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Because they are fictional Vikings in a fictional setting, so they have to super-Viking the Space Vikings... even though Vikings didn't really do this kind of thing.

 Psienesis wrote:
so they have to super-Viking the Space Vikings...

Reminds me of that time Garth Ennis got a viking god be over-vikinged by some regular vikings turned undead.
But where are the raiding and plundering?



The space wolves are not that much viking as they are wolf-themed mary sue. Their look does not relate them to viking, the name they give to their wargear and units is all about wolves rather than viking, their tactics are not in any way related to viking tactics, and even worse, they go around all fun and goodness, getting drunk and cracking joke while they protect civilians and curb stomp the bad guys, totally out of place in the grimdark universe. How is protecting civilians viking-themed ?

Space Vikings would be better for chaos.

They used to be Viking-ish. Lukas the Trickster is from a time when their Norse-ish inspiration was more clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Space Vikings would be better for chaos.

Chaos planned for them to turn but Magnus ended up preventing that by submitting to their punishment (at first), IIRC.

Real life likely prevented chaos Vikings via GW decision in WH40k because WH Fantasy already has Chaos Vikings

TiamatRoar wrote:
Real life likely prevented chaos Vikings via GW decision in WH40k because WH Fantasy already has Chaos Vikings

Well, it did not prevent necrons to become “tomb kings… in space”, did it ?

Well, Necrons kinda were Tomb Kings in Space before Tomb Kings were anything other than two special characters in Warhammer Armies: Undead, so...

Necrons and Tomb Kings are similar culturally-wise but they sure as hell aren't similar biologically-wise and in many aesthetic ways. There's a huge difference between "robot" and "undead mummy".

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas is part of the highest Imperial authority. She is a High Lord of Terra. There is literally no higher authority vested in any single person, and the only thing that can overturn her decisions is a vote by the other eleven High Lords (although it only has to be a clear majority, not unanimous against her).

As if that wasn't enough, the Adepta Sororitas is mandated to seek out heresy throughout the Imperium, including non-approved cults such as the one that was rumoured to have taken root on Fenris. In the pursuit of these duties, they are of rank with an Inquisitor.

So really, when it comes to the Ecclesiarchy "assault" on Fenris, the Space Wolves really were completely in the wrong and just throwing their abhuman bulk around like five year old bullies with a dirty secret.

True, but not entirely. The Abbess is not a permanent member of the High Lords. 9 High Lords always remain the same, the 3 remaining positions are rotated by a number of other powerful individuals. The Abbess is one of them, so she may be on the HLoT, but not always. Also, iirc, hasn't the Abbess been missing for centuries?
And the Adepta Sororitas may be mandated to seek out heresy, they are so mandated by the Ecclessiarchy and the Ecclessiarchy still holds no official authority over the Astartes (altough the SoB can also be employed by the Ordo Hereticus which does have authority over the Astartes). The Astartes only answer to the HLoT and the Emperor (and the SW refuse to answer to anyone but the Emperor). So no, only if they have been enlisted by an Inquisitor do the SoB have Inquisitorial authority, otherwise they are just the military arm of the Ecclessiarchy. And of course they can never be of rank with an Inquisitor. No one except another Inquisitor is ever of equal rank to an Inquisitor. The SoB and even the High Lords are subject to Inquisitorial authority and scrutiny like all other Imperial organisations.

 Psienesis wrote:

jhe90 wrote:
Even if they are hiding who can pull rank on a first founding chapter home world full of vichous preadetors clasafied as a death world that can convinently explain them going missing say attacked by a wolf, or one of the many creatures that can kill you.

Far as I belive and read a chapter master is uncontested lord of planets they rule, bar the likes of inquisition or highest impirial authority. Very few can pull rank on them.

If the Space Wolves have nothing to hide... why hide it?

Because the SW do in fact have something to hide. They worship the native Fenrisian gods.

Pretty sure they dont....

Then why don't they let the Ecclesiarchy, which does all kinds of work with native people in adopting whatever pagan thing they practice into the Imperial Creed, investigate the rumors?

