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 Furyou Miko wrote:
There was an entire branch of the Inquisition specifically ordained to hunt out corruption within the Ecclesiarchy - the Ordo Hereticus.

pm731 - here's a hypothetical situation. You realise that a man has to die. You decide to hire a contract killer, who terminates that man. Who is responsible for that man's death? If you had not hired the contract killer, he would not have died. The literal blood is on your contractor's hands, but where does the figurative blood lie?

Both. I ordered it but they chose to do it as well.


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 Furyou Miko wrote:
There was an entire branch of the Inquisition specifically ordained to hunt out corruption within the Ecclesiarchy - the Ordo Hereticus.

pm731 - here's a hypothetical situation. You realise that a man has to die. You decide to hire a contract killer, who terminates that man. Who is responsible for that man's death? If you had not hired the contract killer, he would not have died. The literal blood is on your contractor's hands, but where does the figurative blood lie?

Both. I ordered it but they chose to do it as well.

So, by your own admission, ordering something to be done is the same as doing it yourself from a moral standpoint.

Your food is exactly the same. You buy the meat, therefore you are purchasing the services of the slaughterer who killed it and the butcher who prepared it (or the farmer who harvested it, for smart-arse vegetarians. Non smart-arse vegetarians don't need it explaining).

 Furyou Miko wrote:
or the farmer who harvested it, for smart-arse vegetarians.

What about smart-ass vegetarian who only eat fruits (and possibly other part of the plant that does not require to kill it) ? There are some in India that do that for religious reasons, IIRC.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
[
What about smart-ass vegetarian who only eat fruits (and possibly other part of the plant that does not require to kill it) ? There are some in India that do that for religious reasons, IIRC.

I have no defence against them, for they are the ultimate masters of snark, and I am merely British.

I'm really not sure. From what I recall, they were just killing off the adult tribespeople (at least some of whom had come to the Imperials seeking shelter and were being co-operative), presumably in some effort to exert control over the world. As opposed to, you know, just doing the usual stuff with missionaries and the steady uplifting of the people. Honestly, the Cardinal in the book was like a bit like a cartoon villain.

They did it because they wanted to make money and attract investment to the planet. It was about money.

would have killed Space Wolves as soon as he heard that they ignored orders from an organization he set up when the Space Wolves stopped obeying his imperium.

No because the wolves would have followed his orders. Thats the problem with the Wolves they followed the Emperor but not his ideals.

who the Sisters should have easily outclassed

I suppose the sisters were just to use to gunning down civilians. Keep in mind these were elite guard.

Ecclesiarchy was more misrepresented than the Sisters in this particular book

The witch hunters codex paints a pretty bleak view of the sisters. Despite their derision have have huge compassion for those who play the sisters, to devote yourself to an army that games workshop never really cared about takes a certain amount of commitment.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
They did it because they wanted to make money and attract investment to the planet. It was about money.

Ah, okay. Yeah, I think I recall that, now that you mention it. But getting back to my original point, of course they're some corrupt people in the Ecclesiarchy, but I still think that they do far, far more good than harm for the Imperium.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I suppose the sisters were just to use to gunning down civilians. Keep in mind these were elite guard.

Being set against lesser foes isn't going to just erase the previous experience of fighting deadlier ones. They're still elite soldiers. One of these Sisters was a Palatine, even. Also, the Sisters are more elite than the guard's elite, since they get some of the best training in the Imperium from an early age, being trained by both the Schola and the Orders Militant. And, finally, the Sisters have the edge in terms of both arms and armour. So yeah, I'm going to maintain my respectful disagreement with the particular segment in that book.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
So, by your own admission, ordering something to be done is the same as doing it yourself from a moral standpoint.

Your food is exactly the same. You buy the meat, therefore you are purchasing the services of the slaughterer who killed it and the butcher who prepared it (or the farmer who harvested it, for smart-arse vegetarians. Non smart-arse vegetarians don't need it explaining).

No you share responsibility. Morally I think ordering the death of a human and causing one are different things.

Food is not the same as killing a human being.

That would imply the Tyranids are morally pure. Orks, too, for that matter, as they are known to eat people sometimes.

pm713 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
So, by your own admission, ordering something to be done is the same as doing it yourself from a moral standpoint.

Your food is exactly the same. You buy the meat, therefore you are purchasing the services of the slaughterer who killed it and the butcher who prepared it (or the farmer who harvested it, for smart-arse vegetarians. Non smart-arse vegetarians don't need it explaining).

No you share responsibility. Morally I think ordering the death of a human and causing one are different things.

Food is not the same as killing a human being.

Why? What's so special about humans?

