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TiamatRoar wrote:
Your own ignorance about the fluff is not a valid argument that Leman Russ isn't famous despite having a tank named after him.

Yet few people seem to be drawing the link between the tank and the primarch.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Malcador the Sigilite was dubbed by the Emperor himself to be known as "Malcador the Hero" throughout all of the Imperium.

Yeah. Ten thousand years before 40k, Malcador was dubbed by the Emperor himself as Malcador the Hero. And religion was forbidden. And the Primarchs were famous. And stuff. Then, it sort of went downward into a spiral of obscurantism.
You know, lots of stuff can happen during ten thousands of years.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Your own ignorance about the fluff is not a valid argument that Leman Russ isn't famous despite having a tank named after him.

Yet few people seem to be drawing the link between the tank and the primarch.\.

No, YOU seem to not be drawing the link between the tank and the primarch. Quote me a source that agrees with you.

Do you want a source where guardsmen have a Leman Russ and do not think for even one second about how it is linked to the primarch of the space wolves ? Really ? I mean, just quote a source when they do, it will be quicker and more pertinent.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Did I mention that this last time was when Alicia Dominica and her followers entered the Throne room, and that they came out of it entirely changed, yet still faithful ?

We don't actually know what happened in there. Could have just been that seeing the corpse of her god moved her enough to see how wrong serving Vandire was.

Not saying that Big E speaking to her is out of the question, just that we shouldn't make assumptions.

He did, however, speak to Jaq Draco and, in much-earlier fluff, is commented as lighting candles for fallen Space Marines.

 Troike wrote:
We don't actually know what happened in there. Could have just been that seeing the corpse of her god moved her enough to see how wrong serving Vandire was.

Well, that would be very anti-climatic. I do not presume to know what happened, but even if it is likely not the Emperor starting a little chat with them while sipping tea, I still hope it involves Him actually doing something, else it will feel quite lame.

As for the chimera, I ran a contemporary fantasy RPG for a bunch of roleplay and fantasy nerds.

Not a single one was capable of solving a riddle about a basilisk, because they had no idea of what a basilisk is outside Harry Potter.

The situation with the Leman Russ is kind of like that. You say "Leman Russ" to a Guardsman, they'll think "battle tank", because that's what they're familiar with. You say "Leman Russ" to a Marine, and he'll think "Primarch", because that's what they are familiar with.

A Guardsman making the leap from Leman Russ to Primarch is exactly the same as my players making the leap from six-legged lizard monster to basilisk.

Next time give them a riddle about a jabberwock ! Awesome monster, totally canon in GW's universes : http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Jabberwock !

And that one is about as famous among even fantasy nerds as the chimera is famous among the mainstream public .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Maybe it's because I'm into anime or something but I'm pretty sure any Japanese person knows of the concept given that Chimera are a normal enemy in Final Fantasy, a big plot point in Full Metal Alchemist and Touhou and many other things.

I am sorry, but Geeky McNerd is not Average Joe .
Seriously, though, they are not.

Many people will do know what a chimera is. But many others do, not just nerds. And the word chimera will at least sound familiar to most people.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
I'd think Chimera is only slightly less well-known a concept/word than wyvern, minotaur

Might surprise you, but wyvern are also totally not familiar to normal people. Of course, we are all Geeky McNerd around here, but go ask Average Joe if you can burrow his wyvern for a ride, you will see. I mean, Firefox is even highlighting the word as a spelling mistake !

A wyvern is just a kind of dragon. Almost all people are familiar with dragons.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
The 13th Black Crusade explicitly caused the largest mobilization of Imperium forces since the Horus Heresy.

Yeah. That is what I have trouble believing. I mean, it all happened on a quite small system and all. Nothing went out of it. How could it have been that big ?