Instead, they fired on their vessels. This *really* looks like the behavior of "something to hide".

 Psienesis wrote:
Then why don't they let the Ecclesiarchy, which does all kinds of work with native people in adopting whatever pagan thing they practice into the Imperial Creed, investigate the rumors?

Instead, they fired on their vessels. This *really* looks like the behavior of "something to hide".

Reminds me of the Sons of Malice, except they certainly didn't have the clout.

Looking at fluff, they may have issue with impirial church as they kind of had a mad cardinal besige them for 3 years, deaths of millions of natives of there world.

That would not help your relationship even if he was not acting under his branch but as a lone leader.

That Mad Cardinal might have been right in beseiging Fenris, though, if the natives have started some kind of non-Emperor worship of tree-spirits or something.

ETA: The answer, of course, being "because Space Wolves". They're a favorite faction of the studio, and so are allowed to get away with just about everything. The whole First-Founding thing doesn't hold a whole lot of water with me, considering that half the First Founding Legions turned traitor, so their pedigree is not particularly impressive. I also don't have a problem with the Space Wolves being Space Vikings... but what I do have an issue with is the Space Wolves being Space Vikings without any actual repercussions.

jhe90 wrote:
Looking at fluff, they may have issue with impirial church as they kind of had a mad cardinal besige them for 3 years, deaths of millions of natives of there world.

That would not help your relationship even if he was not acting under his branch but as a lone leader.

And,apart from the chaplain equivalents who get recruits, the Wolves don't even interact with the natives of Fenris, so this doesn't hold a lot of water fo rme.

Well, with the wolf analogy, the SW consider Fenris their territory and refuse to let anyone else do anything with it.

Also, their Primarch and the All-Father would both be opposed t the Eclesiarchy, so they are too.


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And finally, you don't show up with multiple orders of the Sisters of BATTLE just to look around. the Wolves are not stupid enough to let an army land on their planet and then find out what it really wants.

Jefffar wrote:
Well, with the wolf analogy, the SW consider Fenris their territory and refuse to let anyone else do anything with it.

Also, their Primarch and the All-Father would both be opposed t the Eclesiarchy, so they are too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And finally, you don't show up with multiple orders of the Sisters of BATTLE just to look around. the Wolves are not stupid enough to let an army land on their planet and then find out what it really wants.

Afraid your facts are a bit incomplete.

The timeline is like this:

1 Ecclisarchy ship is sent to Fenris to investigate pagan worship
Space Wolves fire on it
Then the Sisters show up

Sooooyeah. They opened up first in this fight.

Jefffar wrote:
Also, their Primarch and the All-Father would both be opposed t the Eclesiarchy, so they are too.

The Emperor did not seem to want the Ecclesiarchy disbanded last time someone saw Him. Did I mention that this last time was when Alicia Dominica and her followers entered the Throne room, and that they came out of it entirely changed, yet still faithful ?
As for Russ, who cares about him anyway ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Also, their Primarch and the All-Father would both be opposed t the Eclesiarchy, so they are too.

The Emperor did not seem to want the Ecclesiarchy disbanded last time someone saw Him. Did I mention that this last time was when Alicia Dominica and her followers entered the Throne room, and that they came out of it entirely changed, yet still faithful ?
As for Russ, who cares about him anyway ?

I don't think the Emperor really is in the position to disband the Ecclessiarchy. He is a rotten corpse on a failing live support system that keeps his soul going. I am pretty sure he isn't even capable of speaking anymore. The Emperor was a highly militant atheist by life. If he were still capable of doing so, he would likely have disbanded the Ecclessiarchy immediately, or even more likely, he would never have allowed the Ecclessiarchy to come into existence in the first place.
Also, your comment about the Emperor's son would have gotten you executed for heresy in 40k. To the Imperial population, the (loyalist) primarchs are extremely important. To suggest nobody cares about a primarch is highly ignorant.

