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@Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl: Yeah I agree with you

Sorry if it wasn´t clear...

Oh, ok, good!

da001 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
But they're loyalty cannot be questioned.

They are so fanatically loyal the Black Templars could probably take notes.

Loyalty to what?

They openly despise (and ocassionaly wage war against) the Imperium and their leaders. And it was the Emperor´s decission to grant all power to the High Lords of Terra, so they are not exactly following the Emperor´s orders.

They do what they thing they should do. That´s why they are rebels. Loyal is like the opposite of rebel.

They are loyal only to the Emperor himself and their primarchs, like all astartes originally were. The Astartes only came under the authority of the Council of Terra/High Lords of Terra after the Horus Heresy, and the SW had problems going along with that. Their loyalty to the Emperor is still undiminished.
You are also wrong in saying they wage war against the Imperium and its leaders. They have never had any beef with the High Lords and they have defended themselves (not waged war) against the Ecclessiarcy, which is only one institution of the Imperium and not its leader, and against an individual inquisitor and his retinue of Grey Knights, who were neither the whole Imperium nor its leaders.
Please tell me when according to you the SW waged war against the Imperium as a whole or against the High Lords of Terra.

Also, is the Emperor the person who granted the Council of Terra its authority? I thought it was Guilliman who did that, because the Emperor was already a vegetable.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
For example, philosophers have managed to determine several ways in which science can be distinguished from pseudo-science, which is actually a problem.

I thought scientists did that.

[…]
While the standards for determining whether a body of knowledge, methodology, or practice is scientific can vary from field to field, a number of basic principles are widely agreed upon by scientists.
[…]

Emphasis and ellipsis are mine. Really, I think scientists worked on that, rather than philosophers. Philosophers were busy with other stuff, like what is a good definition for freedom.

Defining the meaning of words and concepts is the work of philosophers, not scientists.
The philosophy of science is a very major part of both science and philosophy. You can't have proper science without philosophy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science

 Iron_Captain wrote:
They have never had any beef with the High Lords

You know that the Ecclesiarch and the Abbess are both High Lords, do you not ?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Defining the meaning of words and concepts is the work of philosophers, not scientists.

Defining the meaning of words, at least in French, is the job of the French Academy, which is afaik much more concerned with linguistic matters than philosophy.
As for defining concepts, you must be kidding. Most philosophers could not even understand the concepts introduced and manipulated daily by scientists without first spending years learning all the prerequisites, i.e. becoming scientists themselves.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
You can't have proper science without philosophy.

Then I must not be doing proper science, somehow.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
They have never had any beef with the High Lords

You know that the Ecclesiarch and the Abbess are both High Lords, do you not ?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Defining the meaning of words and concepts is the work of philosophers, not scientists.

Defining the meaning of words, at least in French, is the job of the French Academy, which is afaik much more concerned with linguistic matters than philosophy.
As for defining concepts, you must be kidding. Most philosophers could not even understand the concepts introduced and manipulated daily by scientists without first spending years learning all the prerequisites, i.e. becoming scientists themselves.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
You can't have proper science without philosophy.

Then I must not be doing proper science, somehow.

Isn't the Abbess missing?
Being attacked by someone and "having beef" are different things.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
They have never had any beef with the High Lords

You know that the Ecclesiarch and the Abbess are both High Lords, do you not ?

The Abess is missing and not a permanent High Lord. And did the Space Wolves fight directly against the Eccessiarch himself? And the Eccessiarch is all of the High Lords? The Space Wolves still did not fight against the High Lords. Afaik, they only defended themselves against agression by the Eccessiarchy, and it is their full right to do so, as the Ecclessarchy has no authorithy over the Space Marines.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Defining the meaning of words and concepts is the work of philosophers, not scientists.

Defining the meaning of words, at least in French, is the job of the French Academy, which is afaik much more concerned with linguistic matters than philosophy.
As for defining concepts, you must be kidding. Most philosophers could not even understand the concepts introduced and manipulated daily by scientists without first spending years learning all the prerequisites, i.e. becoming scientists themselves.

