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... and every time I hear this, I wonder if Khorne gains power from menstration.
I'm sure he does, but not because of the blood in this case (the bleeding is an involuntary action and Chaos Gods tend to get more out of sentient free-will actions far as I know. That's why they don't care much for their beastmen in WH Fantasy)
....anyways, he probably gains power from it because he gains power from emotions of hate and rage, which menstruation has a lot of.
Necrons and Tomb Kings are similar culturally-wise but they sure as hell aren't similar biologically-wise and in many aesthetic ways. There's a huge difference between "robot" and "undead mummy".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/01 01:04:19
Yea, Emps is probably still active. Even the Cadian Blood novel shows that the Emperor's Tarot is still clearly working. A librarian and a sanctioned psyker, before contacting and interacting with each other, both came to the same (and correct) conclusion via it.
Maybe on Fenris. For the rest of the world, Sanguinius is usually worshiped. Leman Russ, on the other hand…, well, for most people, it is the name of some noisy, smelly tank, rather than the name of some noisy, smelly primarch.
Honestly, I'm pretty sure much of the Imperium is well-aware of WHY that "noisy smelly tank" is named "Leman Russ".
(to spell things out for you, it was named in honor of the primarch, so yes, Leman Russ is a pretty big deal to the Imperium if one of their most common tanks is named after him)
The Dante munitorium warlords book specifically mentions Logan as "perhaps the most beloved by the people of the Imperium", too. Logan was chosen as the overall leader of the Imperium's forces during the 13th Black Crusade (the biggest mobilization of Imperium forces since the Horus Heresy. IE, NO other Chapter master in the entire history of the Imperium can claim they were placed in charge of as big an Imperial force as Logan). Bjorn was reknown enough that even the Inquisitor that was against the Space Wolves after the First War for Armegeddon kneeled in reverence in his presence.
One can argue whether or not the Space Wolves can get away with whatever, but regardless of if they should or not, it's canon that they're very well-regarded amongst the Imperium people (and that's an understatement).
...although in my opinion, if I were an inquisitor or High Lord in a situation where Logan was the most beloved chapter master in the entire Imperium, I'd be scared shitless of the mere thought of declaring them heretics unless there was indisputable proof that they were corrupted by Chaos itself, which for all their rambunctious behavior they're obviously not. Shot at some ecclesiarchy ships? Got in a spat with the Inquisition where several Inquisitors actually agreed with the wolves? Disobeyed a few orders because they thought those orders were stupid? Hey, as long as I don't see tentacles popping out of your eyes, then go ahead (although I'd verbally grumble about it a lot). The benefits of declaring "the most beloved" chapter master a heretic would have to outweigh the riots and loss of morale that would come about by such a move (not to mention making enemies of the wolves and losing one of the Imperium's most active long serving chapters)
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TiamatRoar wrote: (to spell things out for you, it was named in honor of the primarch, so yes, Leman Russ is a pretty big deal to the Imperium if one of their most common tanks is named after him)
Mr Rhino and Miss Chimera are really popular then
If we were to run with that, I guess it could go to show that Leman Russ's reached mythical proportions. Or, alternatively, is as much a well known concept to Imperial citizens as rhinos and the concept of chimera are to normal people in present day 2014 AD.
....not that I think that's exactly the right context to be looking at things, but hey, if that floats your boat.
TiamatRoar wrote: the 13th Black Crusade (the biggest mobilization of Imperium forces since the Horus Heresy
. Really ?
TiamatRoar wrote: IE, NO other Chapter master in the entire history of the Imperium can claim they were placed in charge of as big an Imperial force as Logan
Does Macharius crusade not completely overshadow it still ?
Because yeah, chapter masters, big deal !
I did say Chapter Masters, not Imperium Guard. That said, that force was bigger than Macharius's so the point still stands even without "exact words" shenanigans.
Thinking about it, that's because Macharius CONQUERED the most, not "was put in charge of the most", like Logan was. It's kinda apples and oranges (Logan's job wasn't to conquer but to defend)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/01 21:55:32
Chimera are not familiar to normal peoples .
