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I brought it up because the part that you mentioned was "you looked it up". That's not really an option in the Imperium. There's nothing to look up. If you have a question about something, you ask your local Ministorum or Administratum official, and you'll be told the party line. If you question that, then you have problems.
The names of the Loyalist Primarchs are probably known, and probably associated with a single title. Like "Sanguinius The Pure", "Russ the Valorous", "Vulkan the Brave", etc. The Primarchs exist as myths, not living, breathing personages.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
TiamatRoar wrote: Just as you stated, the media is controlled by the administration, the arbiters, and the ecclesiarchy. All of them would be more than happy to explain who Leman Russ is in the interest of propaganda (well, in the arbiter's case, they'd explain it out of honest pride in the Imperiam. ...at least if one somehow managed to get into a conversation with one in the first place).
Well, the arbites do not care about propaganda, they care about enforcing the Imperial rules. The Ecclesiarchy cares about propaganda, but has no love for Russ or the space wolves, as you may have noticed from the fact they attacked the fang. Twice, but the first do not count, it was a renegade cardinal acting rogue. The Administratum would not be able to find its own shoes even if it was wearing them, but can definitely give you the weather reports of Agripinia Scylathrax IV from 594.M37. Also, they messed up with you tithe level, you have been upgraded to the higher level of tithe, and since you could not pay, they are going to send two regiments of Imperial Guard to destroy you. Of course, one of them was actually raised on your planet, so it will turn into a big slaughter between the two regiment. That is the Administratum for you.
TiamatRoar wrote: Hell, any Imperial citizen who goes to church (and the Imperium has BIG churches, if official art is any indication. Official art of preachers preaching to huge masses is also out there) probably hears stories of the primarchs preached to them on a near weekly basis. It all celebrates and encourages veneration of the Emperor and love of humanity, after all.
Yeah, I am sure the Ecclesiarchy loves to tell everyone how some cool huge obviously not human monsters saved mankind. They love mutants !
(Or maybe the Ecclesiarchy is more fond of telling them of Sebastian Thor, and Dolan Chirosius.)
TiamatRoar wrote: It's in the Imperium's best interest to tell everyone about the loyalist primarchs (in a heavily propagandized positive light, obviously).
No. It is in the best interest of the Imperium to tell everyone of human heroes that were not monsters .
TiamatRoar wrote: You have novels like the Cain novels and novels like the First and Only where they come up
I do not remember that from the Cain books I have read. I have not read any Tanith book though. Care to elaborate what they knew about the Primarch and on which occasion it sprung up ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TiamatRoar wrote: This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2014/04/02 19:34:45
Damn, that is some editing !
Just make sure you do not add/change big part of your message after posting it too often, else it is pretty likely some people will never notice the updated versions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/02 20:05:49
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
TiamatRoar wrote: Just as you stated, the media is controlled by the administration, the arbiters, and the ecclesiarchy. All of them would be more than happy to explain who Leman Russ is in the interest of propaganda (well, in the arbiter's case, they'd explain it out of honest pride in the Imperiam. ...at least if one somehow managed to get into a conversation with one in the first place).
Well, the arbites do not care about propaganda, they care about enforcing the Imperial rules. The Ecclesiarchy cares about propaganda, but has no love for Russ or the space wolves, as you may have noticed from the fact they attacked the fang. Twice, but the first do not count, it was a renegade cardinal acting rogue. The Administratum would not be able to find its own shoes even if it was wearing them, but can definitely give you the weather reports of Agripinia Scylathrax IV from 594.M37. Also, they messed up with you tithe level, you have been upgraded to the higher level of tithe, and since you could not pay, they are going to send two regiments of Imperial Guard to destroy you. Of course, one of them was actually raised on your planet, so it will turn into a big slaughter between the two regiment. That is the Administratum for you.
TiamatRoar wrote: Hell, any Imperial citizen who goes to church (and the Imperium has BIG churches, if official art is any indication. Official art of preachers preaching to huge masses is also out there) probably hears stories of the primarchs preached to them on a near weekly basis. It all celebrates and encourages veneration of the Emperor and love of humanity, after all.
Yeah, I am sure the Ecclesiarchy loves to tell everyone how some cool huge obviously not human monsters saved mankind. They love mutants !