Killing a human is no different to killing a pig. Morally reprehensible unless you plan to make use of its body, or if the death of the individual will benefit the vast majority of other creatures on the planet.

The difference is that there are morally acceptable uses for a pig's body, whereas eating the human will just give you prion diseases.

Note: I am not a vegetarian. I am not saying that it is wrong to kill and eat animals. I am just saying that it's only wrong to kill humans because you can't make use of the carcass.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I am just saying that it's only wrong to kill humans because you can't make use of the carcass.

You are talking non-sense. Of course there are obvious way to use the corpse. It is called medical research. Yet still nobody would call it moral.
As for eating humans giving you prion… are you aware that humans, unlike cows, are omnivorous and therefore able to process meat ?

If you believe it is okay to kill someone just because you can make use of the corpse, then good for you, but it certainly is not the opinion of the vast majority of peoples.

Just 'cause https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmK0bZl4ILM

Not sure what any of this has to do with Space Wolves though.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
So, by your own admission, ordering something to be done is the same as doing it yourself from a moral standpoint.

Your food is exactly the same. You buy the meat, therefore you are purchasing the services of the slaughterer who killed it and the butcher who prepared it (or the farmer who harvested it, for smart-arse vegetarians. Non smart-arse vegetarians don't need it explaining).

No you share responsibility. Morally I think ordering the death of a human and causing one are different things.

Food is not the same as killing a human being.

Why? What's so special about humans?

Killing a human is no different to killing a pig. Morally reprehensible unless you plan to make use of its body, or if the death of the individual will benefit the vast majority of other creatures on the planet.

The difference is that there are morally acceptable uses for a pig's body, whereas eating the human will just give you prion diseases.

Humans aren't food so there's no reason to kill them unless you have a personal issue. The main reason I haven't killed someone is the fact is that it's illegal to be honest.

Note: I am not a vegetarian. I am not saying that it is wrong to kill and eat animals. I am just saying that it's only wrong to kill humans because you can't make use of the carcass.

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 Psienesis wrote:
That would imply the Tyranids are morally pure. Orks, too, for that matter, as they are known to eat people sometimes.

Pretty sure neither of those have morals.

Of course Orks have morals, they are just rather different from ours. It's proppa (moral) to whack a grot on the head, for example, but not proppa (immoral) to be a weedy grot yourself.

Pretty sure neither of those have morals

Neither does the Imperium, not by what we, people of 21st century Earth who, more or less, live in liberal democracies, would call morals.

Their morals are as follows:

Kill the Mutant.
Burn the Heretic.
Purge the Unclean.

Anyone who isn't down with that is immoral, because this is what the God-Emperor has commanded, and it is this that everyone must do.

 Psienesis wrote:

Pretty sure neither of those have morals

Neither does the Imperium, not by what we, people of 21st century Earth who, more or less, live in liberal democracies, would call morals.

Their morals are as follows:

Kill the Mutant.
Burn the Heretic.
Purge the Unclean.

Anyone who isn't down with that is immoral, because this is what the God-Emperor has commanded, and it is this that everyone must do.

They do have morals. You know like not killing every 3rd person you see.

Their moral aren't that different from contemporary morals with the exception that their is no innocence.


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And, finally, the Sisters have the edge in terms of both arms and armour.

The Guards greatest strength superior numbers, also add in the fact that they have Chaos on their side with guys who have demon blood pumped into them and have grown claws.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
The Guards greatest strength superior numbers, also add in the fact that they have Chaos on their side with guys who have demon blood pumped into them and have grown claws.

Huh, okay, I've just read over Flesh and Iron again to see how it actually went, and it doesn't actually portray the Sisters all that badly at all. Notably, it's a melee-only fight. The traitor guard/mutated tribesmen do have a lot more in terms of numbers, but the Sisters still hold their own well. Two Chaos Marines join the fray and the Sisters endure, even. And at the battle's end, the traitors are driven off when more loyalist guard arrive, and the Palatine is killed by a tribesman detonating something while the remaining Sisters presumably go down with the sinking ship they were on.

So, Ironclad, you're actually right about weight of numbers being the edge for the guard. Apologies if I misled anyone. Flesh and Iron treats the Sisters fairly, and even notes what skilled warriors they are. Such is the importance if fact-checking.

Quote from Psienesis

The events on Armageddon that sparked the war between the Chapter and the Inquisition was a case of the Space Wolves failing to know their place (which is, to be polite, very poor form for an organization that is supposed to be cunning in its tactics and military nature) and, worse, downright moronic in its understanding of the insidious nature of Chaos, rather than leaving such decisions up to those who know better. More, their meatheaded response ended up getting more people killed than were on the transports, including at least one world sentenced to Exterminatus.

Neither of you, although he would probably crack your heads together for being idiots.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Imperious wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Basically that.