Linguistics is closely related to philosophy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_language Most philosophers are also linguists to a certain degree. You can't have philosophy without linguistics. To define a word, you need both philosophy and etymology.
You severely understimate philosophy here. There are people who dedicate their entire lives to the philosophy of science. Some philosophers understand more about science than most scientists do.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
You can't have proper science without philosophy.

Then I must not be doing proper science, somehow.

You are a scientist?
Without kidding, you are probably engaging in philosophy without realising it yourself.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Linguistics is closely related to philosophy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_languagec

Just as physics are related to philosophy …

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Most philosophers are also linguists to a certain degree. You can't have philosophy without linguistics.

I am not so sure this is also true the other way around, though.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
You severely understimate philosophy here.

Either that, or you overestimate it.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
You are a scientist?

I guess I will be when I finish my PhD .

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Without kidding, you are probably engaging in philosophy without realising it yourself.

Like Mr Jourdain.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

da001 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
But they're loyalty cannot be questioned.

They are so fanatically loyal the Black Templars could probably take notes.

Loyalty to what?

They openly despise (and ocassionaly wage war against) the Imperium and their leaders. And it was the Emperor´s decission to grant all power to the High Lords of Terra, so they are not exactly following the Emperor´s orders.

They do what they thing they should do. That´s why they are rebels. Loyal is like the opposite of rebel.

They are loyal only to the Emperor himself and their primarchs, like all astartes originally were. The Astartes only came under the authority of the Council of Terra/High Lords of Terra after the Horus Heresy, and the SW had problems going along with that. Their loyalty to the Emperor is still undiminished.
You are also wrong in saying they wage war against the Imperium and its leaders. They have never had any beef with the High Lords and they have defended themselves (not waged war) against the Ecclessiarcy, which is only one institution of the Imperium and not its leader, and against an individual inquisitor and his retinue of Grey Knights, who were neither the whole Imperium nor its leaders.
Please tell me when according to you the SW waged war against the Imperium as a whole or against the High Lords of Terra.

Also, is the Emperor the person who granted the Council of Terra its authority? I thought it was Guilliman who did that, because the Emperor was already a vegetable.

Nope
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Council_of_Terra

It was the Emperor after Ullanor. It was one of the reasons Horus turned: he was the militar leader, sent to the front to conquest the galaxy, but the power was left in the hands of mere humans. The people governing the Empire were to be humans. After what happened to the Thunder Warriors, the possibility that there were no place for them in times of peace triggered some reactions from some primarchs. Most of the problems came from the Imperial Tithe, that was decided in Terra by burocrats, not by Horus as Warmaster. Horus saw unstable or nearly conquered systems go full rebel because of this, yet his complains were ignored by the Emperor.

After the crusade Guilliman named himself a High Lord as Lord Commander of the Imperium, something it was pretty obvious the Emperor wouldn´t have approved, and started giving orders concerning everything. This almost triggered a second civil war, with Dorn as the most vocal of the opponents. Eventually they calm down and the time know as the Great Scouring began. Guilliman fought hard, silencing those who claim that the Ultras were doing nothing, and then he "died" at the hands of his brother, and that settled it.

It is told that the Emperor himself, who was not a vegetal, pronounced judgment on the rebels and established the government to be. This include the foundation of the Inquisition. The Emperor´s decay was progressive (yet fast), or at least that´s what we are told.

The Imperium is not run by Astartes. It is ruled by the High Lords of Terra. Waging war against them is waging war against the Imperium and defying the Emperor´s law. It is not supposed to happen among servants of the Emperor. The Abbess is one of them, like the Ecclesiarch. And it doesn´t matter that a given High Lord is missing at a given time, it is still rebellion. Waging war against the Ecclessiarchy and the Sisterhood is waging war against the Imperium. And they were not "defending themselves", they shot first and without warning. It is however acceptable, they are all quite beligerant factions and this micro-civil wars are normal.