The fluff explicitly states it was that big. It was the largest attack on the Imperium since the Heresy.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
So either Leman Russ is famous for having a tank named after him, or Leman Russ is just known as a "smelly noisy tank" (but in that case, going by your logic, SO ARE MACHARIUS AND MALCADOR)

I have not read any of the Horus Heresy books, but I have never heard of any reference to Malcador in any piece of fluff I have read first-hand. So, as far as I am concerned, he may as well be completely forgotten by everyone in the Imperium. Might be wrong though.
As for Macharius, well… not only are Macharius tanks way bigger and better and rarer than Leman Russ tanks, not only are they superior in basically every regard, but the fact that Macharius is famous is not denied by the fact one tank was named after him ! I was just saying having a tank named after you does not necessarily meant you were famous, I did not pretend that having a tank named after you when you are already famous suddenly make everyone forget about you !
Also, Macharius are better than Leman Russes .

Malcador may be largely unknown, but he was never a public figure to begin with. Very much unlike great public heroes like Macharius or the Primarchs.
The loyalist Primarchs are honoured and worshipped throughout the Empire. They are the Emperor's sons, they are like the Jesus of the Imperial Cult. That is well-known fluff. Or do you have any sources saying Leman Russ or any of the loyalist Primarchs is unknown to people of the Imperium? Because I have never read anything like that.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Malcador the Sigilite was dubbed by the Emperor himself to be known as "Malcador the Hero" throughout all of the Imperium.

Yeah. Ten thousand years before 40k, Malcador was dubbed by the Emperor himself as Malcador the Hero. And religion was forbidden. And the Primarchs were famous. And stuff. Then, it sort of went downward into a spiral of obscurantism.
You know, lots of stuff can happen during ten thousands of years.

The Primarchs were around far longer than Malcador however. And they weren't just ordinary heroes like Malcador, the were the Emperor's sons. Even much more so than the 'common' Astartes, they carry a huge religious significance to the people of the Imperium.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Emperor speaks to people fairly frequently for a corpse in a chair. He's not unaware of what's going on in the Imperium.

The militant-atheist thing is relatively new. Lastly, and I've said this before:

People worshipped him as a god while he was still walking around. He didn't seem to have much desire to stop them.

The Emperor damn well knew this was going on. On Terra alone there were *billions* of people in the cults that would later gel into the Temple of the Savior Emperor.

It is highly, *highly* unlikely that the Emperor would put a stop to the Ecclesiarchy. It is, after all, probably feeding him an unimaginable amount of power in the Warp.

The Emperor didn't have much desire to stop them? The Emperor personally burned down every church on Terra, the Imperial Creed explicitly outlawed religion and the Emperor punished one of his sons for encouraging worship of him, thereby setting the Horus Heresy in motion. The fact that the Emperor didn't stop the cults springing up probably had more to do with the Emperor being occupied with the Great Crusade and his Webway Project. After that would have been done, I have no doubt the Emperor would have dealt with the cults some time. Besides, the cults only really got going after the Emperor 'died'.
It is standard fluff. The fact that it might be relatively new does not make it any less true.

Also, the Emperor, being a rotten corpse, can't directly give orders or lead the Imperium anymore. That is why the High Lords were created. The Emperor only speaks indirectly in dreams and visions etc.
I have no doubt, that if the Emperor were to return in his pre-Heresy form, smiting the Ecclessiarchy down would be one of his first actions.
But, ironically, post-Heresy, the Ecclessiarchy and the people's worship of the Emperor is what empowers his soul in the Warp. The Emperor may not like it, but the Imperial Cult has become a necessity for the Imperium and the Emperor to survive. So no, I don't think the Emperor would shut the Ecclessiarchy down, even if he had the power to do so.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I still hope it involves Him actually doing something, else it will feel quite lame.

Not necessarily. I, for one, think that merely viewing her god giivning Dominica an epiphany would fit as a suitably religious experience. I recall somebody else (Psienesis, i think) theorising that seeing the body would remind her of what a big sacrifice he made for the Imperium and that what she was doing for Goge dishonoured that sacrifice.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
A wyvern is just a kind of dragon. Almost all people are familiar with dragons.

A jabberwock is just a kind of monster. Almost everyone is familiar with monsters. Jabberwock are pretty damn unknown to all but the fans of Alice in Wonderland, and possibly a very few fantasy fan that do not know it came from there.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The fluff explicitly states it was that big. It was the largest attack on the Imperium since the Heresy.