The Space Wolves are allowed their defiant nature for 2 main reasons.
1. They are very effective and loyal warriors, to take action against them would only weaken the Imperium.
2. The Space Wolves, being one of the original Space Marine Legions that fought alongside the Emperor himself in the Great Crusade and remained loyal in the Heresy, have a lot of political clout and religious significance.
Notice that other First Founding chapters, like the Iron Hands and especially the Dark Angels also get away with things that would have gotten anyone else punished or excommunicated.

They may not be like salamanders but that's just taken a bite out of pool you draw your future marines from. Not like its enormous like ultramarines pool to draw from. Even a small bite is a threat to chapters future supply of recruits.

Though even with multiple orders, the fang is one of strongest fortress built. 3 years + millions if traityor guard could not break it.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I don't think the Emperor really is in the position to disband the Ecclessiarchy.

Well, He is a god, their god, so I think he could.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
He is a rotten corpse on a failing live support system that keeps his soul going. I am pretty sure he isn't even capable of speaking anymore.

Not sure how seeing what would just be a rotten corpse on failing live support system would turn Alicia Dominica from fiercely loyal to Vandire, even after hours of discussion with a goddamn Custodes, to accusing Vandire of committing the ultimate heresy.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Emperor was a highly militant atheist by life.

Maybe something made Him change His mind. I have absolutely no idea what that could be, apart from maybe a civil war against his most trusted minions, and internment for eternity in the Golden Throne.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
To the Imperial population, the (loyalist) primarchs are extremely important.

Maybe on Fenris. For the rest of the world, Sanguinius is usually worshiped. Leman Russ, on the other hand…, well, for most people, it is the name of some noisy, smelly tank, rather than the name of some noisy, smelly primarch.

The Emperor speaks to people fairly frequently for a corpse in a chair. He's not unaware of what's going on in the Imperium.

The militant-atheist thing is relatively new. Lastly, and I've said this before:

People worshipped him as a god while he was still walking around. He didn't seem to have much desire to stop them.

The Emperor damn well knew this was going on. On Terra alone there were *billions* of people in the cults that would later gel into the Temple of the Savior Emperor.

It is highly, *highly* unlikely that the Emperor would put a stop to the Ecclesiarchy. It is, after all, probably feeding him an unimaginable amount of power in the Warp.

In body a corpse rigged up to ultra advanced life support. However worshiped and guarded

In mind he was most powerful humanish ever in terms of powers. Not a god, indestructible but still immortal.
A power like that does not just go away, he can comuncate to a limited degree to his empire, but not in as simple or direct forms as pre whole Horus nigh killing him.

Yea, Emps is probably still active. Even the Cadian Blood novel shows that the Emperor's Tarot is still clearly working. A librarian and a sanctioned psyker, before contacting and interacting with each other, both came to the same (and correct) conclusion via it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Maybe on Fenris. For the rest of the world, Sanguinius is usually worshiped. Leman Russ, on the other hand…, well, for most people, it is the name of some noisy, smelly tank, rather than the name of some noisy, smelly primarch.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure much of the Imperium is well-aware of WHY that "noisy smelly tank" is named "Leman Russ".

(to spell things out for you, it was named in honor of the primarch, so yes, Leman Russ is a pretty big deal to the Imperium if one of their most common tanks is named after him)

The Dante munitorium warlords book specifically mentions Logan as "perhaps the most beloved by the people of the Imperium", too. Logan was chosen as the overall leader of the Imperium's forces during the 13th Black Crusade (the biggest mobilization of Imperium forces since the Horus Heresy. IE, NO other Chapter master in the entire history of the Imperium can claim they were placed in charge of as big an Imperial force as Logan). Bjorn was reknown enough that even the Inquisitor that was against the Space Wolves after the First War for Armegeddon kneeled in reverence in his presence.

One can argue whether or not the Space Wolves can get away with whatever, but regardless of if they should or not, it's canon that they're very well-regarded amongst the Imperium people (and that's an understatement).

