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London may well need it, simply because due to decades of idiocy, so much wealth is centred on it, it's the lynchpin of our economy.
I work in Docklands, and this place is the capital of Europe's banking capital. When Brexit happens, there's a real risk this area could get verrrrry quiet.
Plus, London did vote Remain. I mostly object to areas that vote Leave now demanding special treatment to make up for their act of self sabotage. If you're dependant on EU Grants, you shouldn't have vote Leave.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mind you, I say decades of Londoncentric idiocy.....
If it hadn't, I wonder if it'd be a Leave vote after all? It's the deprived areas that are hacked off (and not without justification), and been told it's the EU's fault (and not Westminster. Not at all. Must be the EU. Honest, Guv)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 15:12:30
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
The 2 major places that voted leave are the North, and Wales. Both of whom are regarded as the poorest parts of the UK. London, Scotland and Ireland voted remain.
DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+ Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
Grimsby isn't dependant on EU grants, though half the cost of their shiny new fish market was paid by the EU Fishing Development Fund.
Grimsby's problem is that they export a lot of fish to the EU, either fresh -- thus liable to spoilage if any customs delays -- or processed, which under new tariffs will become a lot more expensive and liable to be replaced by the EU processing locally.
Gosh! It's almost as if kicking yourself out of the world's biggest, richest free trade area might be a bad idea if you want to do big, rich, free trading.
They say that all of the uk is leaving both the customs union and the single market. They also say that there won't be a hard boarder between the north and south of Ireland, or between Northern Ireland and the rest of the uk. Did they say how they did this exactly?
Future War Cultist wrote: They say that all of the uk is leaving both the customs union and the single market. They also say that there won't be a hard boarder between the north and south of Ireland, or between Northern Ireland and the rest of the uk. Did they say how they did this exactly?
Future War Cultist wrote: They say that all of the uk is leaving both the customs union and the single market. They also say that there won't be a hard boarder between the north and south of Ireland, or between Northern Ireland and the rest of the uk. Did they say how they did this exactly?
Customs equivalence and single market access. It's like being in the customs union and single market but with a different name.
(This above post contains: Sarcasm, nuts and flu capsules.)
But we can veto it... wait.
A Veto which is going to be replaced by Qualified Majority Voting.
Only if it doesn't get vetoed
Which none of our pro-EU mainstream parties prior to the Referendum would have done.
Remember, David Cameron was pro-EU and pledged to campaign to stay in the EU even if he couldn't get any meaningful concessions or reform from the EU prior to the Referendum (which he did not).
If we'd voted to Remain, the EU would have taken that as a Carte Blanche to push even more Integration like QMV and the pro-EUPM Cameron would have conceded it (perhaps in exchange for a few bribes), like how Gordon Brown signed the EU Constitution Lisbon Treaty.
For Euro-sceptics, it was a Catch-22:
Do we vote to Remain and trust our pro_EU parties who all have a track record of ceding British Sovereignty to the EU, therefore risking that our Government might agree to give up our Veto for QMV? Or we vote to Leave and not trust our untrustworthy (from a Eurosceptic POV) Parties?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 17:57:05
Future War Cultist wrote: They say that all of the uk is leaving both the customs union and the single market. They also say that there won't be a hard boarder between the north and south of Ireland, or between Northern Ireland and the rest of the uk. Did they say how they did this exactly?
What they've effectively done is punted the Irish ball to the third round, the one on trade. Everything said today had the clear and express caveat 'Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed'. In other words, everything is provisional. Its all just statements of intent. What has been actually agreed is that given an eventual trade agreement being successful, we're willing to pay about 40 billion in meeting our costs, and we've hammered out how all our citizens will function in regards to each other post-Brexit.
The next step is establishing the interim period. So they'll sit down, and draw up a timetable for a phased general departure from EU structures and laws, and guidelines on how trade should function whilst the trade agreement is being hammered out. This should be the shortest and easiest phase.That done, we'll move to the final step, which will be using the guidelines established in phase 1 & 2 to sit down and work out exactly how trade will work post-Brexit. This will likely take a number of years, and is in effect, us doing a Canada or Japan, and negotiating a custom trade agreement with the EU.