It was the largest attack by Chaos on the Imperium. Totally different thing from “It was the biggest alliance of Imperial forces ever”…
And even then, when Angron attacks with a dozen of bloodthirster, it feels bigger than Abaddon and his friends (no primarch involved) attacking Cadia.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Malcador may be largely unknown, but he was never a public figure to begin with. Very much unlike great public heroes like Macharius or the Primarchs.

Uh ? Come on ! You just said he was dubbed as a hero by the Emperor himself throughout the Imperium. Your words. I may not have read the HH series, but I can recognize a contradiction when I see one.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The loyalist Primarchs are honoured and worshipped throughout the Empire. They are the Emperor's sons, they are like the Jesus of the Imperial Cult. That is well-known fluff.

Well-known ? Do you have references ? I could not find anything related to that on the article on primarchs on the lexicanicum. The Imperium is big, vast and heterogeneous. There is few to none homogeneity. The Imperial Cult itself has thousands of difference faces. The only reference I can remember to the common citizen knowing of the primarch was references to some kind of “Sanguinius day”. And even then, I imagine it as being heavily twisted by myths and deformations.
For me really, everything related to the distant past of the Horus Heresy is half-forgotten myths at best to the common imperial citizen. You would not want average Joe to know that Chaos exist, would you really tell him about how half of the Emperor's chosen creation fell to it, and how He was actually a militant atheist ?
Of course YMMV.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Primarchs were around far longer than Malcador however.

Yep, living among their chapter, not taking part in the governance of the Imperium. And still many dozens of thousands of years ago.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
And they weren't just ordinary heroes like Malcador, the were the Emperor's sons. Even much more so than the 'common' Astartes, they carry a huge religious significance to the people of the Imperium.

Would you really like to give precise theological lecture on how the primarchs are the Emperor's son when half of them fell to Chaos ? I know I would not.
Also, if the primarchs and the astartes did carry such a religious significance, then how come the Sisters do not hold them in better regard ?

What did or did not happen in the presence of the Golden Throne to Alicia and her compatriots is going to be open to interpretation until GW decides to write a 47-volume "Age of Apostasy" series.

However, in the end, it doesn't really matter. Maybe the Emperor spoke to her. Maybe she saw his body and realized that here lay a guy who had sacrificed everything for this idea of an Imperium, and this ponce down the hall was gakking all over that memory. Who knows? Whatever happened in that room on that day isn't as important as what it lead to, and what it lead to was basically the re-founding of the Imperium as we would recognize it in M41.

As far as the fame of Primarchs and such goes... it depends. The Imperial Creed gets revealed in a lot of different ways, so whether a world or a system venerates the Primarchs in any way is going to vary. Given that the Ecclesiarchy adopts a whole lot of "native faiths" into the fold leads me to believe that the myth-cycles of the Primarchs may not be particularly widespread beyond the worlds that the various Chapters have influence over.

The Space Wolves and Russ, in particular, though, are popular because of the results of their Great Hunts. Every so often, the Great Wolf gets an itch and says its time to go find Russ. The Chapter suits up, sails out... and runs into some NastyBad out there in the galaxy somewhere. The Space Wolves, being Space Wolves, whip the ass of this NastyBad, saving millions of Imperial lives in the process. Soon enough, all the people of Planet Iowa here are naming their kids Bjorn, Lukas, Logan, Frey, Fral, and Hoorbeenjoorben and what not, building statues and all that kind of thing to Space Wolf heroes, and telling tales for centuries about how their world was saved by Space Wolves.

These people have probably heard the legends and tales of Russ, and so know who he was, but I would not say that they necessarily worship or venerate him as an Imperial Saint.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Malcador may be largely unknown, but he was never a public figure to begin with. Very much unlike great public heroes like Macharius or the Primarchs.

Uh ? Come on ! You just said he was dubbed as a hero by the Emperor himself throughout the Imperium. Your words. I may not have read the HH series, but I can recognize a contradiction when I see one.