(Or maybe the Ecclesiarchy is more fond of telling them of Sebastian Thor, and Dolan Chirosius.)
TiamatRoar wrote: It's in the Imperium's best interest to tell everyone about the loyalist primarchs (in a heavily propagandized positive light, obviously).
No. It is in the best interest of the Imperium to tell everyone of human heroes that were not monsters .
TiamatRoar wrote: You have novels like the Cain novels and novels like the First and Only where they come up
I do not remember that from the Cain books I have read. I have not read any Tanith book though. Care to elaborate what they knew about the Primarch and on which occasion it sprung up ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TiamatRoar wrote: This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2014/04/02 19:34:45
Damn, that is some editing !
Just make sure you do not add/change big part of your message after posting it too often, else it is pretty likely some people will never notice the updated versions.
Primarchs are no more abominations to humanity than Space Marines are. And Space Marines are canonically celebrated throughout the Imperium (even if just as legends on some planets) so I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy has no problem with using the primarchs as a propaganda tool, either.
As for the Cain books question, I thought it made it clear in the paragraph that I was talking about heros of the Imperium in general (in Cain's case, Cain himself is that propaganda hero). It's not like it takes very long for an Imperial propagandist to shoot off a quick "party line" about a whole slew of heros, primarchs included, and for the Imperium to encourage the proliferation of stories about them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote: I brought it up because the part that you mentioned was "you looked it up". That's not really an option in the Imperium. There's nothing to look up. If you have a question about something, you ask your local Ministorum or Administratum official, and you'll be told the party line. If you question that, then you have problems.
The names of the Loyalist Primarchs are probably known, and probably associated with a single title. Like "Sanguinius The Pure", "Russ the Valorous", "Vulkan the Brave", etc. The Primarchs exist as myths, not living, breathing personages.
By "look it up", I meant "ask around" (I never used the words "look it up", because the rest of that paragraph was meant to convey the context). Why else would I include "storytellers" and "ecclesiarchs" as an example of such a thing? You don't need google to do research, even in the Imperium where there are tons of preachers around ready to preach loving Imperial propaganda to the masses. In this case, "the party line" is all you need to envision Leman Russ as a hero, because that's what the party line IS.
The Ecclesiarchy might not like the Space Wolves, but that's no reason to not include Leman Russ in the sermons. He was, after all, a creation and son of the Emperor and one who was a staunch loyalist. Nor did he have any of the issues with the ecclesarchy that the modern day wolves have for the most part
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/02 20:20:26
Furyou Miko wrote: Yeah, but do you know who William Tecumseh Sherman is? :p Without looking at google.
Yes, I know who Sherman is, although admittingly that's because a long time ago I looked him up after seeing the tank with his name on it. But really, who says an Imperial citizen can't do the same thing? Although the Imperium isn't exactly well-known for informing it's citizens, that doesn't apply to its propaganda. If an Imperial Guardsman or citizen were to look at a Leman Russ tank and ask "Why is it named Leman Russ?", I'm sure the answer will be readily available somewhere, be it in books, storytellers, data crystals, or even just the local arbiter, ecclesiarch, commander, or commissar trying to prep up morale and loyalty. "Leman Russ was a Primarch that kicked the ass of humanity's enemies, just like this tank is about to do!"
And again, the Imperium is in a constant state of war. People are more aware of tanks and other warfare vehicles when a war is going on.
The vast bulk of the Imperium probably doesn't know why the Leman Russ is named after the Primarch of the Space Wolves. The story they get is not going to be consistent across the Imperium, but that's fine because a) most people will never see a Leman Russ, b) Most people will never meet someone from another planet. Commissars might know, as they're from the Schola Progenium, which is a first-rate education for the Imperium (read as: brainwashing)... but most people will never meet a Commissar.
The Ministorum? They probably don't know. The Leman Russ isn't their "thing", anyway, that's Munitorum. So, yes, stories and such can spread about the Russ, or the Primarchs themselves, but these are most likely going to be either outright fabrications or re-tellings of actual events that have grown so much in the telling as to be basically fables.
This, though, is also going to depend on the world. A world of Ultramar, for example, is probably going to know a lot more about Guilliman than they would, say, Dorn or Vulkan.