The Months of Shame are a completely different matter. "An individual Inquisitor and his retinue of Grey Knights"? He was the Lord Inquisitor in undisputed command of all imperial forces during the First War of Armageddon, including many other Inquisitors. One of the biggest wars in recent Imperial history. And the Grey Knights are not a "retinue". They are an extremely small ultra-elite force that are used only in the direst situations. And they send 109 GK, no less.

That was total war with the Imperium. Two full worlds were destroyed! Any not first-founding chapter would have been branded heretic and destroyed for far less.

The Wolves are "loyal" to what they truly believe it is the best course of action for the Imperium. They think something is right and do it. But they are not loyal to the Imperium in any sense and they have a thing for disobeying direct orders of the Emperor "because they know better".

They are fierce, independent rebels. They take orders from no one. It is an important part of what they are. You cannot be a rebel and a loyal servant at the same time. You cannot defy authority and be a humble servant, all in one.

... the main problem being, especially in the case of the First War of Armageddon and the subsequent Months of Shame, what the Space Wolves believed to be right both was not and, further, was not the hill the Space Wolves should have chosen to die on. That battle, ultimately, was not worth fighting.

ntart.net/fs71/i/2011/095/9/a/blood_gifts_by_cristi_b-d3d9or3.jpg
A real rebel of the Imperium, both the sisters and the doggies hate each of other because each represent a different lie about the Imperium, the sisters represent the lie that the Emp wanted to be a God, the Wolves represent the lie that the Imperium was ever about mercy or honor.

The Sisters do not represent the idea that "the Emperor wanted to be a god". The Sisters have never, personally, met the man who was the Emperor, and did not come to exist until millennia after he ascended the Golden Throne.

What the Sisters *do* represent is that the Emperor *is* a god to the Imperium.

The sisters represent how far the Imperium has fallen, the idea that they could compare their saints to the primarchs shows this. The real hiers to the Imperium are the Legion of Chaos, their the only ones who remember, and the only ones who have any hope of holding off the menaces Mankind faces.

You do know that Sanguinius is a Saint, right? I would hazard to say that all the Loyalist Primarchs are considered Saints by the Ecclesiarchy. Space Marines, as the God-Emperor's own Angels of Death, show up in stained glass windows in cathedrals across the Imperium.

Chaos *is* Mankind's greatest foe. If the Chaos Marines still believe that they are somehow not pawns for the Primordial Malice, the Great Annihilator... then they're dumber than even the studio suggests they are.

The entire Word Bearers Legion is an arch-religious cult. There's no"truth" to what they remember, compared to what it seems you're suggesting the other Traitor Legions believe (and, of these, those that didn't have their Primarch killed *know* there are Gods of the Warp), and none of these people are even thinking about some Science-first, Enlightened society in line with the "Imperial Truth".

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
The sisters represent how far the Imperium has fallen, the idea that they could compare their saints to the primarchs shows this.

Why ? The Saints can not only compare to the primarch, but also come out of the comparison all the better ! None of the Saints fell to Chaos. And even when comparing to primarchs before the heresy, none of the Saints were psychopaths willing to frighten everyone to death, or berserkers wishing to gore everything that crossed his path.
Primarchs were actually quite bad.

You do know that Sanguinius is a Saint, right? I would hazard to say that all the Loyalist Primarchs are considered Saints by the Ecclesiarchy. Space Marines, as the God-Emperor's own Angels of Death, show up in stained glass windows in cathedrals across the Imperium.

I was refering to sister saints, I also think Sanguinius would be embarssed by what the Imperium has turned him into.

Ephrael Stern was last seen traveling with a mysterious Eldar known as the Pariah to the fabled and forbidden Black Library, using her abilities to access the vast conduits of the Eldar Webway. Though the Ordo Hereticus has issued orders for her destruction, some members of the Ordo secretly believe that she might represent humanity's greatest hope since the legendary Primarchs. Her current whereabouts remain unknown.