I do not think Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque is famous to most people. Actually, I had to use Wikipedia to learn who he was. And that is in a way less obscurantist setting than 40k, where people cannot simply search for biographies of Primarchs on Wikipedia
They aren't? Maybe it's because I'm into anime or something but I'm pretty sure any Japanese person knows of the concept given that Chimera are a normal enemy in Final Fantasy, a big plot point in Full Metal Alchemist and Touhou and many other things. Though they turn up in many non-Asian myths (hells, the origin of the word is non-Asian) as well, obviously. I'd think Chimera is only slightly less well-known a concept/word than wyvern, minotaur, or for the Imperium, Malcador or Macharius (which are also tanks)
I have a hard time believing it.
The 13th Black Crusade explicitly caused the largest mobilization of Imperium forces since the Horus Heresy. Given that the Malcharian Crusade happened after the Heresy but before the 13th Black Crusade, that means it was larger than the forces mobilized for Macharius's crusade.
Still does not look right.
What doesn't? Macharius led a crusade that conquered some of the most planets in such a short time frame in the history of the Imperium, but he had a smaller force to do it with than Logan did to defend the Imperium. Beyond that, there's very little to compare because Macharius' mission was to conquer, while Logan's mission was to defend.
....going back to my first part of this post, they both have tanks named after them anyways. So either Leman Russ is famous enough to have a tank named after him in his honour, or Leman Russ is just known as a "smelly noisy tank" (but in that case, going by your logic, SO ARE MACHARIUS AND MALCADOR)
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TiamatRoar wrote: Maybe it's because I'm into anime or something but I'm pretty sure any Japanese person knows of the concept given that Chimera are a normal enemy in Final Fantasy, a big plot point in Full Metal Alchemist and Touhou and many other things.
I am sorry, but Geeky McNerd is not Average Joe .
Seriously, though, they are not.
TiamatRoar wrote: I'd think Chimera is only slightly less well-known a concept/word than wyvern, minotaur
Might surprise you, but wyvern are also totally not familiar to normal people. Of course, we are all Geeky McNerd around here, but go ask Average Joe if you can burrow his wyvern for a ride, you will see. I mean, Firefox is even highlighting the word as a spelling mistake !
TiamatRoar wrote: The 13th Black Crusade explicitly caused the largest mobilization of Imperium forces since the Horus Heresy.
Yeah. That is what I have trouble believing. I mean, it all happened on a quite small system and all. Nothing went out of it. How could it have been that big ?
TiamatRoar wrote: So either Leman Russ is famous for having a tank named after him, or Leman Russ is just known as a "smelly noisy tank" (but in that case, going by your logic, SO ARE MACHARIUS AND MALCADOR)
I have not read any of the Horus Heresy books, but I have never heard of any reference to Malcador in any piece of fluff I have read first-hand. So, as far as I am concerned, he may as well be completely forgotten by everyone in the Imperium. Might be wrong though.
As for Macharius, well… not only are Macharius tanks way bigger and better and rarer than Leman Russ tanks, not only are they superior in basically every regard, but the fact that Macharius is famous is not denied by the fact one tank was named after him ! I was just saying having a tank named after you does not necessarily meant you were famous, I did not pretend that having a tank named after you when you are already famous suddenly make everyone forget about you !
Also, Macharius are better than Leman Russes .
Your own ignorance about the fluff is not a valid argument that Leman Russ isn't famous despite having a tank named after him. Malcador the Sigilite was dubbed by the Emperor himself to be known as "Malcador the Hero" throughout all of the Imperium. Can you drop this line of argument finally because it's getting absolutely ridiculous at this point. Logan was explicitly stated in Dante's book to be the most beloved chapter master, Bjorn has Inquisitors kneeling in reverence to him, Leman Russ has a tank named after him, and yet so many people insist on coming up with silly arguments that the Space Wolves and their Primarchs aren't famous throughout the Imperium with these ridiculous alternate explanations "Oh BL isn't canon" "Oh they probably just think of it as a smelly tank" and other ludicridocities when GAMES WORKSHOP CLEARLY DISAGREES, given the statements in Dante's booklet and Logan being made head of the defenses against the 13th Black Crusade and everything else.
Regardless of your own logic and reasoning behind why you think all other indicators are that the Space Wolves shouldn't be known and famous, GW has made it explicit that they ARE.