So when it comes to the question of "Why is it called a Leman Russ?", ask a dozen different people and get 47 different answers.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
TiamatRoar wrote: Primarchs are no more abominations to humanity than Space Marines are. And Space Marines are canonically celebrated throughout the Imperium (even if just as legends on some planets)
Yeah, because space marines sometime come to save your ass. Even then, they are more of a vague legend to most people of the Imperium. Also, space marines do not have wings, or only one eye, or metal hands, or…
TiamatRoar wrote: so I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy has no problem with using the primarchs as a propaganda tool, either.
The Ecclesiarchy does not use the space marines as a propaganda tool, as far as I know. Because they do not go along well.
TiamatRoar wrote: As for the Cain books question, I thought it made it clear in the paragraph that I was talking about heros of the Imperium in general (in Cain's case, Cain himself is that propaganda hero). It's not like it takes very long for an Imperial propagandist to shoot off a quick "party line" about a whole slew of heros, primarchs included, and for the Imperium to encourage the proliferation of stories about them.
Oh. So it has actually no relevance to if primarchs (as opposed to normal, still-living humans) are famous among the global population of the Imperium (as opposed to being famous among the Imperial Guard).
TiamatRoar wrote: The Ecclesiarchy might not like the Space Wolves, but that's no reason to not include Leman Russ in the sermons.
Yes it is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/02 20:50:27
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Furyou Miko wrote: Yeah, but do you know who William Tecumseh Sherman is? :p Without looking at google.
Yes, I know who Sherman is, although admittingly that's because a long time ago I looked him up after seeing the tank with his name on it. But really, who says an Imperial citizen can't do the same thing? Although the Imperium isn't exactly well-known for informing it's citizens, that doesn't apply to its propaganda. If an Imperial Guardsman or citizen were to look at a Leman Russ tank and ask "Why is it named Leman Russ?", I'm sure the answer will be readily available somewhere, be it in books, storytellers, data crystals, or even just the local arbiter, ecclesiarch, commander, or commissar trying to prep up morale and loyalty. "Leman Russ was a Primarch that kicked the ass of humanity's enemies, just like this tank is about to do!"
And again, the Imperium is in a constant state of war. People are more aware of tanks and other warfare vehicles when a war is going on.
The vast bulk of the Imperium probably doesn't know why the Leman Russ is named after the Primarch of the Space Wolves. The story they get is not going to be consistent across the Imperium, but that's fine because a) most people will never see a Leman Russ, b) Most people will never meet someone from another planet. Commissars might know, as they're from the Schola Progenium, which is a first-rate education for the Imperium (read as: brainwashing)... but most people will never meet a Commissar.
The Ministorum? They probably don't know. The Leman Russ isn't their "thing", anyway, that's Munitorum. So, yes, stories and such can spread about the Russ, or the Primarchs themselves, but these are most likely going to be either outright fabrications or re-tellings of actual events that have grown so much in the telling as to be basically fables.
This, though, is also going to depend on the world. A world of Ultramar, for example, is probably going to know a lot more about Guilliman than they would, say, Dorn or Vulkan.
So when it comes to the question of "Why is it called a Leman Russ?", ask a dozen different people and get 47 different answers.
That's fine. It doesn't matter WHY the Leman Russ is named after the primarch. It just matters that people are aware that "Leman Russ" is more than just "a smelly noisy tank" (of which I'm sure only a few of those 47 different answers would be)
TiamatRoar wrote: Primarchs are no more abominations to humanity than Space Marines are. And Space Marines are canonically celebrated throughout the Imperium (even if just as legends on some planets)
Yeah, because space marines sometime come to save your ass. Even then, they are more of a vague legend to most people of the Imperium.
Also, space marines do not have wings, or only one eye, or metal hands, or…
TiamatRoar wrote: so I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy has no problem with using the primarchs as a propaganda tool, either.
The Ecclesiarchy does not use the space marines as a propaganda tool, as far as I know. Because they do not go along well.
TiamatRoar wrote: As for the Cain books question, I thought it made it clear in the paragraph that I was talking about heros of the Imperium in general (in Cain's case, Cain himself is that propaganda hero). It's not like it takes very long for an Imperial propagandist to shoot off a quick "party line" about a whole slew of heros, primarchs included, and for the Imperium to encourage the proliferation of stories about them.
