Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This thread is for discussing your personal firearms and their uses. It is not for discussing politics, military procurement, the morality behind carrying weapons etc. Stick to the topic please or be removed from the discussion.

Alright folks, to get the thread going again, I've got a question for you.

Say you have got a historical weapon, as for example my SVT40, my brother's MAS36, an older hunting design such as a Darne... or whatever.

Do you mind making modifications on them or do you prefer leaving them as they are?

Personally I can't even begin to consider making any modification. I've been often urged to drill my SVT40 to fit a scope on it for example, as it is apparently a relatively simple operation, or to mount a scout scope mount on my mosin nagant, but... no, I just can't get over it and do such modifications! I like keeping them as they are.

What about you?

Rule Number #1: Don't Bubba your collectable firearms.

I wouldn't consider putting an accurate reproduction scope on a gun that did/could have it to be a problem, but putting some modern abomination is where the line should be drawn. IE: reproduction PU scope on a Mosen = ok. Putting some rail system to allow a modern scope = not fine.

If you have an SVT40 I wouldn't touch it. That thing is fairly rare as is. Mosins are less so, but its still a shame every time someone slaps a polymer stock on one.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Say you have got a historical weapon, as for example my SVT40, my brother's MAS36, an older hunting design such as a Darne... or whatever.

Do you mind making modifications on them or do you prefer leaving them as they are?

I think the key word is "historical." When guns were "bubbafied," it was because they were current production and there was a glut on the market. Modern collectors have a fit over sporterized service rifles, but those were the cheapest options open for hunting or target shooting, which was why they were modified.

Notice that contemporaneous weapons that were not flooding the market were left "as is." Not a lot of people modded their war trophy Lugers or Type 14 Nambus.

Some weapons were rechambered, and I'm specifically thinking of "shaved" Webley Mark VI revolvers that were converted to take full moon clips for .45 ACP. Again, we hate it now, but at the time the UK had piles and piles of these and was transitioning to the Enfield in .38. Since .455 wasn't a US cartridge, the conversion made sense from a marketing standpoint (though not from a safety one!).

To put it another way, if surplus M9s were routed through the CMP at bargain-basement prices, I'd be tempted to get one and modify the crap out of it without any remorse.

A hundred years later, people would complain about it, though.

M9s are still produced though. The SKS and Mosin are not produced anymore*

*SKS are still produced in China in small numbers but that is hardly enough to justify putting a beautiful SKS in a polymer stock.

Truthfully, the blame lies on "hunting rifles" being hideously expensive. Thus leading to people who just want a cheap rifle with a scope on it to molest historical relics

 Grey Templar wrote:
M9s are still produced though. The SKS and Mosin are not produced anymore*

*SKS are still produced in China in small numbers but that is hardly enough to justify putting a beautiful SKS in a polymer stock.

Truthfully, the blame lies on "hunting rifles" being hideously expensive. Thus leading to people who just want a cheap rifle with a scope on it to molest historical relics

If you save the original stock, I don't see the problem. I have replacement grips for several vintage pistols because the originals were falling apart. To prevent further damage, I removed them. I can always switch them back.

As to the SKS ever being considered rare or vintage, I doubt it. It's kind of like Mosin rifles. Yeah, modding them sounds terrible until you consider that something like 38 million of them were made.

Chinese production of the SKS has all but ceased because they already made a gazillion of them. The only reason they aren't being converted into coat racks is the US put an import ban on the. If that ever went away, people would be making bicycles out of them.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Do you mind making modifications on them or do you prefer leaving them as they are?

Leave it as-is unless it's a reversible conversion and you keep the original parts. Why damage a weapon where the value is entirely in being a historical piece? Now that surplus prices have climbed beyond new production stuff there's no point in modifying a historical weapon to make a more expensive and less effective version of something you could buy new off the shelf from any random gun shop.

Pretty strong reaction here but that's how I view it as well.

My SVT40 is a 1943 infantry version, hence why it can't accommodate a scope anymore.

Same for my mosin nagant.

Only time I thought about making a bubba abomination was when I stumbled both accross a cheap mosin nagant because the wood was damaged beyond repair and a second hand archangel stock. But in the end I passed my turn on that one.

On the other hand, I was thinking about buying another AK (maybe a polish wbp one for instance) and kit it from the ground up just for laughs and giggles as a long term project.

First because it sounds stupidly fun, second, because I'll have to stop buying guns at some point an I could see instead buying parts steadily... but that wouldn't be a "historical" firearm so everything is good.

Could still have a go at my saiga for that matter but I'm happy with it as it is.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Same for my mosin nagant.

Only time I thought about making a bubba abomination was when I stumbled both accross a cheap mosin nagant because the wood was damaged beyond repair and a second hand archangel stock. But in the end I passed my turn on that one.

Mosin rifles are still plentiful here and often cheap. Not as cheap as they were in the 1990s, when you could them for $100 or less, but Enemy at the Gates convinced people that they were elite sniper weapons.