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If Malcador has a tank named after him, then people are going to know who he is, just like Macharius and Lemon Russ. You don't friggin' name a tank after someone while keeping that someone a secret (kinda goes against the whole idea of keeping something a secret in the first place). You are letting your sense of bias completely warp your logic on this matter. The Imperium isn't THAT stupid... at least, not when it comes to propaganda opportunitues, which its heros clearly ARE. The fact that GW has gone out of its way to say that names like Dante, Logan, and Calgar are well known across the Imperium in Dante's book (which is even GW STUDIO, not Black Library, I believe) shows that the Imperium is taking full advantage of propping up its heros as propagandic devices, regardless of what your bias causes you to think would logically be the case. Malcador has a tank named after him, therefore he is clearly NOT a secret. Getting back on topic, neither is Leman Russ! ...really, how the heck could Logan be the most beloved chapter master in the Imperium and people not know who his primarch is? It's not like the wolves are keeping it a secret like the Red Scorpions or Blood Ravens.
....although the whole point is moot. Even if by some bizarre fluke Leman Russ was not known across the Imperium, Logan, chapter master of the Space Wolves, is EXPLICITLY stated to be. So that pretty much settles the idea of whether or not the Space Wolves themselves are popular across the Imperium. Unless you're also going to use some bizarre logic to claim that just because Logan is popular doesn't mean the Space Wolves are.
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TiamatRoar wrote: If Malcador has a tank named after him, then people are going to know who he is, just like Macharius and Lemon Russ.
Then I guess Arkhan Land must be the most famous of all, with three tanks named after him. Yet I can hardly find any reference to people actually knowing who he is. And most player do not either.
I mean, when you hear about some tank model name, do you inquire about where the name come from ? I know I do not, usually.
Arkan Land's probably incredibly famous. Just because the fluff doesn't have people mentioning his name left and right doesn't mean he isn't. How often does George Washington come up in everyday conversation for Americans or Winston Churchill for Britain?
And just because you don't know something doesn't mean others don't. You also have to remember that the Imperium is a WAR culture as well as a propagandic one. I'm sure TONS of Germans knew just who the hell their tanks were named after when World War II was going on, for example (no, I'm not equating the Imperium to Nazis. Just that German tanks and German's heros were famous stuff during that time).
TiamatRoar wrote: GW has gone out of its way to say that names like Dante, Logan, and Calgar are well known across the Imperium in Dante's book
I do not know, I have not read it. Is it the small thing that was released for the advent calendar stuff ?
Yes.
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Furyou Miko wrote: Yeah, but do you know who William Tecumseh Sherman is? :p Without looking at google.
Yes, I know who Sherman is, although admittingly that's because a long time ago I looked him up after seeing the tank with his name on it. But really, who says an Imperial citizen can't do the same thing? Although the Imperium isn't exactly well-known for informing it's citizens, that doesn't apply to its propaganda. If an Imperial Guardsman or citizen were to look at a Leman Russ tank and ask "Why is it named Leman Russ?", I'm sure the answer will be readily available somewhere, be it in books, storytellers, data crystals, or even just the local arbiter, ecclesiarch, commander, or commissar trying to prep up morale and loyalty. "Leman Russ was a Primarch that kicked the ass of humanity's enemies, just like this tank is about to do!"
And again, the Imperium is in a constant state of war. People are more aware of tanks and other warfare vehicles when a war is going on.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/04/02 16:00:03
Yes, I know who Sherman is, although admittingly that's because a long time ago I looked him up after seeing the tank with his name on it. But really, who says an Imperial citizen can't do the same thing?
Vast swaths of the Imperial citizenry are functionally illiterate. The media is largely state-run, and knowledge is not freely disseminated (and is, in fact, actively suppressed by the Arbites, the Ecclesiarchy, and the Inquisition).
Ignorance is Strength. Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.
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Psienesis wrote: There's no "internet" in the Imperium, though there's all sorts of Administratum and other data "intranets". Even highly-developed worlds have an Inquisitorial and Arbites presence, not to mention the Ecclesiarchy.
There's no "just google it!" option. If you want to know something, you have to go to a librarium, access to which you require authorization, and to read anything but the most sanitized, state-approved propaganda requires Inquisitor-levels of authority.
I don't know why you bothered mentioning this when the rest of my post, that you so conveniently left out of your quote, clearly explained the context of my statement.