I would suspect that the eight year expiry date for the involvement of the ECJ will likely be used as the intended cessation point for all British involvement in the EU. In which case, the whole procedure will take a decade from beginning to end. But you know something? I'm happy with that. If that gets us solutions that work for everyone, minimal disruption to all economies involved, and restores the goodwill on both sides, that is fine by me. Time is one thing that we are not short of, precluding nuclear armageddon. An initial staggered soft Brexit that gradually slides into a custom tailored hard brexit is very much the best solution for all parties involved.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 17:57:03
On reflection, and having read some of the agreement, it's a terrible deal - concentrated bollocks.
8 years for the ECJ? I'm reluctant to give them 8 minutes, never mind 8 years, and it looks as though EU citizens will have better rights in the UK than I do in the land of my birth
Angry? Yes. Surprised? No. When faced with what's best for Britain, and what's best for the Conservative party, then party comes first every time. Add a Remain supporting, lame duck PM to the mix, and I'm only surprised May didn't suggest giving Hadrian's Wall back to the Italians.
I will say to my fellow Brexit supporting dakka members, is that the good news is that this is not legally binding - it's only an agreement for the basis of discussing an agreement i.e trade deal.
Hopefully, the whole thing will collapse, because the noises coming out the EU parliament is along the lines of wanting more ECJ in Britain after Brexit, which cannot be allowed for even a nano-second.
The battle ain't over yet. Predict nothing, expect anything.
Future War Cultist wrote: They say that all of the uk is leaving both the customs union and the single market. They also say that there won't be a hard boarder between the north and south of Ireland, or between Northern Ireland and the rest of the uk. Did they say how they did this exactly?
What they've effectively done is punted the Irish ball to the third round, the one on trade. Everything said today had the clear and express caveat 'Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed'. In other words, everything is provisional. Its all just statements of intent. What has been actually agreed is that given an eventual trade agreement being successful, we're willing to pay about 40 billion in meeting our costs, and we've hammered out how all our citizens will function in regards to each other post-Brexit.
The next step is establishing the interim period. So they'll sit down, and draw up a timetable for a phased general departure from EU structures and laws, and guidelines on how trade should function whilst the trade agreement is being hammered out. This should be the shortest and easiest phase.That done, we'll move to the final step, which will be using the guidelines established in phase 1 & 2 to sit down and work out exactly how trade will work post-Brexit. This will likely take a number of years, and is in effect, us doing a Canada or Japan, and negotiating a custom trade agreement with the EU.
I would suspect that the eight year expiry date for the involvement of the ECJ will likely be used as the intended cessation point for all British involvement in the EU. In which case, the whole procedure will take a decade from beginning to end. But you know something? I'm happy with that. If that gets us solutions that work for everyone, minimal disruption to all economies involved, and restores the goodwill on both sides, that is fine by me. Time is one thing that we are not short of, precluding nuclear armageddon. An initial staggered soft Brexit that gradually slides into a custom tailored hard brexit is very much the best solution for all parties involved.
8 years is an eternity in politics, though. Who knows what will hapen to the EU, the UK, or the wider world in 8 years...As we all know, these talks don't happen in a vacuum.
Although, I do agree with the basic gist of your summary.
The most important and symbolic thing here though is we're leaving the EU. We're at the airport. Yes, we could still turn around and go home, and that's a danger, but the very dint that we're preparing to board a plane for a new destination is a victory in itself.
The 19th and 20th centuries belonged to Europe and the USA. The 21st century is Asia's.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 18:08:18
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Everyone in the UK should live under the same law, for better or for worse. May and her crowd are just making the worst job of this, sad. She doesn’t have any real authority, she threw away her majority in the house and is held to the whims of dubious allies and various quacks in her own party. She’s only there because there’s no one with the competency or gumption to challenge her.
Howard A Treesong wrote: Everyone in the UK should live under the same law, for better or for worse. May and her crowd are just making the worst job of this, sad. She doesn’t have any real authority, she threw away her majority in the house and is held to the whims of dubious allies and various quacks in her own party. She’s only there because there’s no one with the competency or gumption to challenge her.
The Conservative party rolled up the white flag to A.Hitler in 1938, botched Suez, took us into the EEC in the first place, gave us Black Wednesday, scuppered Irish Home Rule, fethed up the trains and the housing situation, and think that Bojo is worthy of high office. x 1000
They have been nothing but a milestone around this nation's neck for centuries, but for reasons I will never understand, even if I live for a million years, people still vote for them...
Why? Why? Why?
This zombie party should have been swept away years ago. A genuine Conservative party I can handle, but not this mockery.