The Imperium is holding out for false hope. Pathetic.

Chaos *is* Mankind's greatest foe.

Based on what? Based on ramblings by the Eldar are just afraid they'll have their souls devored.

The entire Word Bearers Legion is an arch-religious cult. There's no"truth" to what they remember, compared to what it seems you're suggesting the other Traitor Legions believe (and, of these, those that didn't have their Primarch killed *know* there are Gods of the Warp), and none of these people are even thinking about some Science-first, Enlightened society in line with the "Imperial Truth".

I'm not suggesting that anyone follows the Imperial truth or that the Imperial Truth is even truth, i'm saying that the Imperium follows a lie.

Why ? The Saints can not only compare to the primarch, but also come out of the comparison all the better ! None of the Saints fell to Chaos. And even when comparing to primarchs before the heresy, none of the Saints were psychopaths willing to frighten everyone to death, or berserkers wishing to gore everything that crossed his path.

Then why can't the sisters tip over titans and hurl planes out of the air with their mind. Oh and as far morality goes the primarchs made better societies than the sisters. What sister made an empire of 500 worlds, or conquered thousands, discovered the the nuances of the warp, or killed or saved the emperor, I know your a fan of the sisters of canonically speaking their less significant than my lost and the damned army.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Then why can't the sisters tip over titans and hurl planes out of the air with their mind.

And what good is doing all that, if you have no no purpose ? Look at what happened to them. Does that look in any way glorious to you ?

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Oh and as far morality goes the primarchs made better societies than the sisters.

Yeah, sure, they did. Except for the fact that neither the primarchs nor the sisters actually made societies, except for a few exceptions like, well, the plague planet or Nostramo. Real good job, really ! Too bad Angron never did any society, it would have been gloriously moral. And it is not just the fallen one, Leman Russ would have instituted a nice society where the powerful over-eat, over-drink and feth all days while their poor thralls works to death to satisfy the huge food and booze requirement, how moral is that ?
As for Lorgar…

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
What sister made an empire of 500 worlds, or conquered thousands, discovered the the nuances of the warp, or killed or saved the emperor

Which sister let the Emperor be in a position of mortal danger ? None, they all protected Him and made sure no harm would come to Him. Which primarchs let the Emperor be in a position of mortal danger ? Well, all of them ! And the only one who tried to do something about it failed big time !
So, Sisters wins hands down.
Also Saint Sabbat.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I also think Sanguinius would be embarssed by what the Imperium has turned him into.

At least it's still in existence. And, really, the whole embracing religion and becoming a ruthless regime was justified in the face of what they're up against. Sanguinius, or another loyalist Primarch, might understand that, at least.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
The Imperium is holding out for false hope. Pathetic.

Hey now, you don't know that! Stern could well come back!

(We'll never actually find that out anyway, but we don't know that she won't).

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I know your a fan of the sisters of canonically speaking their less significant than my lost and the damned army.

I disagree. The Lost and Damned are certainly very cool and interesting, but they're less prominent than the Sisters. The Sisters played a role in reshaping the Imperium, they're the soldiers of the Imperium's own church and they're out there all the time fighting for the Imperium.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Also Saint Sabbat.

I thought that Sabbat wasn't a Sister?

Does that look in any way glorious to you ?

Well yea, i'd much rather follow a loyalist or traitor primarch and than the sisters.

Look at what happened to them.

They either died fighting for what they believed in or were granted immorality. The Church of emp spend their times extorting money with the sisters as their leg breaker inforcers, when they fight an enemy capable of fighting back they usually spend the remainder of their lives begging for mercy that they never granted to their foes and for help from an emperor whose who already died.

tried to do something about it failed big time !

Sanguinus did more the Imperium than anyone, despite rooting for chaos I tip my hat to the greatest follower of the Emperor that ever lived.

So, Sisters wins hands down.