Although the Imperium isn't exactly well-known for informing it's citizens, that doesn't apply to its propaganda. If an Imperial Guardsman or citizen were to look at a Leman Russ tank and ask "Why is it named Leman Russ?", I'm sure the answer will be readily available somewhere, be it in books, storytellers, data crystals, or even just the local arbiter, ecclesiarch, commander, or commissar trying to prep up morale and loyalty. "Leman Russ was a Primarch that kicked the ass of humanity's enemies, just like this tank is about to do!"
Just as you stated, the media is controlled by the administration, the arbiters, and the ecclesiarchy. All of them would be more than happy to explain who Leman Russ is in the interest of propaganda (well, in the arbiter's case, they'd explain it out of honest pride in the Imperiam. ...at least if one somehow managed to get into a conversation with one in the first place).
Hell, any Imperial citizen who goes to church (and the Imperium has BIG churches, if official art is any indication. Official art of preachers preaching to huge masses is also out there) probably hears stories of the primarchs preached to them on a near weekly basis. It all celebrates and encourages veneration of the Emperor and love of humanity, after all.
It's in the Imperium's best interest to tell everyone about the loyalist primarchs (in a heavily propagandized positive light, obviously). If Dante, Calgar, and Logan can become well-known across the Imperium, then how the heck could the Imperium not allow Leman Russ to be? Again, you can spout all your nonsense you want about how the average civilian would be ignorant of the Imperium's heros, but GW stories CLEARLY are going along the lines of them NOT being so. Where is a single novel that shows that the (non-feral) Imperial citizenryship doesn't know who these guys are? You have novels like the Cain novels and novels like the First and Only where they come up, as well as Dante's Advent book that says various heros are well known across the Imperium, and all of this contradicts your idea that the people of the Imperium (or at least, a marginally sized chunk of them) are ignorant of such heros.
If the people are so ignorant of the Imperium's heros, then why hasn't any novel or studio databook ever mentioned as such? Why, on the occasions it comes up (war stories don't have many opportunities to bring it up, after all) are various people typically knowledgeable about the Imperium big names? Clearly the novel and story writers of the closest thing to Warhammer 40k's "canon" disagree with your assessment. Otherwise we'd see more stories about citizens ignorant of Imperium big names rather than the other way around.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2014/04/02 19:34:45
TiamatRoar wrote: Just as you stated, the media is controlled by the administration, the arbiters, and the ecclesiarchy. All of them would be more than happy to explain who Leman Russ is in the interest of propaganda (well, in the arbiter's case, they'd explain it out of honest pride in the Imperiam. ...at least if one somehow managed to get into a conversation with one in the first place).
Well, the arbites do not care about propaganda, they care about enforcing the Imperial rules. The Ecclesiarchy cares about propaganda, but has no love for Russ or the space wolves, as you may have noticed from the fact they attacked the fang. Twice, but the first do not count, it was a renegade cardinal acting rogue. The Administratum would not be able to find its own shoes even if it was wearing them, but can definitely give you the weather reports of Agripinia Scylathrax IV from 594.M37. Also, they messed up with you tithe level, you have been upgraded to the higher level of tithe, and since you could not pay, they are going to send two regiments of Imperial Guard to destroy you. Of course, one of them was actually raised on your planet, so it will turn into a big slaughter between the two regiment. That is the Administratum for you.
TiamatRoar wrote: Hell, any Imperial citizen who goes to church (and the Imperium has BIG churches, if official art is any indication. Official art of preachers preaching to huge masses is also out there) probably hears stories of the primarchs preached to them on a near weekly basis. It all celebrates and encourages veneration of the Emperor and love of humanity, after all.
Yeah, I am sure the Ecclesiarchy loves to tell everyone how some cool huge obviously not human monsters saved mankind. They love mutants !
(Or maybe the Ecclesiarchy is more fond of telling them of Sebastian Thor, and Dolan Chirosius.)
TiamatRoar wrote: It's in the Imperium's best interest to tell everyone about the loyalist primarchs (in a heavily propagandized positive light, obviously).
No. It is in the best interest of the Imperium to tell everyone of human heroes that were not monsters .
TiamatRoar wrote: You have novels like the Cain novels and novels like the First and Only where they come up
I do not remember that from the Cain books I have read. I have not read any Tanith book though. Care to elaborate what they knew about the Primarch and on which occasion it sprung up ?
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TiamatRoar wrote: This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2014/04/02 19:34:45
Damn, that is some editing !
Just make sure you do not add/change big part of your message after posting it too often, else it is pretty likely some people will never notice the updated versions.
