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Nah, C:SW in 2E/3E and such was definitely not bad. They had a viable take on them being exempt from Nikea (as, at the time, the Rune Priests really *were* Druids of some kind, not psykers) and the whole thing with Armageddon hadn't happened yet.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: Nah, C:SW in 2E/3E and such was definitely not bad. They had a viable take on them being exempt from Nikea (as, at the time, the Rune Priests really *were* Druids of some kind, not psykers) and the whole thing with Armageddon hadn't happened yet.
2E Terminators with entire squads of assault cannons and cyclone, being 1WS higher then their other kin.
I wasn't meaning the fluff, but the whole Marines +1 issue myself.
Humans are far more intelligent than any other animal. Humans are also the only animal that actually 'makes' things. Like tools, houses, spaceships. Other animals only use things in their natural state, if they use anything at all.
Outright falsehood. I'm not calling you a liar, I'm just informing you that you're wrong. If you'd tried to claim that humans are the only species that demonstrate an understanding of delayed gratification, you might have had a leg to stand on, since that's only been disproved in the last five years or so, but tool making? Do the research rather than just tossing out the assumptions of the 1950s.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Humans are far more intelligent than any other animal. Humans are also the only animal that actually 'makes' things. Like tools, houses, spaceships. Other animals only use things in their natural state, if they use anything at all.
Many great apes have since been shown to make tools, including chimps making spears to hunt. There is also evidence that dolphins, elephants, octopus and parrots are also capable of tool making. They are certainly capable of simple tool making, as in taking a stick and braking it to the right length, picking the right size stone or selecting an object for later use that goes beyond pure instinctual behavior.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
Magpies will bend paper clips into hooks to get food out of bottles. They've also learned to drop various nuts onto streets to let cars break them open; THEN learned to do it on a crosswalk to as to minimize the danger of getting hit by a car.
I think it's crows that will literally remember faces and hold grudges.
Seriously, don't frell with black birds of any kind. They will mess your shazbot up.
Edit: beaten by a mile and a name.
Edit 2: Youtube of the birds using cars:
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/08 12:20:53
That is because you do not know the Most Glorious chapter of them all :
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Galactic_Partridges (Usual warning, it is 1d4chan. But this page at least is SFW)
Also, you did not answer to my reasons why humans are “special” to, well, us humans.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Humans are special because we have cities, and spaceships, and atomic weapons.
We didn't get these by chance. Other animals may use tools, but they lack the ability to truly comprehend the universe with the same depth and breadth as humanity.
Primates have demonstrated the ability to think abstractly, and to use language to express thoughts.
We have the benefit of evolution to be where we are, most certainly, but to say that we are the only example of Terran-based life that will ever exhibit such traits is... speculative, at best.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: Primates have demonstrated the ability to think abstractly, and to use language to express thoughts.
We have the benefit of evolution to be where we are, most certainly, but to say that we are the only example of Terran-based life that will ever exhibit such traits is... speculative, at best.
Well until they exhibit the ability to rival our understanding of the universe, then I will continue to think of humans as superior.
EDIT: As a philosophy major, I would enjoy watching a primate trying to even articulate the problems we attempt to solve on a daily basis, not to mention make as much progress as we have towards solving them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/08 22:22:39
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Yes. For example, philosophers have managed to determine several ways in which science can be distinguished from pseudo-science, which is actually a problem. Many people cannot articulate why something is a pseudo-science while something else is real science, even if they're both new and mysterious.
As another example, philosophers have proven that the conventional definition of freedom, that is, defining freedom as "to do what you want" is in error. Freedom is not 'doing what you want,' else, it would be possible to be entire free while being a slave, so long as you want nothing. Basically, the fewer wants you have, the more free you are, according to that definition. For further information, google 'the Stoic objection to the Desire Thesis.'
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/08 22:32:26
Well until they exhibit the ability to rival our understanding of the universe, then I will continue to think of humans as superior.
This indicates why Philosophy 101 is generally a freebie credit.