Oh. So it has actually no relevance to if primarchs (as opposed to normal, still-living humans) are famous among the global population of the Imperium (as opposed to being famous among the Imperial Guard).
TiamatRoar wrote: The Ecclesiarchy might not like the Space Wolves, but that's no reason to not include Leman Russ in the sermons.
According to this, the loyalist primarchs are considered saints. There's no source given for it though so I don't know if it comes from anywhere. If it's true, then it explicitly proves Leman Russ can be endorsed by the Ecclesiarchy (and thus probably is)
It's just a matter of if that Lexy article is true or not.
Well, while trying to track down the source of Primarchs being saints, I did see several people on forums state that's the case as if it were a fact, but they didn't give a source either. Guess I'll keep searching. In the meantime, while searching, I also found this snippet from Blood Reaver (A Nightlords novel by AB) brought up by someone in a forum.
Spoiler:
One example from Blood Reaver:
>‘Why?’ He forced the word through spit-wet teeth.
>The killer growled its words from the skull-faced helm. ‘I made this Imperium. I built it, night after night, with my sweat and my pride and a blade in my hands. I bought it with the blood in my brothers’ veins, fighting at the Emperor’s side, blinded by his light in the age before you entombed him as a messiah. You live, mortal, only because of my work. Your existence is mine. Look at me. You know what I am. Look past what cannot be true, and see what holds your life in his hands.’
>Maruc felt piss running down his leg, boiling hot against his skin. The Great Betrayer’s fallen angels. Mythology. A legend. ‘Just a legend,’ he croaked as he dangled. ‘Just a legend.’ Breath from his denial steamed on the warrior’s armour.
>‘We are not legends.’ The killer’s fist tightened again. ‘We are the architects of your empire, banished from history’s pages, betrayed by the husk you worship as it rots upon a throne of gold.’
>Maruc’s stinging eyes took in the silver aquila emblazoned across the killer’s chestplate. The Imperial eagle, cracked and broken, worn by a heretic.
>‘You owe us your life, mortal, so I give you this choice. You will serve the Eighth Legion,’ the killer promised, ‘or you will die screaming.’
Later:
>‘My name is Septimus.’ He still didn’t lower the guns. ‘I serve the Legiones Astartes aboard this ship.’ His voice carried into the chamber. No one spoke. ‘I’m here to find out each of your professions and areas of expertise, to determine your value to the Eighth Legion.’
>Maruc swallowed. ‘There is no Eighth Legion. I know my mythology.’
>Septimus couldn’t entirely fight down the smile. ‘Talk like that will get you killed on this ship. What was your duty on Ganges?’ As the guns came down, so did Maruc’s hands. He was suddenly uncomfortably aware that he needed a shower like never before.
So apparently even the traitor primarchs are in myths and legends, albeit with heavy propagandizing to try to make everyone think they're just a lie. At least in the case of where these bladdically-challenged fellows came from.
It's generally held that the Ecclesiarchy does not talk about the Traitor Legions, the Traitor Primarchs, Chaos in any sort of specific way (even to define what it is, other than "everything the Emperor says Thou Shalt Not to") or anything other than how awesome the Imperium, the God-Emperor and His Saints are.
Xenos are even widely brushed over, with little to no information about what different kinds of Xenos look like or act passing down to the average citizen. All Xenos are bad, so if it doesn't look human, kill it.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Yea. I guess some stories of them from 10,000 years ago managed to sneak into legends anyways or something in ADB's planets. At any rate, I found a lot of forum posters mentioning that statues of the various loyalist primarchs can be found throughout the Imperium in several BL stories, in case anyone still needs proof that the loyalist primarchs are like, actually known about in the wider Imperium.
TiamatRoar wrote: So apparently even the traitor primarchs are in myths and legends, albeit with heavy propagandizing to try to make everyone think they're just a lie. At least in the case of where these bladdically-challenged fellows came from.
Yeah, I am totally comfortable with the idea of some planets having legends related to the Heresy. Half-forgotten, twisted myth that can be quite close or very far from the truth, change from one world to another, etc. That is very 40k-esque. Now, them knowing too much details, too much precise stuff, with too much homogeneity, that does not feel well.
Is Blood Reaver happening in M41, or earlier ? It seems to be happening in M41, but just to be sure…
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/04/02 23:42:35
Subject: Re:Are space wolves rebels of the imperium?