Primarchs are no more abominations to humanity than Space Marines are. And Space Marines are canonically celebrated throughout the Imperium (even if just as legends on some planets) so I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy has no problem with using the primarchs as a propaganda tool, either.
As for the Cain books question, I thought it made it clear in the paragraph that I was talking about heros of the Imperium in general (in Cain's case, Cain himself is that propaganda hero). It's not like it takes very long for an Imperial propagandist to shoot off a quick "party line" about a whole slew of heros, primarchs included, and for the Imperium to encourage the proliferation of stories about them.
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Psienesis wrote: I brought it up because the part that you mentioned was "you looked it up". That's not really an option in the Imperium. There's nothing to look up. If you have a question about something, you ask your local Ministorum or Administratum official, and you'll be told the party line. If you question that, then you have problems.
The names of the Loyalist Primarchs are probably known, and probably associated with a single title. Like "Sanguinius The Pure", "Russ the Valorous", "Vulkan the Brave", etc. The Primarchs exist as myths, not living, breathing personages.
By "look it up", I meant "ask around" (I never used the words "look it up", because the rest of that paragraph was meant to convey the context). Why else would I include "storytellers" and "ecclesiarchs" as an example of such a thing? You don't need google to do research, even in the Imperium where there are tons of preachers around ready to preach loving Imperial propaganda to the masses. In this case, "the party line" is all you need to envision Leman Russ as a hero, because that's what the party line IS.
The Ecclesiarchy might not like the Space Wolves, but that's no reason to not include Leman Russ in the sermons. He was, after all, a creation and son of the Emperor and one who was a staunch loyalist. Nor did he have any of the issues with the ecclesarchy that the modern day wolves have for the most part
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/02 20:20:26
Furyou Miko wrote: Yeah, but do you know who William Tecumseh Sherman is? :p Without looking at google.
Yes, I know who Sherman is, although admittingly that's because a long time ago I looked him up after seeing the tank with his name on it. But really, who says an Imperial citizen can't do the same thing? Although the Imperium isn't exactly well-known for informing it's citizens, that doesn't apply to its propaganda. If an Imperial Guardsman or citizen were to look at a Leman Russ tank and ask "Why is it named Leman Russ?", I'm sure the answer will be readily available somewhere, be it in books, storytellers, data crystals, or even just the local arbiter, ecclesiarch, commander, or commissar trying to prep up morale and loyalty. "Leman Russ was a Primarch that kicked the ass of humanity's enemies, just like this tank is about to do!"
And again, the Imperium is in a constant state of war. People are more aware of tanks and other warfare vehicles when a war is going on.
The vast bulk of the Imperium probably doesn't know why the Leman Russ is named after the Primarch of the Space Wolves. The story they get is not going to be consistent across the Imperium, but that's fine because a) most people will never see a Leman Russ, b) Most people will never meet someone from another planet. Commissars might know, as they're from the Schola Progenium, which is a first-rate education for the Imperium (read as: brainwashing)... but most people will never meet a Commissar.
The Ministorum? They probably don't know. The Leman Russ isn't their "thing", anyway, that's Munitorum. So, yes, stories and such can spread about the Russ, or the Primarchs themselves, but these are most likely going to be either outright fabrications or re-tellings of actual events that have grown so much in the telling as to be basically fables.
This, though, is also going to depend on the world. A world of Ultramar, for example, is probably going to know a lot more about Guilliman than they would, say, Dorn or Vulkan.
So when it comes to the question of "Why is it called a Leman Russ?", ask a dozen different people and get 47 different answers.
That's fine. It doesn't matter WHY the Leman Russ is named after the primarch. It just matters that people are aware that "Leman Russ" is more than just "a smelly noisy tank" (of which I'm sure only a few of those 47 different answers would be)
TiamatRoar wrote: Primarchs are no more abominations to humanity than Space Marines are. And Space Marines are canonically celebrated throughout the Imperium (even if just as legends on some planets)
Yeah, because space marines sometime come to save your ass. Even then, they are more of a vague legend to most people of the Imperium.
Also, space marines do not have wings, or only one eye, or metal hands, or…
TiamatRoar wrote: so I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy has no problem with using the primarchs as a propaganda tool, either.
The Ecclesiarchy does not use the space marines as a propaganda tool, as far as I know. Because they do not go along well.