Is that a joke?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I disagree. The Lost and Damned are certainly very cool and interesting, but they're less prominent than the Sisters. The Sisters played a role in reshaping the Imperium, they're the soldiers of the Imperium's own church and they're out there all the time fighting for the Imperium.

Their a branch of the secret police much like the arbites, well armed, Also the fact that their so much fluff about sisters getting captured and tortured by authors who should see psychiatrist, rarely here about arbites being taken prisoner. Matt Ward has wrecked you army and i'm sorry, but that does change the fact that its wrecked.

Saint Basilica the Eldar was a saint. Course, turned out that he actually was a saint... for Chaos.

That said, the loyalist primarchs are all de-facto saints according to Lexicanum, although it doesn't cite a source. Hard to imagine them not being so, though.

Saint is just a term given to someone by the Ecclesiarchy anyways. Given that the Ecclesiarchs are human, they aren't perfect and sometimes make mistakes (such as Basilica). The primarchs, too, made mistakes. I'm not really sure why the sisters are a sign of how far the Imperium's fallen. Pretty much EVERYONE makes mistakes in the fluff, Emperor and Chaos Gods included.

...but really, as grim dark as 40k is, I'm pretty sure the fluff has only included the ecclesiarchy as an example of many of the grimdark, not the cause (or in some cases, not the ONLY cause), and unlike many other grim dark aspects of 40k, the ecclesiarchy can at least argue it's a necessary evil (and on a good day, argue that it's the truth if Emps really is a god).

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
The Church of emp spend their times extorting money with the sisters as their leg breaker inforcers, when they fight an enemy capable of fighting back they usually spend the remainder of their lives begging for mercy that they never granted to their foes and for help from an emperor whose who already died.

That's... An extremely one-sided view of the Ecclesiarchy. Yes, they are very brutal and ultimately uncaring about the common man. Guess what? So is every other Imperial organisation. The Inquisition, Administratum, Imperial Guard, Mechanicus wouldn't really have any qualms about abusing people either. If you're going to criticise the Ecclesiarchy for that, you should criticise the Imperium as a whole too.

While brutal, the Ecclesiarchy is good for the Imperium overall, current situation considered. Without a unifying faith and vigilance for heretics, Chaos would easily seep in and ruin everything. And an Imperium full of dogma is better than a dead Imperium, really.

My arguement is not with you trioke its this HYBRID SON.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Their a branch of the secret police much like the arbites, well armed,

Ironclad, I'm confused. At first I thought we were talking about the Legion of the Damned, the Astartes who come out the warp to save Imperials. Then I realised that I'd mixed their name up with the traitor IG. But now you're saying they're a branch of the secret police?

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Also the fact that their so much fluff about sisters getting captured and tortured by authors who should see psychiatrist, rarely here about arbites being taken prisoner. Matt Ward has wrecked you army and i'm sorry, but that does change the fact that its wrecked.

This is a common misconception, bud. Overall, the Sisters get treated okay in the fluff. They're not actually slaughtered constantly as the popular notion goes, it's jsut that the Bloodtide and other stuff similar to it was discussed more than the less-known fluff where the SoB hold thier own.

And, as for Ward, cite me one story other than the Bloodtide where he has "wrecked" them. Meanwhile, I can cite all of the 5E SoB codex as an example where he portrayed them well. I don't blame you for thinking this, though. I used to think it too.

Ironclad, I'm confused. At first I thought we were talking about the Legion of the Damned, the Astartes who come out the warp to save Imperials. Then I realised that I'd mixed their name up with the traitor IG. But now you're saying they're a branch of the secret police?

Lost and the Damned the mortal followers of Chaos comprised of cultist, traitor gaurd, mutants,, and those born in the eye of terror or mealstrom.

I''m saying that the sister are more police than military, that why they often lose when facing a military target.

They're not actually slaughtered constantly as the popular notion goes, it's jsut that the Bloodtide and other stuff similar to it was discussed more than the

In execution hour they mention one who was declared a saint after being gang raped and killed by a group of cultist.