Edmund Burke must be spinning in his grave.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 18:20:24
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Future War Cultist wrote: They say that all of the uk is leaving both the customs union and the single market. They also say that there won't be a hard boarder between the north and south of Ireland, or between Northern Ireland and the rest of the uk. Did they say how they did this exactly?
What they've effectively done is punted the Irish ball to the third round, the one on trade. Everything said today had the clear and express caveat 'Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed'. In other words, everything is provisional. Its all just statements of intent. What has been actually agreed is that given an eventual trade agreement being successful, we're willing to pay about 40 billion in meeting our costs, and we've hammered out how all our citizens will function in regards to each other post-Brexit.
Read between the lines.
49. The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom's intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.
50. In the absence of agreed solutions, as set out in the previous paragraph, the United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, unless, consistent with the 1998 Agreement, the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly agree that distinct arrangements are appropriate for Northern Ireland. In all circumstances, the United Kingdom will continue to ensure the same unfettered access for Northern Ireland's businesses to the whole of the United Kingdom internal market.
"Fully aligned" on one side and "unfettered access" on the other.
Short of taking Ireland out of the EU there's just not much to do and keep both sides' promises.
49. The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom's intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.
50. In the absence of agreed solutions, as set out in the previous paragraph, the United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, unless, consistent with the 1998 Agreement, the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly agree that distinct arrangements are appropriate for Northern Ireland. In all circumstances, the United Kingdom will continue to ensure the same unfettered access for Northern Ireland's businesses to the whole of the United Kingdom internal market.
This is the critical part of the agreement - in that no agreement has been reached. It effectively parks the issue with May/Davis believing that a trade deal will get over the barrier. But if anything it shows they are simply living in cloud cuckoo land (still). They obviously think that UK trade is so important to the EU that they will agree some form of "closed borders but looks like open type of approach".
The thing that will haunt May by nutcase hard Brexit MPs is this:-
In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.
The EU simply have the UK over a barrel now. They must be laughing all the way home (not that I am opposed to such a thing because I support the EU rather than the UK in this whole stupidity). The EU can simply walk away from anything they don't like. The UK then has only two options - go full hard Wrexit or simply accept that it continues to be part of the EU (except it doesn't get a say) and complies with all the regulations. Whatever bargaining chips the UK had have disappeared completely.
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"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
I don't see the problem? It says that the goal is to 'achieve this through the overall EU-UK relationship'. Also known as punting the Irish question forward to being part of stage 3, the general trade agreement.
If the Irish issue fails to be solved as part of that more general negotiation, then that'll be the point at which 'the UK will propose specific solutions' (aka, negotiations will begin purely on the Irish question alone).
It's only then, if negotiations fail there, that the UK commits to 'maintain full alignment', but it leaves itself the backdoor of being able to institute fresh changes/laws so long as it can get the Northern Ireland Executive to agree to them. In other words, Westminster would then collaborate with the Northern Ireland Executive on what new laws and regulations would be put in place at the border. As it should be, really.
Given that this entire procedure will take the best part of the next decade, I see no reason to start speculating now about what happens if those two prior rounds of negotiation fail. Trying to figure out what regulations might be appropriate to put in place subsequent to that is utterly pointless given we're only just starting to delineate the framework of the interim period! This is all going to be a long and convoluted process, and given that the option is quite clearly there for us to do as we will (so long as it is in collaboration with the NIA) if all falls through, there's no real issue. Anyone either celebrating or complaining that 'We'll be bound into the EU framework with no say' is missing or ignoring half the text.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/08 19:58:10
Ketara wrote: I don't see the problem? It says that the goal is to 'achieve this through the overall EU-UK relationship'. Also known as punting the Irish question forward to being part of stage 3, the general trade agreement.
If the Irish issue fails to be solved as part of that more general negotiation, then that'll be the point at which 'the UK will propose specific solutions' (aka, negotiations will begin purely on the Irish question alone).
Except the EU doesn't have to agree to any of it and can walk away at any point. The overall EU-UK relationship for the EU's perspective could simply be open trade, free movement. It doesn't even have to negotiate. It can simply say "unless you allow free movement / free trade across the border we won't accept anything". The UK then has to propose something that complies with that. If it doesn't then they have to fall to the back stop position, i.e. free movement and free trade across the Irish border. As soon as you have that then you have to open it up to everyone because our own legislation guarantees equal rights (Scotland, London etc would demand it) - and if you don't the Ireland/NI then becomes the trade hub of the UK.