We lack the ability to communicate with apes, though scientists have exhibited significant success in teaching them ASL. Through this, great apes have demonstrated the ability to express fairly complex thoughts, especially considering that this far exceeds what had previously been considered beyond their ability.
Given that, it's quite possible that the Great Apes are very capable of esoteric conceptualization... we just lack the ability to speak with them.
Just because I don't speak Chinese does not mean that I consider the Chinese to be inferior to myself, after all.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Well until they exhibit the ability to rival our understanding of the universe, then I will continue to think of humans as superior.
This indicates why Philosophy 101 is generally a freebie credit.
We lack the ability to communicate with apes, though scientists have exhibited significant success in teaching them ASL. Through this, great apes have demonstrated the ability to express fairly complex thoughts, especially considering that this far exceeds what had previously been considered beyond their ability.
Given that, it's quite possible that the Great Apes are very capable of esoteric conceptualization... we just lack the ability to speak with them.
Just because I don't speak Chinese does not mean that I consider the Chinese to be inferior to myself, after all.
I have seen evidence that primates can distinguish between writing and chickenscratch. I have read that they can multiply numbers in their head. All of this is to their credit.
But I have not seen evidence of any progress on their part - they may be capable of abstract thought, but they're incapable of building cities, or atomic bombs, or spaceships. And this means that there is something they are missing in their understanding. After all, they've had as much time on this earth as we have, if not more.
EDIT: Let me put it this way: until we can negotiate with them for their resources, and until they can offer serious resistance to our hegemony, I feel they are not on the same intellectual level as us.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/08 22:45:20
But I have not seen evidence of any progress on their part - they may be capable of abstract thought, but they're incapable of building cities, or atomic bombs, or spaceships. And this means that there is something they are missing in their understanding. After all, they've had as much time on this earth as we have, if not more.
Incapable of doing so, or lacking any need to?
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
But I have not seen evidence of any progress on their part - they may be capable of abstract thought, but they're incapable of building cities, or atomic bombs, or spaceships. And this means that there is something they are missing in their understanding. After all, they've had as much time on this earth as we have, if not more.
Incapable of doing so, or lacking any need to?
If they don't see a need for the benefits of those things, then they're even stupider than they would be if they were incapable of achieving them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/08 22:53:51
Psienesis wrote: What are the benefits of living in a city? What are the benefits of flying out into space? What are the benefits of developing nuclear weapons?
Mutual defense between the citizens.
Exploration.
Self-Defense from aggressors and (it has been proposed) natural disasters.
EDIT: Let's put it this way: Why do you think cities came to exist? More precisely than my answer above, it allows for the efficient distribution of resources as well as making defending oneself easier. It is the natural consequence of the development of agriculture.
Why do you think people explore anything? It is in search of new information. If you do not see the benefits in exploring the universe around us, there is very little I can do to demonstrate it to you, aside from perhaps showing you 'horses' which were not something people who lived in America knew about before the arrival of explorers from other lands, or 'bananas' which are things that Europeans did not know about until explorers discovered them.
Why do you think the atomic bomb was developed? It was an answer to an implacable enemy waging a war of extermination of a select people, and said enemy's allies. Since then, the splitting of the atom has been used to power entire cities, has been proposed as a method to defend ourselves from inadvertent orbital bombardment, and has likely prevented several devastating wars.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/08 23:02:08
It was an answer to an implacable enemy waging a war of extermination of a select people
Except the scientists who developed said atomic weapon were previously Nazis. The Allies just, basically, stole them. It's a little more complex than that, but we did not develop "the bomb" in a response to the Holocaust. To think we did is... idealistic, at best.
Space exploration is an outgrowth of defense spending. It was also, from an American viewpoint, "beating those damned Commies", as they had beaten us to the punch for a probe in space. As time went on, of course, we found valuable scientific uses for space exploration, but that was not what was pushing it in the early days.
