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Well, we should try re-reading all this fluff with the Galactic Partridge theory in mind. Like that Inquisitor from the First War for Armageddon. What if the wolves had dealt a pact with him, sent assassin to kill all his superior so that he could be in charge, and conspire with him to make themselves look good at the expense of the lives of all those civilians ?

I never will understand the hatred SOB fans have for the space marines.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, we should try re-reading all this fluff with the Galactic Partridge theory in mind. Like that Inquisitor from the First War for Armageddon. What if the wolves had dealt a pact with him, sent assassin to kill all his superior so that he could be in charge, and conspire with him to make themselves look good at the expense of the lives of all those civilians ?

The Space Wolves are rather Gary Stu-ish. But that still doesn't change the fact that your own claims and attempts to downplay what they are in the fluff, gary-stu-ish or not, are ridiculously inaccurate. You can criticize that the fluff itself is stupid or nonsensical, but when you say things like this (which is clearly untrue given that we've seen the perspectives of various individuals involved as well as finer details regarding the First War for Armegeddon in a novel), "the wolves are unknown throughout the galaxy", or "Leman Russ is only known as a smelly noisy tank", that's more YOUR headcanon than anything to do with any fluff example ever presented.

While one has the right to play around with their own head canon, it's likely hardly relevant to the topic at hand in this case. I'm pretty sure the original poster is more interested in things from Games Workshop regarding the Space Wolves rather than the stuff you come up with which various fluff pieces generally seems to contradict. Or at least speculations that are actually COMPATIBLE with the fluff as it's been presented.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I never will understand the hatred SOB fans have for the space marines.

Not all SoB fans dislike them, actually. It's not really fair to make a generalisation like that.

I'm basing my generalizations on what the sisters of battle fans say. It also makes sense when I think about it different personality types like different factions and will be repelled by others. Eldar are for organized depressives, Chaos is for disorganized depressives, Sisters are for organized manics, orks would be for disorganized manics, and Marines would be for logical types. Also the Astartes are essentially heretics so the Sisters are naturally their rivals and as Chaos fan i've always admired their subversive opposition to the lie the Imperium has become, I actually quite like the old Imperium with Primarchs, just not the knew creepy one ran by religious frauds, aristocrats and trench coated creeps.

So what am I?
I play Space Wolves [1989], Dark Angels [1998], Space Marines [1989], Grey Knights [1999], Imperial Guard [1991] and are now buildin a Tau Army.

@Ironclad
It's fine to like other things, just try not generalise, okay? Quite a few SoB fans don't actually dislike Marines. As Furyou said, a lot of the debating just stems from them being adament on what their fluff says rather than some hatred of Marines.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I'm basing my generalizations on what the sisters of battle fans say.

And, to be fair, not all of us are here in the background section debating about the fluff. Quite a few are more over in the tactics or general subforum, so you shouldn't really base it all on what you see here.

Generalizing is ok so long as you allow exceptions to the rule. Your an exception, Chaos fans are often slightly "different" maybe i'm an exception maybe i'm not, so what. Their are worse generalization than not liking another plastic army.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
and Marines would be for logical types.

Just… what?
What exactly is logic about playing bio-engineered space monk-super soldiers with magicians among their rank, which turns their tanks and armors into almost religious relics ? Especially for the brands that are so obsessed with wolves that they name everything or anything with a name related to wolves, or who actually crave for blood and can burn a fuse and lost contact with reality, or who are totally paranoid. Certainly the Imperial Guard is based on much more rational principles than marines, and the army which is really epitome of rationalization in the setting, afaik, are tau.

Also, I hope you do not consider yourself logic because you like the totalitarian xenophobic violent ultra militaristic dystopian mess that was the Imperium even before the Horus Heresy.


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TiamatRoar wrote:
You can criticize that the fluff itself is stupid or nonsensical, but when you say things like this (which is clearly untrue given that we've seen the perspectives of various individuals involved as well as finer details regarding the First War for Armegeddon in a novel), "the wolves are unknown throughout the galaxy", or "Leman Russ is only known as a smelly noisy tank", that's more YOUR headcanon than anything to do with any fluff example ever presented.

So, you are not able to say when I am japing and when I am serious. I guess I should have used some orkmoticons.

Also, I hope you do not consider yourself logic because you like the totalitarian xenophobic violent ultra militaristic dystopian mess that was the Imperium even before the Horus Heresy.