Hell, any Imperial citizen who goes to church (and the Imperium has BIG churches, if official art is any indication. Official art of preachers preaching to huge masses is also out there) probably hears stories of the primarchs preached to them on a near weekly basis. It all celebrates and encourages veneration of the Emperor and love of humanity, after all.
Most people only hear of the 'Angels of Death', and many have never once seen a space marine in their life. How are they to know what a Primarch is? The church prefer to play up actual saints and the Emperor.
TiamatRoar wrote: so I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy has no problem with using the primarchs as a propaganda tool, either.
The Ecclesiarchy does not use the space marines as a propaganda tool, as far as I know. Because they do not go along well.
Since when do the Ecclessiarchy and the Space Marines not get along anymore? For every chapter not being on good terms with the Ecclessiarchy there are plenty of chapters that have very close ties and go along very well with the Ecclessiarchy. It looks you are just making stuff up now. And since when do they not use the Marines as a propaganda tool? Do you have any sources for that?
TiamatRoar wrote: The Ecclesiarchy might not like the Space Wolves, but that's no reason to not include Leman Russ in the sermons.
Yes it is.
Why? Afaik, the Ecclessiarchy had no trouble with Russ. Russ is the Emperor's son after all, and that fact makes him quite an important religious figure.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: The church prefer to play up actual saints and the Emperor.
How do you know that? And the primarchs have always been referred to as saints as far as I can remember. I'll see if I can dig up some example in the pile of books I have lying around.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/03 00:11:31
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2014/04/03 00:16:00
Subject: Re:Are space wolves rebels of the imperium?
Because when we see some worlds civilians reacting to Space Marines they half the time don't even know what they are called beyond 'angels of death', some react in fear, some aren't even sure what they are exactly.
Not to mention the fact that the ecclessiarchy might not even be the same for each world, you might find some sainthood amongst more of those nearer the rich sectors, but half the time you get preachers trying to describe who the Emperor is to primitive worlds, to industrial worlds, along with those in the sectors. Then you've got those in the church who don't see the Primarchs as anything different from the normal 'angels of death', then you've got those who just want to make sure they worship the emperor and not chaos, or are trying to whip them passionately into the Imperium's embrace..
I mean some planets may know of them as saints, but the Ecclessiarchy, like the rest of the Imperium is varied by person.
Iron_Captain wrote: Since when do the Ecclessiarchy and the Space Marines not get along anymore?
Codex: Sisters of Battle, Warhammer 40k second edition.
Iron_Captain wrote: For every chapter not being on good terms with the Ecclessiarchy there are plenty of chapters that have very close ties and go along very well with the Ecclessiarchy.
Well, it seems the black templars now have good relations with the ecclesiarchy. I cannot name any other.
Very close ties, when most chapters do not even recognize the divinity of the Emperor ?
Iron_Captain wrote: And since when do they not use the Marines as a propaganda tool? Do you have any sources for that?
I do not need sources to prove what they do not do. You need source to prove what they do. Because else, I am pretty sure that Donald Duck is an Imperial Saint, and you have no source to disprove me.
Iron_Captain wrote: Russ is the Emperor's son after all, and that fact makes him quite an important religious figure.
Well, not really that much with the current orientation of the church. Which focus on, you know, humans.
Iron_Captain wrote: And the primarchs have always been referred to as saints as far as I can remember. I'll see if I can dig up some example in the pile of books I have lying around.
Okay, I will let you provide examples. But really, I do not remember any mention of any Primarch in Codex: Sisters of Battle for 40k Second Edition, which is as far as I know one of the most complete source of fluff ever on the Ecclesiarchy, for instance.,
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/04/03 00:29:40
Subject: Re:Are space wolves rebels of the imperium?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Because when we see some worlds civilians reacting to Space Marines they half the time don't even know what they are called beyond 'angels of death', some react in fear, some aren't even sure what they are exactly.
Not to mention the fact that the ecclessiarchy might not even be the same for each world, you might find some sainthood amongst more of those nearer the rich sectors, but half the time you get preachers trying to describe who the Emperor is to primitive worlds, to industrial worlds, along with those in the sectors. Then you've got those in the church who don't see the Primarchs as anything different from the normal 'angels of death', then you've got those who just want to make sure they worship the emperor and not chaos, or are trying to whip them passionately into the Imperium's embrace..