Cities started as concentrations of agriculture, of course... but now a city has to import its food and, if a city were to be somehow cut off from the outside world. it would starve itself to death within a couple months. Most cities now are anything but centers of agricultural production, and with the spread of suburban areas, generally speaking, one has to travel a significant distance to find an area of agricultural production.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Humans are far more intelligent than any other animal. Humans are also the only animal that actually 'makes' things. Like tools, houses, spaceships. Other animals only use things in their natural state, if they use anything at all
All primates are tool-using creatures. Try again.
They use 'tools' (if you want to call sticks and stones tools that it), but they do not actually make things. They use sticks and stones, but they do not take a stick and a sharp stone and turn it into an axe. The most intelligent apes may use a sharp stick to hunt, but they do not turn this stick into an actual spear. Humans are the only ones who take natural resources and turn it into something else. All others just use natural resources in their natural state with little modification. That is one of the things seperating humans from mere animals.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/09 00:21:25
Humans are far more intelligent than any other animal. Humans are also the only animal that actually 'makes' things. Like tools, houses, spaceships. Other animals only use things in their natural state, if they use anything at all
All primates are tool-using creatures. Try again.
They use 'tools' (if you want to call sticks and stones tools that it), but they do not actually make things. They do not take a stick and a sharp stone and turn it into an axe. Humans are the only ones who take natural resources and turn it into something else. All others just use natural resources 'as is'.
That is what seperates humans from mere animals.
Wrong again. Gorillas have been known to sake sticks and shape them to get termites out of their hills so that the gorillas could eat them. Toool using is a very old defnition of humans, it was changed after it was discovered that gorillas, and even crows, make an use tools. The discovery was actually quite a shock to a lot of people, and shook up some of the sciences a bit.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
The Wolves don't have much respect for Imperial Authorities that post-date the Heresy, and general lack of respect in general. But they're loyalty cannot be questioned.
They are so fanatically loyal the Black Templars could probably take notes.
But the Wolves separate the Imperium from many of its members. Inquisitors are judged on their own merits and aren't to be followed blindly. The Wolves have their own view of what serving the Emperor means, and that can be at odds with other members of the Imperium, who have both their own agendas as well as the Imperium as a whole.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
The problem is, there's something going on on Fenris that, to an outside perspective, looks *really* suspicious, especially given the Wolves' reaction to investigation.
Not sure if the studio is going to do anything with that, but it's certainly an interesting story-seed.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Humans are far more intelligent than any other animal. Humans are also the only animal that actually 'makes' things. Like tools, houses, spaceships. Other animals only use things in their natural state, if they use anything at all
All primates are tool-using creatures. Try again.
They use 'tools' (if you want to call sticks and stones tools that it), but they do not actually make things. They do not take a stick and a sharp stone and turn it into an axe. Humans are the only ones who take natural resources and turn it into something else. All others just use natural resources 'as is'. That is what seperates humans from mere animals.
Wrong again. Gorillas have been known to sake sticks and shape them to get termites out of their hills so that the gorillas could eat them. Toool using is a very old defnition of humans, it was changed after it was discovered that gorillas, and even crows, make an use tools. The discovery was actually quite a shock to a lot of people, and shook up some of the sciences a bit.
They still do not actually turn this stick into something else. It is still a stick.
Psienesis wrote: The problem is, there's something going on on Fenris that, to an outside perspective, looks *really* suspicious, especially given the Wolves' reaction to investigation.
Not sure if the studio is going to do anything with that, but it's certainly an interesting story-seed.
I have always assumed that it had to do with the Wolves' worship of the native Fenrisian gods.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/09 01:01:09
They turn it into a *sharp* stick. Those things are dangerous, you could put an eye out or something. If people would stop looking at them, they might reveal themselves to be Jokaero...
... oh wait. I think I just solved the issue of the declining Great Ape populations. We've been had!