...although in my opinion, if I were an inquisitor or High Lord in a situation where Logan was the most beloved chapter master in the entire Imperium, I'd be scared shitless of the mere thought of declaring them heretics unless there was indisputable proof that they were corrupted by Chaos itself, which for all their rambunctious behavior they're obviously not. Shot at some ecclesiarchy ships? Got in a spat with the Inquisition where several Inquisitors actually agreed with the wolves? Disobeyed a few orders because they thought those orders were stupid? Hey, as long as I don't see tentacles popping out of your eyes, then go ahead (although I'd verbally grumble about it a lot). The benefits of declaring "the most beloved" chapter master a heretic would have to outweigh the riots and loss of morale that would come about by such a move (not to mention making enemies of the wolves and losing one of the Imperium's most active long serving chapters)

TiamatRoar wrote:
(to spell things out for you, it was named in honor of the primarch, so yes, Leman Russ is a pretty big deal to the Imperium if one of their most common tanks is named after him)

Mr Rhino and Miss Chimera are really popular then .

TiamatRoar wrote:
the 13th Black Crusade (the biggest mobilization of Imperium forces since the Horus Heresy

. Really ?

TiamatRoar wrote:
IE, NO other Chapter master in the entire history of the Imperium can claim they were placed in charge of as big an Imperial force as Logan

Does Macharius crusade not completely overshadow it still ?
Because yeah, chapter masters, big deal !

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
(to spell things out for you, it was named in honor of the primarch, so yes, Leman Russ is a pretty big deal to the Imperium if one of their most common tanks is named after him)

Mr Rhino and Miss Chimera are really popular then

... also, Leman Russ used to be an IA General, not a Primarch, which is why the tank is named as it is. Then Russ became a Primarch, so the story changed.

The Wolves are an extremely popular Chapter throughout the Imperium. That doesn't really mean anything at the end of the day, though.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Or, alternatively, is as much a well known concept to Imperial citizens as rhinos and the concept of chimera are to normal people in present day 2014 AD.

Chimera are not familiar to normal peoples .
I do not think Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque is famous to most people. Actually, I had to use Wikipedia to learn who he was. And that is in a way less obscurantist setting than 40k, where people cannot simply search for biographies of Primarchs on Wikipedia

TiamatRoar wrote:
That said, that force was bigger than Macharius's

I have a hard time believing it.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Thinking about it, that's because Macharius CONQUERED the most, not "was put in charge of the most", like Logan was. It's kinda apples and oranges (Logan's job wasn't to conquer but to defend)

Still does not look right.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Chimera are not familiar to normal peoples .
I do not think Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque is famous to most people. Actually, I had to use Wikipedia to learn who he was. And that is in a way less obscurantist setting than 40k, where people cannot simply search for biographies of Primarchs on Wikipedia

They aren't? Maybe it's because I'm into anime or something but I'm pretty sure any Japanese person knows of the concept given that Chimera are a normal enemy in Final Fantasy, a big plot point in Full Metal Alchemist and Touhou and many other things. Though they turn up in many non-Asian myths (hells, the origin of the word is non-Asian) as well, obviously. I'd think Chimera is only slightly less well-known a concept/word than wyvern, minotaur, or for the Imperium, Malcador or Macharius (which are also tanks)

I have a hard time believing it.

The 13th Black Crusade explicitly caused the largest mobilization of Imperium forces since the Horus Heresy. Given that the Malcharian Crusade happened after the Heresy but before the 13th Black Crusade, that means it was larger than the forces mobilized for Macharius's crusade.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Maybe it's because I'm into anime or something but I'm pretty sure any Japanese person knows of the concept given that Chimera are a normal enemy in Final Fantasy, a big plot point in Full Metal Alchemist and Touhou and many other things.

I am sorry, but Geeky McNerd is not Average Joe .
Seriously, though, they are not.

TiamatRoar wrote:
I'd think Chimera is only slightly less well-known a concept/word than wyvern, minotaur

Might surprise you, but wyvern are also totally not familiar to normal people. Of course, we are all Geeky McNerd around here, but go ask Average Joe if you can burrow his wyvern for a ride, you will see. I mean, Firefox is even highlighting the word as a spelling mistake !