TiamatRoar wrote: As for the Cain books question, I thought it made it clear in the paragraph that I was talking about heros of the Imperium in general (in Cain's case, Cain himself is that propaganda hero). It's not like it takes very long for an Imperial propagandist to shoot off a quick "party line" about a whole slew of heros, primarchs included, and for the Imperium to encourage the proliferation of stories about them.
Oh. So it has actually no relevance to if primarchs (as opposed to normal, still-living humans) are famous among the global population of the Imperium (as opposed to being famous among the Imperial Guard).
TiamatRoar wrote: The Ecclesiarchy might not like the Space Wolves, but that's no reason to not include Leman Russ in the sermons.
According to this, the loyalist primarchs are considered saints. There's no source given for it though so I don't know if it comes from anywhere. If it's true, then it explicitly proves Leman Russ can be endorsed by the Ecclesiarchy (and thus probably is)
It's just a matter of if that Lexy article is true or not.
Well, while trying to track down the source of Primarchs being saints, I did see several people on forums state that's the case as if it were a fact, but they didn't give a source either. Guess I'll keep searching. In the meantime, while searching, I also found this snippet from Blood Reaver (A Nightlords novel by AB) brought up by someone in a forum.
Spoiler:
One example from Blood Reaver:
>‘Why?’ He forced the word through spit-wet teeth.
>The killer growled its words from the skull-faced helm. ‘I made this Imperium. I built it, night after night, with my sweat and my pride and a blade in my hands. I bought it with the blood in my brothers’ veins, fighting at the Emperor’s side, blinded by his light in the age before you entombed him as a messiah. You live, mortal, only because of my work. Your existence is mine. Look at me. You know what I am. Look past what cannot be true, and see what holds your life in his hands.’
>Maruc felt piss running down his leg, boiling hot against his skin. The Great Betrayer’s fallen angels. Mythology. A legend. ‘Just a legend,’ he croaked as he dangled. ‘Just a legend.’ Breath from his denial steamed on the warrior’s armour.
>‘We are not legends.’ The killer’s fist tightened again. ‘We are the architects of your empire, banished from history’s pages, betrayed by the husk you worship as it rots upon a throne of gold.’
>Maruc’s stinging eyes took in the silver aquila emblazoned across the killer’s chestplate. The Imperial eagle, cracked and broken, worn by a heretic.
>‘You owe us your life, mortal, so I give you this choice. You will serve the Eighth Legion,’ the killer promised, ‘or you will die screaming.’
Later:
>‘My name is Septimus.’ He still didn’t lower the guns. ‘I serve the Legiones Astartes aboard this ship.’ His voice carried into the chamber. No one spoke. ‘I’m here to find out each of your professions and areas of expertise, to determine your value to the Eighth Legion.’
>Maruc swallowed. ‘There is no Eighth Legion. I know my mythology.’
>Septimus couldn’t entirely fight down the smile. ‘Talk like that will get you killed on this ship. What was your duty on Ganges?’ As the guns came down, so did Maruc’s hands. He was suddenly uncomfortably aware that he needed a shower like never before.
So apparently even the traitor primarchs are in myths and legends, albeit with heavy propagandizing to try to make everyone think they're just a lie. At least in the case of where these bladdically-challenged fellows came from.
Yea. I guess some stories of them from 10,000 years ago managed to sneak into legends anyways or something in ADB's planets. At any rate, I found a lot of forum posters mentioning that statues of the various loyalist primarchs can be found throughout the Imperium in several BL stories, in case anyone still needs proof that the loyalist primarchs are like, actually known about in the wider Imperium.
There are statues of the primarchs on various planets, and Sanguinus has his own friggin' Imperial Holiday. Sure, the other primarchs don't (at least on a galactic scale, to my knowledge), but I imagine even one Primarch having the closest thing to an Imperium-wide holiday is enough that a significant portion of the populace knows about the primarchs. They might not know the exact details of the primarchs (such as them being genetically engineered super beings) but they'd at least have SOME basic inkling of them being the Emperor's sons or famous heros or whatever else if Sanguinus has a holiday and there are statues of the primarchs around. And that's more than knowing Leman Russ as just "a smelly noisy tank".