Did I say something like that? I don't remember. Malcador may have been called a hero by the Emperor, but he was always a shady, behind the throne figure. I can imagine there being little knowledge of him outside the Inquisition.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
And they weren't just ordinary heroes like Malcador, the were the Emperor's sons. Even much more so than the 'common' Astartes, they carry a huge religious significance to the people of the Imperium.

Would you really like to give precise theological lecture on how the primarchs are the Emperor's son when half of them fell to Chaos ? I know I would not.
Also, if the primarchs and the astartes did carry such a religious significance, then how come the Sisters do not hold them in better regard ?

Why do you need to tell the population that there were Primarchs that fell to Chaos? Just tell only about ones who stayed loyal.
And do the Sisters not hold the Astartes in high regard? If that is the case, I didn't know it. But if it is so, it would likely have to do with the disdain the Astartes have for the SoB.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Did I say something like that? I don't remember.

Sorry, my bad, it was actually Tiamat.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Why do you need to tell the population that there were Primarchs that fell to Chaos? Just tell only about ones who stayed loyal.

Yeah, and how do you explain their lives without mentioning the Heresy ?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
And do the Sisters not hold the Astartes in high regard?

They do not. Since 2nd edition codex.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
But if it is so, it would likely have to do with the disdain the Astartes have for the SoB.

Well, the actual fluff says that they respect each other's martial prowess, actually. It is more about the fact the Astartes do not worship the Emperor, and that they are not humans. And therefore flirt with the line of “mutant/xenos abomination that should be purged”.

If Malcador has a tank named after him, then people are going to know who he is, just like Macharius and Lemon Russ. You don't friggin' name a tank after someone while keeping that someone a secret (kinda goes against the whole idea of keeping something a secret in the first place). You are letting your sense of bias completely warp your logic on this matter. The Imperium isn't THAT stupid... at least, not when it comes to propaganda opportunitues, which its heros clearly ARE. The fact that GW has gone out of its way to say that names like Dante, Logan, and Calgar are well known across the Imperium in Dante's book (which is even GW STUDIO, not Black Library, I believe) shows that the Imperium is taking full advantage of propping up its heros as propagandic devices, regardless of what your bias causes you to think would logically be the case. Malcador has a tank named after him, therefore he is clearly NOT a secret. Getting back on topic, neither is Leman Russ! ...really, how the heck could Logan be the most beloved chapter master in the Imperium and people not know who his primarch is? It's not like the wolves are keeping it a secret like the Red Scorpions or Blood Ravens.

....although the whole point is moot. Even if by some bizarre fluke Leman Russ was not known across the Imperium, Logan, chapter master of the Space Wolves, is EXPLICITLY stated to be. So that pretty much settles the idea of whether or not the Space Wolves themselves are popular across the Imperium. Unless you're also going to use some bizarre logic to claim that just because Logan is popular doesn't mean the Space Wolves are.

Maybe the wolves are like the rest of the imperium, directionless and just shadows of what they once were.

 Psienesis wrote:
Then why don't they let the Ecclesiarchy, which does all kinds of work with native people in adopting whatever pagan thing they practice into the Imperial Creed, investigate the rumors?

Instead, they fired on their vessels. This *really* looks like the behavior of "something to hide".

Because the ecclesiarchy were being rude and insulting. its pretty well known at this point space wolves dislike outsiders

... I wonder why that is? Could it be... Chaos?!

If Malcador has a tank named after him, then people are going to know who he is, just like Macharius and Lemon Russ. You don't friggin' name a tank after someone while keeping that someone a secret

It's just an artifact from when Leman Russ was originally a Commander, not a Primarch, and they had to find some way to keep it when they changed it later.

TiamatRoar wrote:
If Malcador has a tank named after him, then people are going to know who he is, just like Macharius and Lemon Russ.

Then I guess Arkhan Land must be the most famous of all, with three tanks named after him. Yet I can hardly find any reference to people actually knowing who he is. And most player do not either.
I mean, when you hear about some tank model name, do you inquire about where the name come from ? I know I do not, usually.