They are the Space Marine equivalent of dude-bros. Saying Eff tha Man!, waving their middle fingers around, downing "mad brewskis", banging dumb cheerleader bishes, and using "wolf" instead of "bro" as every third word in their language.

Lol if there was ever a title designed to get all the haters of Vylka Fenrika together in one place it was this. I see my favourite Heretic leading the assault as always.

* Signals the LongFangs to open fire.

Prove me wrong.

The events on Armageddon that sparked the war between the Chapter and the Inquisition was a case of the Space Wolves failing to know their place (which is, to be polite, very poor form for an organization that is supposed to be cunning in its tactics and military nature) and, worse, downright moronic in its understanding of the insidious nature of Chaos, rather than leaving such decisions up to those who know better. More, their meatheaded response ended up getting more people killed than were on the transports, including at least one world sentenced to Exterminatus.

In this case, the Wolves actually made the right decision. If you read the novel, you'll find that even the Grey Knights and other Inquisitors disagreed with Kysnaros and his methods. Judging from the novel, Kysnaros was far from suitable for the high position assigned to him. I would'nt say he was the one that 'knew better'. I'd say the war was sparked by Kysnaros' incompetence rather than the SW not knowing their place.

 Imperious wrote:
Remember we of the Rout are told stories of the emperor by someone that walked under the same stars as him.

Remember that this someone is old enough to be quite senile, and entombment into a dreadnought does not really help sanity. Just saying.

Not to mention the fact that the Wolves have a tradition of embellishing their sagas... not a habit, an established tradition.

In a kind of recursion, the non-canonicity of 40k can be canonically applied to the truth of Space Wolf stories.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Imperious wrote:
Remember we of the Rout are told stories of the emperor by someone that walked under the same stars as him.

Remember that this someone is old enough to be quite senile, and entombment into a dreadnought does not really help sanity. Just saying.

Seemed to be all there to me.

In this case, the Wolves actually made the right decision. If you read the novel, you'll find that even the Grey Knights and other Inquisitors disagreed with Kysnaros and his methods. Judging from the novel, Kysnaros was far from suitable for the high position assigned to him. I would'nt say he was the one that 'knew better'. I'd say the war was sparked by Kysnaros' incompetence rather than the SW not knowing their place.

No. This is not something you leave to chance. They were regular mortals exposed to Chaos. Death is the only option. Err on the side of caution and all that.

... this doesn't even get into the Space Wolves stonewalling the Ecclesiarchy following reports of pagan worship on Fenris. Of course the Wolves say it isn't happening, but then they don't let anyone come and check it out. What are the Wolves hiding?

Even if they are hiding who can pull rank on a first founding chapter home world full of vichous preadetors clasafied as a death world that can convinently explain them going missing say attacked by a wolf, or one of the many creatures that can kill you.

Far as I belive and read a chapter master is uncontested lord of planets they rule, bar the likes of inquisition or highest impirial authority. Very few can pull rank on them.

The Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas is part of the highest Imperial authority. She is a High Lord of Terra. There is literally no higher authority vested in any single person, and the only thing that can overturn her decisions is a vote by the other eleven High Lords (although it only has to be a clear majority, not unanimous against her).

As if that wasn't enough, the Adepta Sororitas is mandated to seek out heresy throughout the Imperium, including non-approved cults such as the one that was rumoured to have taken root on Fenris. In the pursuit of these duties, they are of rank with an Inquisitor.

So really, when it comes to the Ecclesiarchy "assault" on Fenris, the Space Wolves really were completely in the wrong and just throwing their abhuman bulk around like five year old bullies with a dirty secret.

jhe90 wrote:
Even if they are hiding who can pull rank on a first founding chapter home world full of vichous preadetors clasafied as a death world that can convinently explain them going missing say attacked by a wolf, or one of the many creatures that can kill you.

Far as I belive and read a chapter master is uncontested lord of planets they rule, bar the likes of inquisition or highest impirial authority. Very few can pull rank on them.

If the Space Wolves have nothing to hide... why hide it?

OK so maybe they can order them to let them make planet fall and investigate and demand they comply

However walking into the greatwolfs throne room then making demands to his face in own hall is probably a quick way to be wolf food.

There hardly the most cool headed of chapters at the best of time. Being first founding only making them able to get away with some of the arrogance/aggressive attitude to certain groups.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas is part of the highest Imperial authority. She is a High Lord of Terra. There is literally no higher authority vested in any single person

The Emperor.

So, why do the Space Wolves get special dispensation to be immature dicks towards some poor woman just trying to do her job?

Because they're the Space Wolves and... well. That's about it. There is no good reason beyond being a power fantasy for little boys.