"Of all the Primarchs of the Space Marines it is Sanguinius whose temples rise aside those of the Emperor, and whose name is cherished by ordinary folk in gratitude for the life that was taken and the life that was spared. Alone of all the Primarchs his memory is honoured by a sanctified day of celebration, the Sanguinala, when Adepts across the galaxy wear upon their breast the red badge of the Lord Angel." 2nd ed Wargear book, p64.
Although only Sanguinus has that honor, odds are pretty darn good that if the Imperium propaganda machine is going to create a holiday for one of the primarchs and let that particular cat out of the bag, the rest could at least get a mention in various stories, in the interest of propaganda and giving preachers some stories to preach about. Honestly, preachers don't ONLY preach random prayers and litanies. Story-telling makes up a huge portion of almost every sermon I've ever seen. If not preachers, I'm sure the Imperium has other ways to administer Imperial propaganda.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/04/03 01:17:10
TiamatRoar wrote: They might not know the exact details of the primarchs (such as them being genetically engineered super beings) but they'd at least have SOME basic inkling of them being the Emperor's sons or famous heros or whatever else if Sanguinus has a holiday and there are statues of the primarchs around.
Well, I would be surprised if they even knew the word primarch, actually.
They know Sanguinius as a vague mythical hero of ancient times. I do not think they know anything more than he sacrificed himself somehow for the Emperor. Everything else, including the fact he was leading one the Astartes legions, the fact that there were others like him, or the fact the Astartes were regrouped by legion back then, it imho something they are not aware of.
TiamatRoar wrote: Although only Sanguinus has that honor, odds are pretty darn good that if the Imperium propaganda machine is going to create a holiday for one of the primarchs and let that particular cat out of the bag, the rest could at least get a mention in various stories, in the interest of propaganda and giving preachers some stories to preach about.
I do not think the Imperium do propaganda on the centralized way you describe. I do not think a random preacher will talk about the primarch because I do not think a random preacher will know about the primarch, for instance.
They don't have to know the word primarch. They don't have to know that the primarchs are genetically engineered by the Emperor. They don't even have to know they're the Emperor's sons. All they have to know for Leman Russ to be known as more than just "a smelly noisy tank" is that they are heros of humanity. That Sanguinus has a galactic holiday shows the Imperium is more than capable of getting this sort of propaganda out on a galactic level, so why wouldn't they let stories of the other primarchs go around the galaxy? If even Logan, who's only been around for 300 years, can be beloved across the Imperium, than propagating myths of biblical proportions that the Imperium has every reason to propagate as it sends its missionaries everywhere should be child's play. The initial missionaries aren't born on the planet they're travelling to and converting. They have to come from somewhere else. And obviously they'll take those stories with them from that somewhere else, even when finding a way to reconcile or assimilate the old religion of the planet into it. Given that the primarchs are second only to the Emperor himself when it comes to the origins of the Imperium, it would be complete nonsense for tales and legends of them to spread across the galaxy.
And as stated, statues of various primarchs can be found on various planets, so it's established anyways.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/03 16:12:58
TiamatRoar wrote: All they have to know for Leman Russ to be known as more than just "a smelly noisy tank" is that they are heros of humanity.
So, you are saying that typical imperial citizen know that there was a hero named Leman Russ, but cannot say anything about his life, have no idea that he was not human, and are completely oblivious of the fact the is in any way linked to the space wolves.
Well, that is a possibility, yes;
Leman Russ is in the Space Wolves' battle cry so the chances of a civilian not knowing his connection to the wolves is rather slim (and the civilian knows about the wolves in the first place because Logan is beloved across the Imperium). However, yes, it is true that a citizen does not need to know the finer details of his life (though odds are they'll get some version of it, inaccurate or not) or that he wasn't fully human (though odds are many will venerate him as a demi-god anyways). What matters is that he's known as a hero, and for the sake of the original topic, connected to the Space Wolves (since popularity of the wolves is the original argument that led to this).
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TiamatRoar wrote: Given that the primarchs are second only to the Emperor himself when it comes to the origins of the Imperium
Reference needed. I would certainly think the Ecclesiarchy would place Sebastian Thor and Fatidicus above the Primarch. I mean, half of them joined Chaos, how holy does that makes them ?
The Primarchs joining Chaos never happened. Ask your local Imperial Minister about that and he'll confirm it never did. ...or shoot you. One or the other.