A lot comes down to what you are dealing with. The M44 versions are mostly post-war, so the coolness of a wartime rifle just isn't there. A 1941 production rifle, on the other hand, will have seen things.

As has been pointed out, surplus is now high enough that there no cost advantage in modifying it. Cheaper to buy a used hunting rifle online.

Seems to be a lot of agreement on this topic (I feel the same too, my surplus guns only get mods that can be reversed). So how about shooting your historical weapons?

I know some people collect firearms more to look at and own a rare/old model than actually shoot. One of the local folks I've shot with has a ton of obscure bolt action rifles, Chinese mausers, that kind of stuff.

To me it's a tool though, and while I appreciate people who preserve old things, these are made to be used. I wouldn't toss my nicely blued Tokarev in a pile of gravel, but it's not a safe queen either.

 ScarletRose wrote:
So how about shooting your historical weapons?

No reason not to, unless you know a particular piece is fragile and unsafe to shoot or you have some rare never-fired museum piece in flawless condition. Most of these guns were designed with fatigue lives way beyond what a normal hobbyist is going to reach so it's not like you're destroying it by using it.

Now, whether you can afford the obscure ammunition to use your favorite rare piece is a very different question...

 warhead01 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Do you trust yourself to have good enough aim to make .25 or .32 ACP immediately stop the threat?

Alternatively, do you trust yourself to get an incapacitating hit with your one shot of .45 out of a tiny concealable gun that doesn't have the mass to absorb recoil? Or would you have a lower-recoil caliber that lets you get your subsequent shots on target faster?

And yeah, I'll grant that a larger caliber out of a full-size pistol is great but in most cases where a civilian is going to have that full-size pistol available they could have a rifle or shotgun instead, and in that case the choice is obvious.

I CC a full size 1911.

They're actually quite concealable. More than a Glock IMO due to being slimmer.

Now I want to ask how tall you are or if you think that matters. I'm 5'8" and I thought it might be too difficult to carry a full sized. How do you do it what do you recommend and what do you not recommend. I own a behind the back holster, wasn't an expensive one and i thought that might work. it's not uncomfortable at all but I'm not sure how much it prints. Rock Island Armory stuff for the most part would be very affordable for me. I've bookmarked a few but I'm still looking around.


This thread has been very good.

Super late to the game, but I also carried a full size 1911, and I'm 5'9". You're stuck with either small of the back, or appendix carry if you don't want any part of it sticking out (I've appendix carried in a T-shirt and jeans, no other layers, even my wife didn't notice).

That being said, it wasn't the most comfortable thing for a day walking around town.

Appendix carry is... I... it just gives me the heebie jeebies to hold the family jewels under the glare of John Moses Browning.

I do shoot all of my historical guns regularly. The mas36 is rechambered in 30-284 nolasco and must be reloaded by hand, but my other historical guns are both in 7,62x54R.

This carttridge is very easy to come by in France. Surplus is still relatively affordable even with price surges last times, but I don't like using surplus in my SVT40 to much because they're cheap Chinese stuff that can quickly corrode it you missed anything while cleaning it.

Sport or hunting load with brass cases are also easy to find but usually range from 1 to 2 or 3 euros each.

I hand reload my 7,62x54r instead, so I ultimately save on the brass cases. Overall, qu have achieved better results with my tigr and mosin nagant this way.

I just need to really get some ligjter bullets for the SVT40, 180grs or 174grs (depending on what is available in store) is way too heavy for it past 50m. From a quick internet research, it seems it shot a bullet more along the line if 150grs.

In unrelated news, I continue to feed my bullpup addiction.

Wait, is that a steyr aug with drum mag?

Yes it is. Been wanting one for a while and finally got one.

So with the drums either side, how does one hold that?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Desert Island Dakka

Premise is Because Reasons, you’ve become stranded upon a deserted Island, which has indigenous game.

What no one is going with an air rifle? A modern version of this old thing - Girardoni air rifle, something like the Texan (I may be getting the name wrong) - would get around some ammo problems assuming you had spare parts of indeed just three of them.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So with the drums either side, how does one hold that?

Bipod or just strength.


Without a bipod though and drum mags beeing notorious, it ain't a good idea.

Also desert island, k31 and the weight of the other weapons in ammo and a bajonett.

Bolt action since it avoids ammo waste. Bajonett because pointy metal usefull. More ammo because my eyesight ain't what it used to be.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So with the drums either side, how does one hold that?

I thought it would interfere with the sight picture, but it actually doesn't. The mag is further forward on the AUG than you'd think so its actually not a big deal.

Your cheek rests pretty much just behind and above the magwell so when shouldering the mag is just in the space between the gun and your chest.

Weight-wise its less awkward than the B-mag in an AR because the weight is better distributed.

Big advantage of bullpups. I found on English rifles, FAMAS and aug when I tried each time that this balances the gun mightily.

Not ready to purchase any bullpup anytime soon however, it's way out of reach for my wallet . And as I said, for rapid firing at the range and fun, I'm entirely happy with my saiga and it's optic, so I don't actually NEED another trifle to scratch that itch... but we all sat that and all know how it ends.