They have put a back stop position in the terms that only benefits the EU (again not that I am opposed to this). In negotiating terms that's a 'slam dunk' victory because you have just put the opposite side in an impossible position. The only way they can escape is going full hard Wrexit and even they know that is political and economical suicide for the UK.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
And if the EU walks blocks all Irish progress during two prior rounds of negotiations (which they're unlikely to do if we have a reasonable trade agreement, Ireland has needs too and is a full member), we can still put any regulations or restrictions we want in place. They just have to go via the NIA.
At which point, Westminster would doubtless put a bill to the NIA with a detailed regulations and adjustments that would have been worked out in the intervening decade, get it passed/adjust it until it was able to be passed/bung them lots of money/subsidies to pass it, and we'll have a hard border along Ireland which complies with our more general trade agreement with the EU. The real final power brokers on the Irish question are the NIA if all else fails, not the EU.
Which is as it should be.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/08 20:29:01
Ketara wrote: And if the EU walks blocks all Irish progress during two prior rounds of negotiations (which they're unlikely to do if we have a reasonable trade agreement, Ireland has needs too and is a full member), we can still put any regulations or restrictions we want in place. They just have to go via the NIA.
At which point, Westminster would doubtless put a bill to the NIA with a detailed regulations and adjustments that would have been worked out in the intervening decade, get it passed/adjust it until it was able to be passed/bung them lots of money/subsidies to pass it, and we'll have a hard border along Ireland which complies with our more general trade agreement with the EU. The real final power brokers on the Irish question are the NIA if all else fails, not the EU.
Which is as it should be.
Which is something the Westminster would never countenance because of the issues that could cause and issues with the Good Friday agreement. There might still not be a NIA (or it might collapse again). Yes the Ireland does have trade with NI but it is the movement that is important. If you introduce free trade/movement through the NI border with an NIA then you still have the same result. Free trade and movement and you then come back to the same item that you are treating different parts of the UK (which is also against acts and even this agreement).
Westminster will not again accept a hard border with Ireland in any way. The EU know this. Hence any agreement has to be to the benefit of the EU, otherwise they can just say 'no'. The UK government will not accept going back to border checks. The UK then has no option to accept EU customs and laws.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Howard A Treesong wrote: Everyone in the UK should live under the same law, for better or for worse. May and her crowd are just making the worst job of this, sad. She doesn’t have any real authority, she threw away her majority in the house and is held to the whims of dubious allies and various quacks in her own party. She’s only there because there’s no one with the competency or gumption to challenge her.
We already don't, and haven't for centuries. The Scottish legal system is separate and different to England's. The devolved administrations have various powers of setting different conditions, effectively local laws, on things such as abortion, university fees and NHS prescription charges.
I don't really have a problem with that. I believe in the principle of subsidiarity.
Ironically, the insistence of the EU on making crucial laws (on trade, human rights, etc) consistent in their effect across the whole EU, offers the best chance of some kind of "same law" if that is what you think we need.
If the Irish issue fails to be solved as part of that more general negotiation, then that'll be the point at which 'the UK will propose specific solutions' (aka, negotiations will begin purely on the Irish question alone).
Such as? The UK has bound their hands by promising two mutually exclusive sets of things.
They can't keep the integrity of the Irish single market and the single UK market without effectively keeping EU rules. It's the Brexit Travel paradox again.
Unless they manage to convince Ireland to tag along in their post-EU adventure, that is.
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I think you underestimate the ability of the EU and British negotiators to hammer out a remarkably complicated, flexible and acceptable arrangement.
We should be honest and recognise that Hard Brexiteers and the DUP are the key obstacles to overcome, and they are minorities though endowed with greater power than their democratic mandate would indicate.
To put it in plainer language, if the rest of the nations could summon the courage to tell these people to feth off and die, the problem would be easily solved.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 20:57:26
To put it in plainer language, if the rest of the nations could summon the courage to tell these people to feth off and die, the problem would be easily solved.
Of course we wouldn't be leaving the EU and causing untold harm to the Country's future if that was the case!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: I think you underestimate the ability of the EU and British negotiators to hammer out a remarkably complicated, flexible and acceptable arrangement.
It's not that they can't, more that the UK will always be subject to the idea that if no agreement is thrashed out then things fall into place that we remain part of the customs union/open trade. Now I am not opposed to such a thing and think that will mean a more seamless rejoining of the EU when the population 'migrates' towards the current pro-EU young/educated and the older/less educated (generally) anti-EU ideas.