Thor doesn't have a national holiday (that we know of). Sanguinus does. Statues of primarchs come up in stories more often than statues of Thor do.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/03 17:34:55
2014/04/04 00:49:01
Subject: Re:Are space wolves rebels of the imperium?
Psienesis wrote: So the Average Joe probably doesn't know wtf a "Primarch" is, but he knows that Russ was a Space Marine badass who walked beside the God-Emperor as a son.
Do you mean that he was a 10 meters tall giant that rode a similarly gigantic wolf into space to fight 50 meter talls ork big bosses while only wearing some fur loin cloth ?
TiamatRoar wrote: Leman Russ is in the Space Wolves' battle cry so the chances of a civilian not knowing his connection to the wolves is rather slim
Do you realize that the chance for a civilian to have ever seen the space wolves doing battle are likely way less than 0,0000000000001% ? I means, if I added the right number of zero right, you can expect about one civilian having seen the wolves do battle when you consider one hundred thousand billions civilians. Our planet contain 6 billions, most planets of the Imperium have never been visited by the wolves during the last human lifetime, and even on the planet they did, most civilians were not really hanging in on the battlefield.
Don't have to see the battle. Just gotta have the legends and stories. It's not too far-fetched for either their battle cry, or their connection to Russ via their battle cry, to proliferate in some fashion via story telling. Again, it'll likely get distorted as it passes from story teller to story teller but the gist of it will still be there. You can keep nitpicking at these finer details but none of it is enough to prove your absolutely ridiculous premise that Leman Russ is mostly just known as a "smelly noisy tank". An extremist view like that requires a truckload more proof and rationale than the more flexible notion that the primarchs and/or the Space Wolves, in some shape or form, not necessarily entirely accurately but at least there in some way, are legends across the Imperium.
TiamatRoar wrote: Thor doesn't have a national holiday (that we know of). Sanguinus does.
Not enforced by the Ecclesiarchy.
This isn't a question of whether or not something's enforced by the ecclesiarchy. It's a question of if the citizens have knowledge of it. And this holiday is explicitly stated to be celebrated galaxy-wide, enforced or not.
TiamatRoar wrote: Statues of primarchs come up in stories more often than statues of Thor do.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Well, we should try re-reading all this fluff with the Galactic Partridge theory in mind. Like that Inquisitor from the First War for Armageddon. What if the wolves had dealt a pact with him, sent assassin to kill all his superior so that he could be in charge, and conspire with him to make themselves look good at the expense of the lives of all those civilians ?
The Space Wolves are rather Gary Stu-ish. But that still doesn't change the fact that your own claims and attempts to downplay what they are in the fluff, gary-stu-ish or not, are ridiculously inaccurate. You can criticize that the fluff itself is stupid or nonsensical, but when you say things like this (which is clearly untrue given that we've seen the perspectives of various individuals involved as well as finer details regarding the First War for Armegeddon in a novel), "the wolves are unknown throughout the galaxy", or "Leman Russ is only known as a smelly noisy tank", that's more YOUR headcanon than anything to do with any fluff example ever presented.
While one has the right to play around with their own head canon, it's likely hardly relevant to the topic at hand in this case. I'm pretty sure the original poster is more interested in things from Games Workshop regarding the Space Wolves rather than the stuff you come up with which various fluff pieces generally seems to contradict. Or at least speculations that are actually COMPATIBLE with the fluff as it's been presented.
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Saint Basilica the Eldar was a saint. Course, turned out that he actually was a saint... for Chaos.
That said, the loyalist primarchs are all de-facto saints according to Lexicanum, although it doesn't cite a source. Hard to imagine them not being so, though.
Saint is just a term given to someone by the Ecclesiarchy anyways. Given that the Ecclesiarchs are human, they aren't perfect and sometimes make mistakes (such as Basilica). The primarchs, too, made mistakes. I'm not really sure why the sisters are a sign of how far the Imperium's fallen. Pretty much EVERYONE makes mistakes in the fluff, Emperor and Chaos Gods included.
...but really, as grim dark as 40k is, I'm pretty sure the fluff has only included the ecclesiarchy as an example of many of the grimdark, not the cause (or in some cases, not the ONLY cause), and unlike many other grim dark aspects of 40k, the ecclesiarchy can at least argue it's a necessary evil (and on a good day, argue that it's the truth if Emps really is a god).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/13 23:17:24
. Really ?
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