TiamatRoar wrote:
GW has gone out of its way to say that names like Dante, Logan, and Calgar are well known across the Imperium in Dante's book

I do not know, I have not read it. Is it the small thing that was released for the advent calendar stuff ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
If Malcador has a tank named after him, then people are going to know who he is, just like Macharius and Lemon Russ.

Then I guess Arkhan Land must be the most famous of all, with three tanks named after him. Yet I can hardly find any reference to people actually knowing who he is. And most player do not either.
I mean, when you hear about some tank model name, do you inquire about where the name come from ? I know I do not, usually.

Yeah, but do you know who William Tecumseh Sherman is? :p Without looking at google.

*shakes head* Man! what nerds! only joking
Btw, I know who Sherman is!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yeah, but do you know who William Tecumseh Sherman is? :p Without looking at google.

Yes, I know who Sherman is, although admittingly that's because a long time ago I looked him up after seeing the tank with his name on it. But really, who says an Imperial citizen can't do the same thing? Although the Imperium isn't exactly well-known for informing it's citizens, that doesn't apply to its propaganda. If an Imperial Guardsman or citizen were to look at a Leman Russ tank and ask "Why is it named Leman Russ?", I'm sure the answer will be readily available somewhere, be it in books, storytellers, data crystals, or even just the local arbiter, ecclesiarch, commander, or commissar trying to prep up morale and loyalty. "Leman Russ was a Primarch that kicked the ass of humanity's enemies, just like this tank is about to do!"

And again, the Imperium is in a constant state of war. People are more aware of tanks and other warfare vehicles when a war is going on.

Yes, I know who Sherman is, although admittingly that's because a long time ago I looked him up after seeing the tank with his name on it. But really, who says an Imperial citizen can't do the same thing?

I honestly doubt the Imperium has google or something equivalent to it, considering data is often sent through dataslates which are checked by tech-seers.

Yes, I know who Sherman is, although admittingly that's because a long time ago I looked him up after seeing the tank with his name on it. But really, who says an Imperial citizen can't do the same thing?

Vast swaths of the Imperial citizenry are functionally illiterate. The media is largely state-run, and knowledge is not freely disseminated (and is, in fact, actively suppressed by the Arbites, the Ecclesiarchy, and the Inquisition).

Ignorance is Strength. Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

 Psienesis wrote:

Yes, I know who Sherman is, although admittingly that's because a long time ago I looked him up after seeing the tank with his name on it. But really, who says an Imperial citizen can't do the same thing?

Vast swaths of the Imperial citizenry are functionally illiterate. The media is largely state-run, and knowledge is not freely disseminated (and is, in fact, actively suppressed by the Arbites, the Ecclesiarchy, and the Inquisition).

Ignorance is Strength. Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

Wow, it sounds almost like 21st century Earth!
But on topic: That may be, but the Imperium loves propaganda all the same. Naming a tank after a heroic legendary figure is an excellent propaganda opportunity. It would be a shame too waste it. And on more highly developed planets citizens could have acces to more 'information'.

There's no "internet" in the Imperium, though there's all sorts of Administratum and other data "intranets". Even highly-developed worlds have an Inquisitorial and Arbites presence, not to mention the Ecclesiarchy.

There's no "just google it!" option. If you want to know something, you have to go to a librarium, access to which you require authorization, and to read anything but the most sanitized, state-approved propaganda requires Inquisitor-levels of authority.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

The Primarchs were around far longer than Malcador however. And they weren't just ordinary heroes like Malcador, the were the Emperor's sons. Even much more so than the 'common' Astartes, they carry a huge religious significance to the people of the Imperium.

Just a little something here: Malcador was not only "a hero".
Not saying he should be "more famous" than a Primarch in the 40k setting, but he was the Emperor´s companion, his right hand. Both during the Unification Wars and the Great Crusade, he was the Emperor´s voice, acting in his stead. Horus led the armies through the rest of the Crusade, but the Emperor delegated his power on the High Lords of Terra, with Malcador as their leader. The Regent. The founder of the Inquisition and the master of the Assassins. And he was around far more time than many of the Primarchs.

