus.

 A sane man wrote:
Nurgle is secretly grimdark Santa Claus.

That's not coal in your stocking.

I could see it being a possibility, quite a possibility, however I must note that such a creature would arguably take a different form in comparison to the other daemons. Along with that, keep in mind daemons aren't necessarily evil instead being orange and blue morality. Along with that, it seems that Lord of Changes enjoy propping up new people just as much as destroying new ones. There is always a chance that the emotions tied up with a ribbon would be a positive virtue and the minor gods that shift into and out of power could be perceived as benevolent "good" gods. Keep in mind though, 40k is grimdark. The world is terrible so the warp has become terrible. There are glimmers of good and hope, heck, there is Pawns of Chaos and in a FFG book a planet of tzeentch worshippers that live a life not that bad. Not perfect but sometimes they live better than the standard living of the Imperium. The main problem is that too many of the daemons would be built upon darker and bloodied emotions the positive elements seeped into them too minor to matter and in the ones it is heavily built into, there are too many others with dark emotions weaved in so that a good cause by a single daemon will be crushed by 3 others.

Personally I have a warband of Tzeentch and Khorne. Tzeentch likes to change things for the better for the Imperium before Khorne stomps in for war thus plunging it back into war and vice versa with Khorne causing war and then Tzeentch promoting hope or changing the impossible into possible. An eternal cat and mouse game

I was thinking, we KNOW their are daemons/gods of horrer, strength, war, pestilence yatta yatta, be cause of how 40k is, they would and are the most powerful. but I can imagine that if their is one for discipline or courage or honour or general kindness, they would be no where near as powerful as the others, but still, they'd EXIST. surely one of discipline would be powerful (not as powerful as the gods) but powered by marines and elder, ithey'd have to have SOME power, enough to teleport a marine?

 the shrouded lord wrote:
I was thinking, we KNOW their are daemons/gods of horrer, strength, war, pestilence yatta yatta, be cause of how 40k is, they would and are the most powerful. but I can imagine that if their is one for discipline or courage or honour or general kindness, they would be no where near as powerful as the others, but still, they'd EXIST. surely one of discipline would be powerful (not as powerful as the gods) but powered by marines and elder, ithey'd have to have SOME power, enough to teleport a marine?

We've never seen anything to suggest or support the opinion of their being 'good' daemons, who anyway have a blue and orange morality system and are not similar at all to human societies. The best you'll get is a demon seeking mutual gain.

Have the 'good' aspects of the big four been retconned?

Like Khorne representing honor, nurgle life?

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Have the 'good' aspects of the big four been retconned?

Like Khorne representing honor, nurgle life?

-bashes head-

I never understood where the hell that came from. Khorne was never the god of honor.

All the daemons are both good and evil. In fact daemons in 40K are imbalanced aspects of life. So a warrior fighting to protect his family from wolves is just as much an example of khorne as a murderer who eats his victims.

The daemons and in fact 40K in general are neither good nor bad just so extreme in their actions that they cause very bad things to happen. A good example are daemons of nurgle who universally love their victims and honestly want to share what they consider the greatest gift possible; the embrace of father nurgle. They are literally the most huggable group in 40K...

It actually is not beyond a group of daemons to take actions that would be beneficial to a populace but it is just as likely for a group of daemons to show up and mind rape you but have all the best intentions while doing so.

Then to top all this moral ambiguity off is the fact that daemons are not humans and in fact are not even biological. If you kill a plant to eat or a chicken to eat are you evil? Both of those feel pain and recognize individuals who harm them. Many daemons are so far beyond human comprehension they are like a human is to a chicken or a bean sprout.

I don't wanna be a bean sprout.
In all what I'm asking is, would a Daemon teleport an astartes to save a (completely normal, and loyal) planet and why would it do so?

No they wont. In fascinated by the effort of some people to make chaos forces "good ones...not so bad...just misunderstood".

