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No they go to the Grey Knights, the Minotaurs, and the Red Hunters.

Not according to the Codices published over the last 25 years.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

go-to unit the Imperium has for purging Space Marine Chapters.

No they go to the Grey Knights, the Minotaurs, and the Red Hunters.

While they're not necessarily the go-to force for purging Space Marines, they are certainly one of them. Here are what some various sources say about it:
- A WD article on renegade Marines says " Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause then elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against the wayward chapter."
- Citadel Journal #49 says "The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite Strike Force of the Adepta Sororitas". It apparently also had an arm list representing such a strike force.
- And in the 6E SoB codex, it's noted that the Sisters have purged multiple Marine Chapters for heresy.

So, they are certainly capable of doing the deed and are regarded as such, it seems.

As for the Red Hunters, where are you getting that from? They are closely linked to the Inquisition, yeah, but as far as I'm aware they're not noted as being used to fight other Marines. No more than Astartes Chapters in general, anyway.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Now we have it, how these conversations always end, its either because i'm afraid of girls, can't get any, or am gay.

You missed the part where I insisted on the power trip analysis .

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
People weep before primarchs, they welded psychic powers and the demon primarchs can destroy planets with their f@cking MINDS.

Too bad they never cared to destroy Terra or Cadia or something. Actually, they are too afraid of Draigo to do that or something . But yeah, some also had psychic power. Is that supposed to make it less of a power trip ?

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
primarchs led their armies from one triumph to another

Well, actually their armies went from one triumph to another even before the primarchs were found. Think on it.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
in 10,000 the Imperium with the Sisters Guard, and Marines can barely hold it together. If Lorgar had got his way humanity would be colonizing other galaxies

Okay, do you know who assumed command after the Heresy ? Guess who ! Guilliman, a Primarch ! So, obviously, putting a primarch in charge does not mean everything will be awesome. And here we are talking about a quite down-to-earth, reasonable primarch. With a crazy one like Lorgar, well… humanity would not be colonizing other galaxies, it would actually be in a way worse position than it is now, but on the positive side, there would be huge cathedrals everywhere . And that is assuming he got his way before he fell to Chaos. If he had it after… humanity would have ceased to exist as anything else than sacrifice fodder for daemons or something.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
so yes i'd rather follow him than a religion that Lorgar himself created and then admitted was wrong.

Nope, the dogma of the Ecclesiarchy are based on the later teachings of Fatidicus, with the amendment that Thor brought from the Confederation of Light. Nothing comes from Lorgar's Lectitio Divinitatus, or at least it has never been stated.

You missed the part where I insisted on the power trip analysis

If I were into power trips why would I like the lost and the damned.

Too bad they never cared to destroy Terra or Cadia or something. Actually, they are too afraid of Draigo to do that or something . But yeah, some also had psychic power. Is that supposed to make it less of a power trip ?

I think the demon primarch fluff is just as bad as the draigo stuff but according to both the imperials and chaos the demon primarchs can "destroy planets with their minds" in both Emperors Gift and Angel Exsterminatus.

Guess who ! Guilliman, a Primarch !

Who died pretty soon after he saved the Imperium, after that things fell apart without the second emperor ruling it. Really the whole benevolent dictator thing isn't so bad if the dictator is immortal its actually quite efficient.

Nope, the dogma of the Ecclesiarchy are based on the later teachings of Fatidicus, with the amendment that Thor brought from the Confederation of Light. Nothing comes from Lorgar's Lectitio Divinitatus, or at least it has never been stated.

The new horus heresy fluff has Lorgar inventing it.

humanity would have ceased to exist as anything else than sacrifice fodder for daemons or something.

You wouldn't have the astronomicon drawing the tyranids, necrons and elder would be wiped out, and the orks probably would always be nuisance but without the other threats would be easily contained.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I think the demon primarch fluff is just as bad as the draigo stuff but according to both the imperials and chaos the demon primarchs can "destroy planets with their minds" in both Emperors Gift and Angel Exsterminatus.

Okay, so that validates my hypothesis. They do not do it because they are too afraid of Draigo.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Who died pretty soon after he saved the Imperium, after that things fell apart without the second emperor ruling it.

He saved the Imperium ? Why ? How ? From what ?
Things fell apart after he died ? I thought things fell apart before, like for instance when Horus decided to go kill the Emperor or something.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Really the whole benevolent dictator thing isn't so bad if the dictator is immortal its actually quite efficient.

Telling me about morality .
Anyhow, that is exactly what the Sisters want for the Imperium. The Emperor is the benevolent dictator. But somehow, this becomes bad when it is not a super-human that says it.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
The new horus heresy fluff has Lorgar inventing it.

No. The new Horus Heresy fluff has Lorgar inventing something vaguely similar to it, and you are assuming it is the same while that was never stated.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
You wouldn't have the astronomicon drawing the tyranids, necrons and elder would be wiped out, and the orks probably would always be nuisance but without the other threats would be easily contained.