Actually, most people living in the Imperium know nothing. Chaos, the Heresy, the Inquisition... all is hidden from them. But (imo) the (very) few educated citizens who know something about the history of the Imperium know Malcador´s name, if only for the tank. Perhaps only "he was the first High Lord" or "he was in charge when the Emperor was not around".

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
And do the Sisters not hold the Astartes in high regard?

They do not. Since 2nd edition codex.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
But if it is so, it would likely have to do with the disdain the Astartes have for the SoB.

Well, the actual fluff says that they respect each other's martial prowess, actually. It is more about the fact the Astartes do not worship the Emperor, and that they are not humans. And therefore flirt with the line of “mutant/xenos abomination that should be purged”.

 Psienesis wrote:

Yes, I know who Sherman is, although admittingly that's because a long time ago I looked him up after seeing the tank with his name on it. But really, who says an Imperial citizen can't do the same thing?

Vast swaths of the Imperial citizenry are functionally illiterate. The media is largely state-run, and knowledge is not freely disseminated (and is, in fact, actively suppressed by the Arbites, the Ecclesiarchy, and the Inquisition).

Ignorance is Strength. Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
There's no "internet" in the Imperium, though there's all sorts of Administratum and other data "intranets". Even highly-developed worlds have an Inquisitorial and Arbites presence, not to mention the Ecclesiarchy.

There's no "just google it!" option. If you want to know something, you have to go to a librarium, access to which you require authorization, and to read anything but the most sanitized, state-approved propaganda requires Inquisitor-levels of authority.

I don't know why you bothered mentioning this when the rest of my post, that you so conveniently left out of your quote, clearly explained the context of my statement.

Although the Imperium isn't exactly well-known for informing it's citizens, that doesn't apply to its propaganda. If an Imperial Guardsman or citizen were to look at a Leman Russ tank and ask "Why is it named Leman Russ?", I'm sure the answer will be readily available somewhere, be it in books, storytellers, data crystals, or even just the local arbiter, ecclesiarch, commander, or commissar trying to prep up morale and loyalty. "Leman Russ was a Primarch that kicked the ass of humanity's enemies, just like this tank is about to do!"

Just as you stated, the media is controlled by the administration, the arbiters, and the ecclesiarchy. All of them would be more than happy to explain who Leman Russ is in the interest of propaganda (well, in the arbiter's case, they'd explain it out of honest pride in the Imperiam. ...at least if one somehow managed to get into a conversation with one in the first place).

Hell, any Imperial citizen who goes to church (and the Imperium has BIG churches, if official art is any indication. Official art of preachers preaching to huge masses is also out there) probably hears stories of the primarchs preached to them on a near weekly basis. It all celebrates and encourages veneration of the Emperor and love of humanity, after all.

It's in the Imperium's best interest to tell everyone about the loyalist primarchs (in a heavily propagandized positive light, obviously). If Dante, Calgar, and Logan can become well-known across the Imperium, then how the heck could the Imperium not allow Leman Russ to be? Again, you can spout all your nonsense you want about how the average civilian would be ignorant of the Imperium's heros, but GW stories CLEARLY are going along the lines of them NOT being so. Where is a single novel that shows that the (non-feral) Imperial citizenryship doesn't know who these guys are? You have novels like the Cain novels and novels like the First and Only where they come up, as well as Dante's Advent book that says various heros are well known across the Imperium, and all of this contradicts your idea that the people of the Imperium (or at least, a marginally sized chunk of them) are ignorant of such heros.

If the people are so ignorant of the Imperium's heros, then why hasn't any novel or studio databook ever mentioned as such? Why, on the occasions it comes up (war stories don't have many opportunities to bring it up, after all) are various people typically knowledgeable about the Imperium big names? Clearly the novel and story writers of the closest thing to Warhammer 40k's "canon" disagree with your assessment. Otherwise we'd see more stories about citizens ignorant of Imperium big names rather than the other way around.