But yeah...maybe they would do it. Teleport astartes to planet, let them save it. "Hey, see, we are not so bad...come to us, we have cookies...yes, good marine...do you want extra pair of legs, eye, wings or some leaking puss?...and, maybe those pesky humans need to learn truth about our saviour, lord tzeentch..."

 the shrouded lord wrote:
I don't wanna be a bean sprout.
In all what I'm asking is, would a Daemon teleport an astartes to save a (completely normal, and loyal) planet and why would it do so?

Well there was that time where there was a rebelling governor that prayed to slaanesh for a way out. A Keeper of secret pops up and gives him a teleport homer.... that happened to be for the DA that then deepstruck in catching the culprit.... oh and it was actually the Changeling xD

Sure but it would probably have it's own reasons which diverge completely from the space marine. Is the SM actions going to cause more blood shed (ie keep the planet from falling without a fight)? Could his actions create a situation 1000 years in the future to benefit a certain Tzeentch plan? Did a nurgle disease come with the SM? Will the planet get up to some serious partying once they win?

Just because you are loyal to the IoM doesn't mean you are not doing what the chaos gods want.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
I was thinking, we KNOW their are daemons/gods of horrer, strength, war, pestilence yatta yatta, be cause of how 40k is, they would and are the most powerful. but I can imagine that if their is one for discipline or courage or honour or general kindness, they would be no where near as powerful as the others, but still, they'd EXIST. surely one of discipline would be powerful (not as powerful as the gods) but powered by marines and elder, ithey'd have to have SOME power, enough to teleport a marine?

Thing is Khrone actually has martial pride and the sorts, tzeentch is the god of hope, aspiration, and dreams, slaanesh is the god of perfection, art, pleasure, and I think there is something like Nurgle is acceptance. The notion is that they have these redeeming qualities but it is drowned out with negativity. Then again it could also be they started with it but then flanderized like a fish floppin


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 UlrikDecado wrote:
No they wont. In fascinated by the effort of some people to make chaos forces "good ones...not so bad...just misunderstood".

But yeah...maybe they would do it. Teleport astartes to planet, let them save it. "Hey, see, we are not so bad...come to us, we have cookies...yes, good marine...do you want extra pair of legs, eye, wings or some leaking puss?...and, maybe those pesky humans need to learn truth about our saviour, lord tzeentch..."

Pretty much what other people said. They won't fight for the Imeprium per say. Why would they? To daemons all they are is what makes them exist but they aren't the only ones. They aren't really bad.... nor are they good... they don't really even have a choice in the matter. They are emotions wrapped together and left loose. For example, would you call Tyranids evil? Not really, they are just wild bugs that want to eat. Evolution at its greatest/worst. Daemons too are just the extremes of emotion crashing into reality. But evil? That's like calling most lovecraftian monsters evil. They don't think like humans, they aren't humans. Ignoring the fact that good and bad are flawed concepts to begin with, most things middle at grey and people forget there is some fluff where chaos is actually beneficial to a race heck sometimes a better life even! And then there are planets that I don't think anybody would want to talk about (I'm looking at you slaanesh planet where individuals slaughter eachother and cannibalize eachother to be the greatest hunter). They just don't think like us far too concerned with their blue-orange system to really care. They do what they do because it fits their interest. If they help the Imperium, it is because either it gives them the jollies for whatever reason or it serves their purpose (maybe by doing that it buffs their god and thus them and the sorts).

EDIT: Oh yeah and slaanesh is the god of love
EDIT EDIT: Then again it seems like in older fluff they opted more for order versus chaos but as time has progressed they have increasingly leaned on making it good versus evil (or evil versus eviler) propping up christian interpretations of daemons.

What about using mythology?

Do some search for your favorite god, in a "general" way: the God of War, the God of Love and so on. Look at their followers and write something about a bunch of demon-like giants in baroque armour coming from the sky to destroy the gods and the culture they protect, in the name of a "God-Emperor" nobody ever heard about. People tend to forget that after 10000 years of dark-age, almost nobody knows about anything in the setting.

Example: Spartans and Romans (the Republic) actively worshipped the God of War. Imagine Rome meets Marines. They are over two meters tall giants that spit accid and have unstoppable weapons. They are, obviously, something that cannot be stopped without the help of the gods. So the priests do a massive sacrifice to Ares/Mars/Khorne (gladiator style, of course, that´s the way), and a young teenager prepared since birth become a vessel for the will of the gods. Read The First Heretic here, but also mythology; GW didn´t invent this.