How is it xenophobic, its quite egalitarian, humanity united regardless of race color or creed. The problem is that you have things like Chaos lurking in the corner and the Imperium was going to die one way or another.


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who actually crave for blood

What's wrong with that?

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

Also, I hope you do not consider yourself logic because you like the totalitarian xenophobic violent ultra militaristic dystopian mess that was the Imperium even before the Horus Heresy.

How is it xenophobic, its quite egalitarian, humanity united regardless of race color or creed.

How is trying to kill all the “xenos” xenophobic ? I do not know. Really, that is a pretty good question. Maybe because it is about killing other living creatures for being different ?


I heard excessive paranoia and loss of connection to the real world to relive some past event because your drank some blood was the epitome of logic. I was not convinced .

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I never will understand the hatred SOB fans have for the space marines.

Putting aside the sins of generalisation and assumption, how is this even relevant? I'm not just a Sisters fan, after all. I'm also a Tzeentch and Necron fan.

We aren't arguing in a Space Wolf thread because we hate Space Marines. We're arguing in a Space Wolves thread because the Space Wolves are bloody ridiculous Garou Stus who survive by Adam Westing the entire rest of the setting whenever they appear.

I mean, come on. Name a Space Wolf novel where a Non-wolf Space Marine shows some modicum of the awesome and intelligence that a Space Wolf can tote out on a whim?

How is trying to kill all the “xenos” xenophobic ? I do not know. Really, that is a pretty good question. Maybe because it is about killing other living creatures for being different ?

Then I must be xenophobic for eating bacon cause pigs are intelligent creatures. This isn't the xenophobia most people talk about.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

How is trying to kill all the “xenos” xenophobic ? I do not know. Really, that is a pretty good question. Maybe because it is about killing other living creatures for being different ?

Then I must be xenophobic for eating bacon cause pigs are intelligent creatures. This isn't the xenophobia most people talk about.

It is a complete aversion and instant desire to kill anything different. That's why the imperiums automatic response to seeing even a peaceful alien race is to enact genocide.

The real-use term of "xenophobia" is not quite the same thing as is used in 40k, where the term there is taken literally. We use the term "alien" in the real world to talk about people who aren't native to a given country. In 40k, it's something that isn't even human.

And egalitarian? No, not even slightly. It's a predominantly feudal structure, with very clear lines of authority. Just because you are better than a Xeno, being a human, does not mean you have anywhere near the respect, authority or power afforded to a Space Marine or an Inquisitor. Either one of these people can kill you at a moment's notice and suffer not the slightest censure.

But this is not the place to apply pop-psychology to why people choose the armies they choose. I play SoB because I like the whole religious fanaticism thing without the super-soldier serums, and because they're an army you just don't see every day on the table (though collecting them is hard as hell). I like the fluff behind Orks, Chaos, most studio-created SM, and I think the Tau are a cute idea but have been badly-handled in the publications about them. I absolutely love Necrons, and think the New-Cron re-write is the best thing that could have happened to them.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I must be xenophobic for eating bacon cause pigs are intelligent creatures. This isn't the xenophobia most people talk about.

It is funny that you mention that, because
A) you may never have noticed, but the Imperium has no qualms about aliens with a pig-level of intelligence, like grox or jokaero. Because they are considered animals. But yeah, you sure do not see the difference between destroying whole civilizations and raising foodstock
B) pigs are indeed intelligent creatures, and that is why I am vegetarian .

Pigs are intelligent creatures, and that's why I only avoid human meat because of prion diseases.

Pigs are intelligent creatures, and that's why I only avoid human meat because of prion diseases.

Just make sure to cook well(I know it drys it out) and by from a reputable vender and you should be fine.


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What exactly is logic about playing bio-engineered space monk-super soldiers

Ok then thier just going for the mary sue starter army then.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Just make sure to cook well(I know it drys it out) and by from a reputable vender and you should be fine.

I do not think there are reputable human flesh vendors.
I also think it is pretty illogical to expect that an herbivorous animal been given MBM to have the same effect as some omnivorous animal eating flesh. Because, you know, MBM is not flesh, and an omnivorous animal has the right digestive system to handle flesh while an herbivorous animal does not.
So, not to sound rude, but that idea that eating human flesh will give you prions is, huh, well, kind off stupid, really. There is absolutely no reasons it would do so. Might as well argue that eating human flesh will give you cooties.