I mean some planets may know of them as saints, but the Ecclessiarchy, like the rest of the Imperium is varied by person.
I think the fact that they are called 'angels' already says enough. Angels are divine beings. And the fact people are afraid of them makes perfect sense. How would you react if an angel of death suddenly stood on your doorstep? Especially if they look as scary as the Space Marines. I think Wrath of Iron does a really good job of describing the way common people view the Space Marines. It is especially interesting since most of the population there actually believes they are worshipping the Emperor and the Imperial forces attacking them are heretics.
But you are right in that the Ecclessiarchy and beliefs are very different from planet to planet. Views on the Astartes are likely just as varied.
Iron_Captain wrote: Since when do the Ecclessiarchy and the Space Marines not get along anymore? For every chapter not being on good terms with the Ecclessiarchy there are plenty of chapters that have very close ties and go along very well with the Ecclessiarchy.
This is true. The Black Templars actively go around aiding the Ecclesiarchy, there's at least a few Marine Chapters that have adopted the Imperial Creed, and the Ultramarines have a shrine world in their home system. Also, the Ecclesiarchy provides Marine Chaplains with Rosariuses. I would imagine that the average Marine Chapter can be at least civil with the Ecclesiarchy, in the interests of of the mission.
Iron_Captain wrote: Since when do the Ecclessiarchy and the Space Marines not get along anymore?
Codex: Sisters of Battle, Warhammer 40k second edition.
Well, in fairness, that's just how the Sisters feel about the average Marine. And whilst it does say that the two have some tension, I recall that it also talks about how they can work well together as soldiers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/03 01:05:31
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
There are statues of the primarchs on various planets, and Sanguinus has his own friggin' Imperial Holiday. Sure, the other primarchs don't (at least on a galactic scale, to my knowledge), but I imagine even one Primarch having the closest thing to an Imperium-wide holiday is enough that a significant portion of the populace knows about the primarchs. They might not know the exact details of the primarchs (such as them being genetically engineered super beings) but they'd at least have SOME basic inkling of them being the Emperor's sons or famous heros or whatever else if Sanguinus has a holiday and there are statues of the primarchs around. And that's more than knowing Leman Russ as just "a smelly noisy tank".
"Of all the Primarchs of the Space Marines it is Sanguinius whose temples rise aside those of the Emperor, and whose name is cherished by ordinary folk in gratitude for the life that was taken and the life that was spared. Alone of all the Primarchs his memory is honoured by a sanctified day of celebration, the Sanguinala, when Adepts across the galaxy wear upon their breast the red badge of the Lord Angel." 2nd ed Wargear book, p64.
Although only Sanguinus has that honor, odds are pretty darn good that if the Imperium propaganda machine is going to create a holiday for one of the primarchs and let that particular cat out of the bag, the rest could at least get a mention in various stories, in the interest of propaganda and giving preachers some stories to preach about. Honestly, preachers don't ONLY preach random prayers and litanies. Story-telling makes up a huge portion of almost every sermon I've ever seen. If not preachers, I'm sure the Imperium has other ways to administer Imperial propaganda.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/04/03 01:17:10
2014/04/03 03:03:49
Subject: Re:Are space wolves rebels of the imperium?
Well, in fairness, that's just how the Sisters feel about the average Marine. And whilst it does say that the two have some tension, I recall that it also talks about how they can work well together as soldiers.
If the sisters of battle would be anything like their fans than i'd say they think that the SM's are mutant scum even thought that would make big E a mutant mad scientist, which is very possible.
Well, not really that much with the current orientation of the church. Which focus on, you know, humans.
I imagine it depends on which world. Ultramars people probably have an accurate or at least as close as you can get to accurate account of history as you can get in the imperium.
Oh and as far as who are heirs to the Emperor, the forces in the eye, yea I know they hate him but I think Fabius had it down when he said
Spoiler:
Unlike you, whelp, I once walked the same ground as your idol. I breathed the same air as him. And I tell you this, without lie or artifice. He never wanted to become what you have made him! He did not wish to be your god-thing. He abhorred such ideals! The slavery of your crippled, blind Imperium would sicken him, if he had eyes to see it.