Through this messenger, the people is told about the war in the sky. About the true gods and one of their many enemies: the false god that wants to destroy all that is good and sacred. And the people march to battle, using the weapons provided by the warriors of the God of War, eager to fight for freedom. And blessed warriors descend from the sky, the World Eaters they call themselves, former brothers of the invaders, to lead the people to war.

You don´t really need to "make the gods good". They are already both good and evil, it is just a matter of perspective.

Recommended book: Daemon World, by Ben Counter. It is about a world inside the Eye of Terror.

But mostly mythology.

There is Malal, he hates chaos more than most marines, I could see a team up between Malal and a particularly desperate, particularly heretical (open minded) space marine.

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
There is Malal, he hates chaos more than most marines, I could see a team up between Malal and a particularly desperate, particularly heretical (open minded) space marine.

Hmmm. I will look him up. Why does he hate chaos?

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
There is Malal, he hates chaos more than most marines, I could see a team up between Malal and a particularly desperate, particularly heretical (open minded) space marine.

Malal's not canon, he was retconned a long while ago. Malice is canon, but he's little more than a greater daemon but still a part of Chaos.

You could go the Dragon Age: Origins route. In that universe, there were Demons of Sloth, of Rage, of Desire. All the stuff we already know. BUT there were entities of Friendship, Joy and all that stuff. THe difference there was however, that the "evil" ones actively sought out the mortal plane to play with their toys, just as the Primal Annihilator does. There is no fluff I know of that would prevent you to say there are entities in the warp that represent the "good" emotions of mankind, but these take rarely any interest and therefore are hardly, if at all, known to a select few.

There are no 'good' deamons. Neither are there 'evil' ones.
Good and evil are very subjective terms.
In order to answer your question, we should first know what your definition of a 'good' deamon is.

In the Horus Hersey book about Magnus the red, thousand sons I think, Magnus is trying to reach terra via the web way but is unable to break it open whilst in the warp. He almost dies but a ''benevolent force' comes to his aid an lends him strength, confirming what Magnus had always suspected about there being not so rip you apart consume you soul like beings out there.
T

All of the Chaos Gods have "good" aspects, however they are all taken to excess.

Everything in the Universe has an equal and opposite force. Perhaps there is an opposite dimension to the warp, full of Xeno's that are made of a substance that is the polar opposite of the essence that Chaos Daemons are made of. Maybe even populated with "good" Xeno's

I'm going with malice. He sounds awesome to have as the thing that some of my chapter secretly worships. Plus it's just chaos-y enough to piss off my chapter master.
I'l post what I come up with in relation to a "conversation" between the marine and malice.

In terms of overall writing, ask yourself why you need a daemon. The whole line of getting help from a daemon for a good guy reeks of bad cliche and Mary Sue-ism.

1. I'm doing it the Daemon approaches ( or rather sucks into the warp) the marine.
2. What's a Mary sue?

For a quick explanation, a "Mary Sue" is a term used in writing for a fan character who happens to be good at everything, and breaks the story setting that they are in. They are the characters who have every power, and then some, and they do things that no other character can do (such as say, be buddies with a daemon).

 curran12 wrote:
For a quick explanation, a "Mary Sue" is a term used in writing for a fan character who happens to be good at everything, and breaks the story setting that they are in. They are the characters who have every power, and then some, and they do things that no other character can do (such as say, be buddies with a daemon).

So, khaldor draigo?
Note: once I write up some stuff, you'll know he sure as hell don't wanna be friends with it. PROFANITIES!! THEY'RE EVERYWHERE!!

But is he still benefitting from it? Remember the setting. Do you think that he'll just pop out and the Imperium will be okay with this because 'oh this daemon is chill and helped me'?

Oh, right. Some khorne "dudes" are about to launch an incursion on the Planet. Malice thinks it will be beneficial (funny) to everyone (him) if a single space marine of a little known chapter stops it.