Well, everything I know about why cannibalism is a bad idea comes from a TV show I saw when I was ten, so eh. There's also the practical issues. Pork is much easier to get. I'd try horse if it was more readily available though. Feel a bit awkward eating dog, since I have the soppiest alsatian ever born.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Pigs are intelligent creatures, and that's why I only avoid human meat because of prion diseases.

...
This is one of the most disturbing things I have read on Dakka so far...
*Runs away from Furyou Miko as fast as he can* (I am not afraid, I am just moving to better tactical position)

 Iron_Captain wrote:
(I am not afraid, I am just moving to better tactical position)

Yeah that´s what that Ultramarine said too... we never saw him again. God of War my ass.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I never will understand the hatred SOB fans have for the space marines.(...)
I'm basing my generalizations on what the sisters of battle fans say. It also makes sense when I think about it different personality types like different factions and will be repelled by others. Eldar are for organized depressives, Chaos is for disorganized depressives, Sisters are for organized manics, orks would be for disorganized manics, and Marines would be for logical types. Also the Astartes are essentially heretics so the Sisters are naturally their rivals and as Chaos fan i've always admired their subversive opposition to the lie the Imperium has become, I actually quite like the old Imperium with Primarchs, just not the knew creepy one ran by religious frauds, aristocrats and trench coated creeps.

I think that´s a big generalization and quite an unfair one. First things first: many people have multiple armies.

Marines of whatever flavor is the first army for many players and you see a lot of newbies, sometimes very young, playing them, typically claiming that they are the best at everything, that 5 marines can destroy a hive fleet or conquer an entire world and such. It gets annoying, not only for Sister´s players, but for any not-marine faction´s player. At least it irks me. Being essentially "female marines", marine fanboys´ attacks are sometimes mixed with a rabid teenage misogyny that get into some peoples nerves.

But I don´t think the average SOB fan has a grudge against the average Marine player.

At all.

Also... "logical types" play marines? Seriously? Wouldn´t that people play IG? They are the only human, normal faction in the game.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
There's also the practical issues. Pork is much easier to get. I'd try horse if it was more readily available though. Feel a bit awkward eating dog, since I have the soppiest alsatian ever born.

So, basically the only reasons you quote for not eating human flesh are medical and practical, but hey, eating dog ? Now, that would feel awkward !

Iron_Captain, please leave me some place inside that better tactical position, because I am coming to it very fast !

Well, wouldn't it be? He always wants to share my dinner.

I know, I know, my attitudes are not normal. Most people who are all 'sanctity of life' and 'animals must be treated with respect' bring the animal up to human levels or something...

I just don't see what's so special about humans. After all, my dog's about as smart as the average two year old, but where the two year old will get smarter and nastier as they age, my dog will only get more loyal and obedient with age.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I just don't see what's so special about humans.

Well, they are more like you than any other animal, and you can communicate with them way better if you put some effort into it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
After all, my dog's about as smart as the average two year old, but where the two year old will get smarter and nastier as they age, my dog will only get more loyal and obedient with age.

Is loyal and obedient a good thing where you live ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
After all, my dog's about as smart as the average two year old, but where the two year old will get smarter and nastier as they age, my dog will only get more loyal and obedient with age.

Is loyal and obedient a good thing where you live ?

Come to think of it, dogs would make perfect Imperial citizens

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I just don't see what's so special about humans.

Humans are far more intelligent than any other animal. Humans are also the only animal that actually 'makes' things. Like tools, houses, spaceships. Other animals only use things in their natural state, if they use anything at all.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, we should try re-reading all this fluff with the Galactic Partridge theory in mind. Like that Inquisitor from the First War for Armageddon. What if the wolves had dealt a pact with him, sent assassin to kill all his superior so that he could be in charge, and conspire with him to make themselves look good at the expense of the lives of all those civilians ?

All Glory Belongs to the Partridges!

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Come to think of it, dogs would make perfect Imperial citizens

Is that not how Chaos followers call the loyalists already ? Lapdogs of the false Emperor ?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Other animals only use things in their natural state, if they use anything at all.

Let me introduce you to the beaver. Or the ants. Or…

 Iron_Captain wrote:
All Glory Belongs to the Partridges!

All glory !

Humans are far more intelligent than any other animal. Humans are also the only animal that actually 'makes' things. Like tools, houses, spaceships. Other animals only use things in their natural state, if they use anything at all

All primates are tool-using creatures. Try again.

Space Wolves are dicks. Four word answer.

Basically...

... but it is actually more an author problem than it is a built-in faction problem.