...and, yes, I'm sure it does have something to do with the worship of the native Fenrisian gods... but the Ecclesiarchy is very, very good at adapting local religions into the greater fold of the Imperial Creed... so if the Fenrisians are actually worshipping something that isn't the God-Emperor, then they are pagan heretics and should be exterminated. Mercy is the sin of the foolish.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
It was an answer to an implacable enemy waging a war of extermination of a select people
Except the scientists who developed said atomic weapon were previously Nazis. The Allies just, basically, stole them. It's a little more complex than that, but we did not develop "the bomb" in a response to the Holocaust. To think we did is... idealistic, at best.
Space exploration is an outgrowth of defense spending. It was also, from an American viewpoint, "beating those damned Commies", as they had beaten us to the punch for a probe in space. As time went on, of course, we found valuable scientific uses for space exploration, but that was not what was pushing it in the early days.
Cities started as concentrations of agriculture, of course... but now a city has to import its food and, if a city were to be somehow cut off from the outside world. it would starve itself to death within a couple months. Most cities now are anything but centers of agricultural production, and with the spread of suburban areas, generally speaking, one has to travel a significant distance to find an area of agricultural production.
We did not develop the bomb in response to the Holocaust, but we did it to defeat the people perpetuating the Holocaust, because they were waging a war of domination against us. I think the development of the bomb is a positive thing.
Perhaps "beating the commies" was the American reason for putting things in space, but the original people who researched rocketry did so because of its potential for exploration of space as much as they did it for defense.
Modern cities still have benefits in administration and resource distribution. Tell me, do you think the human race would be better off if it did not ever live in cities?
Unit1126PLL wrote: For example, philosophers have managed to determine several ways in which science can be distinguished from pseudo-science, which is actually a problem.
I thought scientists did that.
Unit1126PLL wrote: As another example, philosophers have proven that the conventional definition of freedom, that is, defining freedom as "to do what you want" is in error.
Was that really a problem ? Is a definition not always a convention anyway ?
I wonder which animals look for the right definition of freedom.
They are so fanatically loyal the Black Templars could probably take notes.
I do not know, how many Black Templars defected to join the ranks of the Red Corsairs ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/09 08:55:21
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Unit1126PLL wrote: For example, philosophers have managed to determine several ways in which science can be distinguished from pseudo-science, which is actually a problem.
I thought scientists did that.
From Wikipedia (Pseudoscience)
Scientific methodology
Spoiler:
While the standards for determining whether a body of knowledge, methodology, or practice is scientific can vary from field to field, a number of basic principles are widely agreed upon by scientists. The basic notion is that all experimental results should be reproducible, and able to be verified by other individuals. These principles aim to ensure experiments can be measurably reproduced under the same conditions, allowing further investigation to determine whether a hypothesis or theory related to given phenomena is both valid and reliable. Standards require the scientific method to be applied throughout, and bias will be controlled for or eliminated through randomization, fair sampling procedures, blinding of studies, and other methods. All gathered data, including the experimental or environmental conditions, are expected to be documented for scrutiny and made available for peer review, allowing further experiments or studies to be conducted to confirm or falsify results. Statistical quantification of significance, confidence, and error are also important tools for the scientific method.
If you cannot reproduce the results then it is not science. Everyone able to reproduce the experiment should get the same result, save statistical error.
If you do not collect data and make it available to others, it is not science.
They are so fanatically loyal the Black Templars could probably take notes.
Loyalty to what?
They openly despise (and ocassionaly wage war against) the Imperium and their leaders. And it was the Emperor´s decission to grant all power to the High Lords of Terra, so they are not exactly following the Emperor´s orders.
They do what they thing they should do. That´s why they are rebels. Loyal is like the opposite of rebel.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/09 13:38:59
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
Unit1126PLL wrote: For example, philosophers have managed to determine several ways in which science can be distinguished from pseudo-science, which is actually a problem.
I thought scientists did that.
[…] While the standards for determining whether a body of knowledge, methodology, or practice is scientific can vary from field to field, a number of basic principles are widely agreed upon by scientists. […]
Emphasis and ellipsis are mine. Really, I think scientists worked on that, rather than philosophers. Philosophers were busy with other stuff, like what is a good definition for freedom.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/09 13:41:02
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