Without a doubt the greatest scientist of the 41st millennium making his own version of space marines, a lot closer to the Emperor than any high lord of Terra.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/03 03:04:05
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever
2014/04/03 06:38:27
Subject: Re:Are space wolves rebels of the imperium?
Ironclad Warlord wrote: If the sisters of battle would be anything like their fans than i'd say they think that the SM's are mutant scum even thought that would make big E a mutant mad scientist, which is very possible.
Well that's certainly not how they feel. They're uncomfortable with the Marines being post-human, yes, but they'll fight alongside them just fine. They can even come to respect Marines that they fight alongside, and especially respect the Black Templars, as noted in the latest SM codex.
And, speaking as an SoB fan, I'm perfectly fine with Marines.
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
Marine players seem to think that Sisters players hate Marines, because we have the gall to insist that the codex is telling the truth when it says that our gear is of the same quality and power as the Astartes' and that yes, the Sisters are the best option outside other Astartes when it comes to purging fallen chapters.
The truth is, we don't hate Marines. We just refuse to be sidelined by them. From an in-universe point of view, the Sisters distrust the Marines' inhumanity, but respect their prowess - just like the Astartes respect the Sisters' humanity, but look down on their prowess.
Of course, once Astartes and Sororitas actually fight side by side, they realise that actually, the Astartes are trustworthy, and the Sororitas are capable of matching Astartes as a fighting force.
If only Marine players would come to the same realisation.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
TiamatRoar wrote: They might not know the exact details of the primarchs (such as them being genetically engineered super beings) but they'd at least have SOME basic inkling of them being the Emperor's sons or famous heros or whatever else if Sanguinus has a holiday and there are statues of the primarchs around.
Well, I would be surprised if they even knew the word primarch, actually.
They know Sanguinius as a vague mythical hero of ancient times. I do not think they know anything more than he sacrificed himself somehow for the Emperor. Everything else, including the fact he was leading one the Astartes legions, the fact that there were others like him, or the fact the Astartes were regrouped by legion back then, it imho something they are not aware of.
TiamatRoar wrote: Although only Sanguinus has that honor, odds are pretty darn good that if the Imperium propaganda machine is going to create a holiday for one of the primarchs and let that particular cat out of the bag, the rest could at least get a mention in various stories, in the interest of propaganda and giving preachers some stories to preach about.
I do not think the Imperium do propaganda on the centralized way you describe. I do not think a random preacher will talk about the primarch because I do not think a random preacher will know about the primarch, for instance.
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Furyou Miko wrote: just like the Astartes respect the Sisters' humanity, but look down on their prowess.
Not what I remember from the 2nd edition, which IIRC said that the Astartes respect the Sisters prowess, but dislike their zealotry.
Can anyone quote the actual text from the codex ?
Iron_Captain wrote: I think the fact that they are called 'angels' already says enough.
Well, the Inquisition is not, despite its name, a religious organization, so I would say not necessarily.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/03 08:57:38
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
The book doesn't really go into what the Astartes think of the Sisters, because it doesn't cover their point of view. I based that on the fact that Marines look down on everyone's prowess except for that of Marines. Any statement of a respect towards a non-Astartes is qualified by "For a human", after all.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
TiamatRoar wrote: They might not know the exact details of the primarchs (such as them being genetically engineered super beings) but they'd at least have SOME basic inkling of them being the Emperor's sons or famous heros or whatever else if Sanguinus has a holiday and there are statues of the primarchs around.
Well, I would be surprised if they even knew the word primarch, actually.
They know Sanguinius as a vague mythical hero of ancient times. I do not think they know anything more than he sacrificed himself somehow for the Emperor. Everything else, including the fact he was leading one the Astartes legions, the fact that there were others like him, or the fact the Astartes were regrouped by legion back then, it imho something they are not aware of.
TiamatRoar wrote: Although only Sanguinus has that honor, odds are pretty darn good that if the Imperium propaganda machine is going to create a holiday for one of the primarchs and let that particular cat out of the bag, the rest could at least get a mention in various stories, in the interest of propaganda and giving preachers some stories to preach about.
I do not think the Imperium do propaganda on the centralized way you describe. I do not think a random preacher will talk about the primarch because I do not think a random preacher will know about the primarch, for instance.