In Dark Creed the word bearers captain sabtec mentions taking a large group of sisters prisoner, ritually "defiling their flesh" and them leaving bound in a swamp crying fo mercy and flood sucking insects eat them alive.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I''m saying that the sister are more police than military, that why they often lose when facing a military target.

Actually, they're both police and military. They perform policing duties for and on the Ecclesiarchy, and they fight in wars of faith and train as soldiers.

And they certainly don't often lose when facing a military target! Let's see, from what I can recall:

- They successfully held off four Marine Chapters and some Tech Guard in a siege, until they ended the siege by killing Vandire.
- They've fought off a Red Corsairs invasion on their own
- Beaten an Ork attack despite suffering significant losses previously
- And just recently in the Scions codex, they (with assistance from the Scions) purge some Daemons who were invading a shrine world.

And those are just specific examples. Their codex also talks about them regularly fighting battles/wars, and refers to them as elite warriors trained to the peak of human ability. And that's not just their own codex bigging them up, they come from the same place as the Stormtroopers, the fluff as a whole regards them as elites.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Well yea, i'd much rather follow a loyalist or traitor primarch and than the sisters.

Speaks only about your bias. And since you would rather follow Lorgar than Sisters, I think it means you are either afraid of cooties, or are like a child on a power trip. Primarchs are physically strong, they must therefore be awesome, no ? That is how a lot of young boy thinks.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
They either died fighting for what they believed in or were granted immorality.

They either died ruins of what they once were, their legions broken and their power stripped from them, or became twisted, pitiful parodies of what they once were. Not to mention getting tattooed on their inner organs.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
The Church of emp spend their times extorting money with the sisters as their leg breaker inforcers, when they fight an enemy capable of fighting back they usually spend the remainder of their lives begging for mercy that they never granted to their foes and for help from an emperor whose who already died.

We get it, you do not like the Ecclesiarchy. No need to rape canon like that, though .

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Is that a joke?

No, it is not !

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Their a branch of the secret police much like the arbites

So, uh, do we need to take anything you say seriously after such blatant contradiction to the established fluff ? There is nothing, nothing secret about neither the Sisters nor the Arbites.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Well yea, i'd much rather follow a loyalist or traitor primarch and than the sisters.

Speaks only about your bias. And since you would rather follow Lorgar than Sisters, I think it means you are either afraid of cooties, or are like a child on a power trip. Primarchs are physically strong, they must therefore be awesome, no ? That is how a lot of young boy thinks.

Ever heard of hypocrisy?
You yourself are extremely biased.

And now this thread has gone off-topic.

Space wolves do take orders, and they do answer the call of duty. But only when they feel like it..
Which is always! what space wolf doesn't wanna fight?

I''m saying that the sister are more police than military, that why they often lose when facing a military target.

Uh.... no. They're the go-to unit the Imperium has for purging Space Marine Chapters. They do this rather well. This is, in fact, how they were first introduced to the setting.

Speaks only about your bias. And since you would rather follow Lorgar than Sisters, I think it means you are either afraid of cooties, or are like a child on a power trip. Primarchs are physically strong, they must therefore be awesome, no ? That is how a lot of young boy thinks.

Now we have it, how these conversations always end, its either because i'm afraid of girls, can't get any, or am gay.

People weep before primarchs, they welded psychic powers and the demon primarchs can destroy planets with their f@cking MINDS. Its not just threir physical power, but mental and charisma, primarchs led their armies from one triumph to another, in 200 years they conquered half the galaxy, in 10,000 the Imperium with the Sisters Guard, and Marines can barely hold it together. If Lorgar had got his way humanity would be colonizing other galaxies so yes i'd rather follow him than a religion that Lorgar himself created and then admitted was wrong.

go-to unit the Imperium has for purging Space Marine Chapters.

No they go to the Grey Knights, the Minotaurs, and the Red Hunters.

Probably not the Grey Knights