TiamatRoar wrote:
The 13th Black Crusade explicitly caused the largest mobilization of Imperium forces since the Horus Heresy.

Yeah. That is what I have trouble believing. I mean, it all happened on a quite small system and all. Nothing went out of it. How could it have been that big ?

TiamatRoar wrote:
So either Leman Russ is famous for having a tank named after him, or Leman Russ is just known as a "smelly noisy tank" (but in that case, going by your logic, SO ARE MACHARIUS AND MALCADOR)

I have not read any of the Horus Heresy books, but I have never heard of any reference to Malcador in any piece of fluff I have read first-hand. So, as far as I am concerned, he may as well be completely forgotten by everyone in the Imperium. Might be wrong though.
As for Macharius, well… not only are Macharius tanks way bigger and better and rarer than Leman Russ tanks, not only are they superior in basically every regard, but the fact that Macharius is famous is not denied by the fact one tank was named after him ! I was just saying having a tank named after you does not necessarily meant you were famous, I did not pretend that having a tank named after you when you are already famous suddenly make everyone forget about you !
Also, Macharius are better than Leman Russes .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Maybe it's because I'm into anime or something but I'm pretty sure any Japanese person knows of the concept given that Chimera are a normal enemy in Final Fantasy, a big plot point in Full Metal Alchemist and Touhou and many other things.

I am sorry, but Geeky McNerd is not Average Joe .
Seriously, though, they are not.

TiamatRoar wrote:
I'd think Chimera is only slightly less well-known a concept/word than wyvern, minotaur

Might surprise you, but wyvern are also totally not familiar to normal people. Of course, we are all Geeky McNerd around here, but go ask Average Joe if you can burrow his wyvern for a ride, you will see. I mean, Firefox is even highlighting the word as a spelling mistake !

TiamatRoar wrote:
The 13th Black Crusade explicitly caused the largest mobilization of Imperium forces since the Horus Heresy.

Yeah. That is what I have trouble believing. I mean, it all happened on a quite small system and all. Nothing went out of it. How could it have been that big ?

TiamatRoar wrote:
So either Leman Russ is famous for having a tank named after him, or Leman Russ is just known as a "smelly noisy tank" (but in that case, going by your logic, SO ARE MACHARIUS AND MALCADOR)

I have not read any of the Horus Heresy books, but I have never heard of any reference to Malcador in any piece of fluff I have read first-hand. So, as far as I am concerned, he may as well be completely forgotten by everyone in the Imperium. Might be wrong though.
As for Macharius, well… not only are Macharius tanks way bigger and better and rarer than Leman Russ tanks, not only are they superior in basically every regard, but the fact that Macharius is famous is not denied by the fact one tank was named after him ! I was just saying having a tank named after you does not necessarily meant you were famous, I did not pretend that having a tank named after you when you are already famous suddenly make everyone forget about you !
Also, Macharius are better than Leman Russes .

Your own ignorance about the fluff is not a valid argument that Leman Russ isn't famous despite having a tank named after him. Malcador the Sigilite was dubbed by the Emperor himself to be known as "Malcador the Hero" throughout all of the Imperium. Can you drop this line of argument finally because it's getting absolutely ridiculous at this point. Logan was explicitly stated in Dante's book to be the most beloved chapter master, Bjorn has Inquisitors kneeling in reverence to him, Leman Russ has a tank named after him, and yet so many people insist on coming up with silly arguments that the Space Wolves and their Primarchs aren't famous throughout the Imperium with these ridiculous alternate explanations "Oh BL isn't canon" "Oh they probably just think of it as a smelly tank" and other ludicridocities when GAMES WORKSHOP CLEARLY DISAGREES, given the statements in Dante's booklet and Logan being made head of the defenses against the 13th Black Crusade and everything else.

Regardless of your own logic and reasoning behind why you think all other indicators are that the Space Wolves shouldn't be known and famous, GW has made it explicit that they ARE.