How so ? By magic ? He would think them gone and POOF ! they would disappear ? Or he would go beat them with a stick, like in some good old power-fantasy ? Being a primarch does not make him a better general, or administrator, than a very talented human. There would be way better about every possible civilian positions, and even from the military point of view, his individual prowess would not mean much at a galactic scale !

 Troike wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

go-to unit the Imperium has for purging Space Marine Chapters.

No they go to the Grey Knights, the Minotaurs, and the Red Hunters.

While they're not necessarily the go-to force for purging Space Marines, they are certainly one of them. Here are what some various sources say about it:
- A WD article on renegade Marines says " Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause then elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against the wayward chapter."
- Citadel Journal #49 says "The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite Strike Force of the Adepta Sororitas". It apparently also had an arm list representing such a strike force.
- And in the 6E SoB codex, it's noted that the Sisters have purged multiple Marine Chapters for heresy.

So, they are certainly capable of doing the deed and are regarded as such, it seems.

As for the Red Hunters, where are you getting that from? They are closely linked to the Inquisition, yeah, but as far as I'm aware they're not noted as being used to fight other Marines. No more than Astartes Chapters in general, anyway.

The Sisters of Battle frequently act as the military arm of the Ordo Hereticus. And as it is the duty of the Ordo Hereticus to purge heretical Space Marine chapters, the SoB are frequently employed in this role, alongside other military forces associated with the Inquisition.
The Red Hunters are one such chapter, their fluff says they were likely founded right after the Horus Heresy specially for the purpose of hunting down traitor Space Marines.

Before the Heresy, the Space Wolves served this role, their fierce loyalty only to the Emperor himself making them perfectly suitable for this task. Of course, it is also the reason they were no longer suitable for it after the Heresy.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Okay, so that validates my hypothesis. They do not do it because they are too afraid of Draigo.

That is silly.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Who died pretty soon after he saved the Imperium, after that things fell apart without the second emperor ruling it.

He saved the Imperium ? Why ? How ? From what ?
Things fell apart after he died ? I thought things fell apart before, like for instance when Horus decided to go kill the Emperor or something.

That is true, but Guilliman is the one who put the Imperium back in shape after the Emperor was gone, and he is the one who instituted the High Lords to rule in the Emperor's absence.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Really the whole benevolent dictator thing isn't so bad if the dictator is immortal its actually quite efficient.

Telling me about morality .
Anyhow, that is exactly what the Sisters want for the Imperium. The Emperor is the benevolent dictator. But somehow, this becomes bad when it is not a super-human that says it.

A rotten corpse on a throne does not really make a benevolent dictator, does it? Especially considering the corpse can't speak or really manipulate things in the material universe in a direct way.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
The new horus heresy fluff has Lorgar inventing it.

No. The new Horus Heresy fluff has Lorgar inventing something vaguely similar to it, and you are assuming it is the same while that was never stated.

The dogma of the Ecclessiarchy is based on the Lectitio Divinitatus which ironically was written by Lorgar. This is established fluff and has been stated many many times. The following of the Lectio became an underground cult, and after the Heresy it grew into the Temple of the Saviour Emperor and the Lectio became the basis for the Imperial Cult. The Temple of the Saviour Emperor was the largest of the post-Heresy cults and the one that later became the Ecclessiarchy after being merged with Thor's new Conderation of Light. Fatidicus was the leader of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor and thus his teachings will have come from the Lectio.
So yes, the teachings of the Ecclessiarchy are ultimately derived from the heretic Lorgar. It is one of the great ironies of 40k.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
That is true, but Guilliman is the one who put the Imperium back in shape after the Emperor was gone, and he is the one who instituted the High Lords to rule in the Emperor's absence.

Yes, he set up the Imperium to be what it is now. Which makes it particularly funny when Ironclad Warlord (so many Iron-loving officers around here !) explains that if a primarch had been in charge, the Imperium would be so much better. The Imperium is the result of a Primarch having been in charge.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
A rotten corpse on a throne does not really make a benevolent dictator, does it? Especially considering the corpse can't speak or really manipulate things in the material universe in a direct way.

We do not know if the Emperor can speak or manipulate things in the material universe. The Custodes and Alicia Dominica and her friends know, maybe. Also, Vandire tried to do that whole benevolent dictator stuff. Did not went well.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The dogma of the Ecclessiarchy is based on the Lectitio Divinitatus which ironically was written by Lorgar. This is established fluff and has been stated many many times.

You are not reading messages. I wrote “Nope, the dogma of the Ecclesiarchy are based on the later teachings of Fatidicus, with the amendment that Thor brought from the Confederation of Light. Nothing comes from Lorgar's Lectitio Divinitatus, or at least it has never been stated.”
If it has been stated, then please provide reference. Given that the Heresy series has not even reached the internment of the Emperor into the Golden Throne, and that Fatidicus, the Temple and the Confederation came long after that, there are many plot twists that can still happen.