 ScarletRose wrote:
Seems to be a lot of agreement on this topic (I feel the same too, my surplus guns only get mods that can be reversed). So how about shooting your historical weapons?

I know some people collect firearms more to look at and own a rare/old model than actually shoot. One of the local folks I've shot with has a ton of obscure bolt action rifles, Chinese mausers, that kind of stuff.

To me it's a tool though, and while I appreciate people who preserve old things, these are made to be used. I wouldn't toss my nicely blued Tokarev in a pile of gravel, but it's not a safe queen either.

Assuming ammo is available (so that shooting is even possible), I can see two reasons not to shoot them.

1. Fragility. While the frame may be up to it, small parts will wear out, and are likely irreplaceable. Unless it is supported in the after-market parts industry, I can see keeping it as a wall-hanger.

2. Finish. If you have something that looks like it just came home from the shop and was made in 1892, do us all a favor and leave it that way. Shoot a more seasoned version.

Before purchasing an older weapon, I check to see if replacement springs are available. This is a good proxy to tell me if parts support is out there. In fact, I'm now to to the point where I replace the springs as a matter of procedure. It really does make a difference.

And I only buy stuff that has seen some decent use. I intend to shoot what I get, and I prefer something with wear marks and a scuffed finish. Before it was lost in Lake Huron, I did buy a minty Harrington and Richardson revolver from the 70s and immediately mar its finish through use, but I'm certain that its collector value was unaffected because it had no collector value. That's why I bought it. Crazy cheap.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Appendix carry is... I... it just gives me the heebie jeebies to hold the family jewels under the glare of John Moses Browning.

If it was anything BUT my 1911, I wouldn't do it. If it was my M&P, I carry at 7 or 9 o'clock (curse of being a lefty in the shooting hobby).

That's exactly what I did to decide between the Sig Manurhin and my saiga: I looked around the internet and phoned gunsmiths to ask if replacement parts were around. As it came out, I was detered from buying the Sig Manurhin because spare parts are so scarce.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
While the frame may be up to it, small parts will wear out, and are likely irreplaceable.

Depends on how much you're willing to pay I suppose. As long as you have an original to work from you can always measure the part, draw up blueprints, and send off a job to your local machine shop. It's probably not worth it unless you really love that gun but if people can "repair" old military aircraft from a serial number plate and a couple scraps of sheet metal the only thing stopping you is your budget.

TBH the parts I'd be more concerned about on a historical piece are the big ones. It's easy to overlook a replacement spring or tiny bit of metal but it's definitely going to feel bad if you have to choose between, say, replacing an original matching barrel with a modern one or having "minute of small house" accuracy. And of course that serial numbered receiver that carries the gun's legal status can be a real problem to fix or replace, especially if you've got a pre-ban gun in a place where you can't just buy or make a new one.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

To me it's a tool though, and while I appreciate people who preserve old things, these are made to be used. I wouldn't toss my nicely blued Tokarev in a pile of gravel, but it's not a safe queen either.

Assuming ammo is available (so that shooting is even possible), I can see two reasons not to shoot them. *snip excellent points - see above in comment thread for them*

A side note, the Shriv small arms collection which has stuff going back to the Brown Bess (2 of each, thought typically only 1 of each crew served example) where - barring a period where a very poorly thought out DIN was issued - they aimed to fire every weapon at least once a year (well not the crew served stuff). This was to ensure everything was in working order to make it a better reference collection. The police also used them a fair bit if they needed ballistics info. Anything which broke and couldn't be repaired was then shipped off to a museum. The were well used pieces though, they weren't trying to preserve finish, but keep them going for work purposes. The greatest threat to them was in fact dumb students cocking the weapons then putting them back on the racks, which had in the past ruined the springs. They have multiple weapons there that have been continuously used now for over a century. Some firearms really are rather tough.

One odd side effect of that was every weapon was pretty much zero'd for 25m as that was the range they had regular access to!

It may also come down to what someone’s hobby is.

Compare to vintage Star Wars.

Some just want any example of the figure, without or without accessories.

Some want to complete figures. Some with genuine accessories, others don’t mind repro

Some only want to buy complete figures, with varying tolerance of condition

Some want to buy Mint On Card - seeing it as an overall preservation effort.

I could never find them until now for my SVT40, but I like having accessories along with the gun. Strangely enough I'm not upset if they're reprimoduction - I'll take into account how rare genuine ones are sometimes.

I've got the bayonet, the sling, and the cleaning kit plus 2 copies of clips for my mosin nagant. The cleaning kit hadn't got the correct oil bottle but I got lucky.

My mosin fell once when my brother pushed it by negligence. So the upper wood piece broke and I bought a replacement one. I had the pleasing surprise of noticing something at the bottom of the packages, turned out, it was the actual oil bottle with Cyrillic letters and both compartments!

For my SVT40, I've only found one reproduction of a sling. Otherwise, I still seek the tools that go alon with it: one to regulate gas piston and the other to zero the iron sights. Plus I'd like a second magazine.