On the other hand what the UK has done here has effectively tied its laces together whilst trying to win a 100m sprint (of course not that many people would notice given it has put its underpants on its head and pencils in it's nostrils). The EU have very little reason to give much ground because the back stop position is set so high.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/08 21:07:14
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
The fundamental problem, as I pointed out earlier, that there are groups of Hard Brexiteers who either are in a state of magical thinking about the whole outcome, or don't care if there is a disaster because they think they will benefit anyway (e.g. become Prime Minister, or keep their off-shore tax haven, and so on.)
On an opposite note, Radio 4 went to Stoke-on-Trent today to get the reaction of locals in what they said was the UK centre of Remain voting (70+%.)
Frankly it was appalling to hear how uninformed and deluded the interviewees were about the whole issue!
It made me ashamed to be a Remainer. But possibly the BBC selected completely biased recordings.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: £1,500,000,000 so some religious fundamentalist nut jobs can screw everything worse than it was before.
And all because Maybot is so shockingly incompetent.
Some great race/religious hate you got going there. Throw in a little stereotyping and a that makes for a lovely comment there buddy. A shake of ignorance and tadada!
I await your evidential list of flat earthing, hanging homosexuals and being scared of old ladies with warts. Add in a a guardian article on bad Northern Ireland unionists just for a laugh too!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: I think you underestimate the ability of the EU and British negotiators to hammer out a remarkably complicated, flexible and acceptable arrangement.
We should be honest and recognise that Hard Brexiteers and the DUP are the key obstacles to overcome, and they are minorities though endowed with greater power than their democratic mandate would indicate.
To put it in plainer language, if the rest of the nations could summon the courage to tell these people to feth off and die, the problem would be easily solved.
But then again when you have a MOD using language like ’feth off and die’ you just know these are good people right here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 21:33:36
I know someone from Stoke. They do not have good things to say about the people there. It's akin to too much of a small family group all living together for too long and getting too friendly.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: £1,500,000,000 so some religious fundamentalist nut jobs can screw everything worse than it was before.
And all because Maybot is so shockingly incompetent.
Some great race/religious hate you got going there. Throw in a little stereotyping and a that makes for a lovely comment there buddy. A shake of ignorance and tadada!
I await your evidential list of flat earthing, hanging homosexuals and being scared of old ladies with warts. Add in a a guardian article on bad Northern Ireland unionists just for a laugh too!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: I think you underestimate the ability of the EU and British negotiators to hammer out a remarkably complicated, flexible and acceptable arrangement.
We should be honest and recognise that Hard Brexiteers and the DUP are the key obstacles to overcome, and they are minorities though endowed with greater power than their democratic mandate would indicate.
To put it in plainer language, if the rest of the nations could summon the courage to tell these people to feth off and die, the problem would be easily solved.
But then again when you have a MOD using language like ’feth off and die’ you just know these are good people right here.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: £1,500,000,000 so some religious fundamentalist nut jobs can screw everything worse than it was before.
And all because Maybot is so shockingly incompetent.
Some great race/religious hate you got going there. Throw in a little stereotyping and a that makes for a lovely comment there buddy. A shake of ignorance and tadada!
I await your evidential list of flat earthing, hanging homosexuals and being scared of old ladies with warts. Add in a a guardian article on bad Northern Ireland unionists just for a laugh too!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: I think you underestimate the ability of the EU and British negotiators to hammer out a remarkably complicated, flexible and acceptable arrangement.
We should be honest and recognise that Hard Brexiteers and the DUP are the key obstacles to overcome, and they are minorities though endowed with greater power than their democratic mandate would indicate.
To put it in plainer language, if the rest of the nations could summon the courage to tell these people to feth off and die, the problem would be easily solved.
But then again when you have a MOD using language like ’feth off and die’ you just know these are good people right here.
Ad Hominem fallacy.
Didn't you tell a Remainer to "Tone it down please" for using similar language a week ago?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 23:11:35
So? We're taking about how Israel discriminates their own people (non citizens but they live in an area under their control where Israel has a sovereign claim to).
The neighbours are a dodgy bunch but that doesn't give you any right to keep your daughter in the basement. Citizenship or real Independence, there's no middle ground.
Frankly, we're talking about Israel, a place where even their fellow Jews are subhuman if they're the wrong brand of Judaism.