Well that's just unfair, it's more than likely that if Guilliman had remained in his non beaten-the-crap-out-of state then the Imperium may not be the pile of crap we know and love.

On topic: Yes but no. They're drunken teenage rebels who think they know best, yet continually cock up and make fools out of themselves. The real rebels of the Imperium are probably fellas such as certain Inquisitors, or pre-spikification Badab splinter chapters.

Yes, he set up the Imperium to be what it is now. Which makes it particularly funny when Ironclad Warlord (so many Iron-loving officers around here !) explains that if a primarch had been in charge, the Imperium would be so much better. The Imperium is the result of a Primarch having been in charge.

Then Fulgrim killed him and the Imperium turned into a corrupt oligarchy ruled by nobles, priest, and the occasional space marine.

We do not know if the Emperor can speak or manipulate things in the material universe. The Custodes and Alicia Dominica and her friends know, maybe. Also, Vandire tried to do that whole benevolent dictator stuff. Did not went well.

Iron_Captain wrote:

Then why is their such a crisis as to who speaks for the Emperor if he can communicate, the big difference between Horus and big E is that ones corpse is more useful than the others.

There's several instances in various bits of BL and the other publishing arms that indicate that the Emperor can communicate telepathically with people. There's also previous fluff that indicates that he weeps for his fallen Space Marines.

 Psienesis wrote:
So, yes, stories and such can spread about the Russ, or the Primarchs themselves, but these are most likely going to be either outright fabrications or re-tellings of actual events that have grown so much in the telling as to be basically fables.

And eventually the tales make their way into the BL books and a squad or less of Marines take an entire planet.

That being said, I'm under the assumption (which we are all doing...you have to admit) that Leman Russ [Primarch] is very unknown the the bulk of the Imperial citizenry or even Guard. The only exception would be those that have been directly impacted by the Space Wolves and heard the sagas in the post-war party. His renown is limited, as most primarchs are at this point, because more recent leaders and inspirational beings are more important to speak on (Calgar, Creed...etc) to inspire or push people to duty. Examples abound in the books.

You see Marines all over with battlecries proclaiming their power gained from their Primarch, but even Guardsmen fighting beside them don't scream 'For Russ/Dorn/Guilliman!'...they're still screaming 'For the Emperor/Their Planet'.

The SW Codex explains that the SW enjoy Imperium-wide popularity because of the Great Hunts. Now, of course such events are going to be limited in scope, given as there's not a Great Hunt every year, or even every century, and there's no internet or way for news to spread beyond a localized system of planets effectively, but combine that with the Ecclesiarchy venerating the "Emperor's True Sons" as angelic/saintly/mythic figures, and I would imagine that the average Hive Worlder has probably heard of Saint Russ, and how he tied a kraken around a planet by its tentacles or some such.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Then Fulgrim killed him and the Imperium turned into a corrupt oligarchy ruled by nobles, priest, and the occasional space marine.

Guilliman set up the High Lord system. So he decided who was to rule. The High Lords are not nobles (there is no Imperial system of nobility, only local nobility). They are the leaders of the most powerful and important organization of the Imperium, as Guilliman decided they should be. They never included any space marines. Really, read the fluff !

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Then why is their such a crisis as to who speaks for the Emperor if he can communicate

There is no crisis. The High Lords speaks for the Emperor. Everyone who says otherwise is an heretic and should be purged !

hey never included any space marines. Really, read the fluff !

I'm talking about how the chapter often take command of larger operations.

There is no crisis. The High Lords speaks for the Emperor. Everyone who says otherwise is an heretic and should be purged !

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nova_Terra_Interregnum#.U02bI1ehOco

The Nova Terra Interregnum is also known as the time of twin Empires and lasted for nine centuries. The Ur-Council of Nova Terra dismissed the authority of the High Lords and claimed rule of the Segmentum Pacificus.[1] Eventually the civil conflict spread to the Adeptus Mechanicus, resulting in the Moirae Schism.[2] During the Cataclysm of Souls in 975.M35 the Ecclesiarchy tried to unite the Imperium as a religious state. Their efforts ended in massive religious wars against the Ur-Council in a civil war unseen since the Horus Heresy.[1][3] During the fighting, the Dark Angels made a daring attack upon Nova Terra upon suspecting that the mysterious Cypher was a member of the Ur-Council, though they failed to secure any prisoner.[3] Other major battles of the civil war included the Tellarite Rebellion.[4]

Later, during the Hrakon Campaign, the Dark Angels cornered the rebel leader Obidiah Hrakon, who had been a key supporter of Nova Terra.[3]

... indeed. They were heretics, and were purged. Business as usual in the IoM.

I forgot what we were talking about. Anyway back to Draigo he needs to pay me for that warp dust.