They don't have to know the word primarch. They don't have to know that the primarchs are genetically engineered by the Emperor. They don't even have to know they're the Emperor's sons. All they have to know for Leman Russ to be known as more than just "a smelly noisy tank" is that they are heros of humanity. That Sanguinus has a galactic holiday shows the Imperium is more than capable of getting this sort of propaganda out on a galactic level, so why wouldn't they let stories of the other primarchs go around the galaxy? If even Logan, who's only been around for 300 years, can be beloved across the Imperium, than propagating myths of biblical proportions that the Imperium has every reason to propagate as it sends its missionaries everywhere should be child's play. The initial missionaries aren't born on the planet they're travelling to and converting. They have to come from somewhere else. And obviously they'll take those stories with them from that somewhere else, even when finding a way to reconcile or assimilate the old religion of the planet into it. Given that the primarchs are second only to the Emperor himself when it comes to the origins of the Imperium, it would be complete nonsense for tales and legends of them to spread across the galaxy.
And as stated, statues of various primarchs can be found on various planets, so it's established anyways.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/03 16:12:58
2014/04/03 16:54:57
Subject: Re:Are space wolves rebels of the imperium?
Marine players seem to think that Sisters players hate Marines, because we have the gall to insist that the codex is telling the truth when it says that our gear is of the same quality and power as the Astartes' and that yes, the Sisters are the best option outside other Astartes when it comes to purging fallen chapters.
The truth is, we don't hate Marines. We just refuse to be sidelined by them. From an in-universe point of view, the Sisters distrust the Marines' inhumanity, but respect their prowess - just like the Astartes respect the Sisters' humanity, but look down on their prowess.
Of course, once Astartes and Sororitas actually fight side by side, they realise that actually, the Astartes are trustworthy, and the Sororitas are capable of matching Astartes as a fighting force.
If only Marine players would come to the same realisation.
They can't get along the same reasons the followers of Khorne and Slaanesh can't get along, they have a completely different aim of what they wan't to achieve. The Sisters would turn the Imperium into a complete theocracy, the Space Marines would turn it back into a rationalistic dictatorship, well most of them the Blood Angels and Templars would just want to drink blood and laugh as they slaughter people.
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Well, I would be surprised if they even knew the word primarch, actually.
I agree most of the fluff has imperial citizens having no idea what a primarch is. even the grey knights aren't sure if Angron ever was a son of the Emperor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/03 16:56:16
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever
They can't get along the same reasons the followers of Khorne and Slaanesh can't get along, they have a completely different aim of what they wan't to achieve. The Sisters would turn the Imperium into a complete theocracy, the Space Marines would turn it back into a rationalistic dictatorship, well most of them the Blood Angels and Templars would just want to drink blood and laugh as they slaughter people.
No, they wouldn't. There are several studio Chapters of Space Marines who worship the Emperor as a god.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
TiamatRoar wrote: All they have to know for Leman Russ to be known as more than just "a smelly noisy tank" is that they are heros of humanity.
So, you are saying that typical imperial citizen know that there was a hero named Leman Russ, but cannot say anything about his life, have no idea that he was not human, and are completely oblivious of the fact the is in any way linked to the space wolves.
Well, that is a possibility, yes;
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TiamatRoar wrote: Given that the primarchs are second only to the Emperor himself when it comes to the origins of the Imperium
Reference needed. I would certainly think the Ecclesiarchy would place Sebastian Thor and Fatidicus above the Primarch. I mean, half of them joined Chaos, how holy does that makes them ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/03 17:23:36
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
So, you are saying that typical imperial citizen know that there was a hero named Leman Russ, but cannot say anything about his life, have no idea that he was not human, and are completely oblivious of the fact the is in any way linked to the space wolves.
Well, that is a possibility, yes;
The Space Wolves are the most-famous Chapter of Space Marines in the modern Imperium, because of the far-ranging nature of their Great Hunts and where these epic quests take them. The humans that are, invariably, rescued in the nick of time by the sudden arrival of the Great Hunt are, no doubt, told the epic sagas of Russ. So while a lot of the language is obtuse for these average Joes, they can still enjoy a good adventure story that even the Space Wolves get the details of wrong (they like to embellish tales, or just make them up, too). So the Average Joe probably doesn't know wtf a "Primarch" is, but he knows that Russ was a Space Marine badass who walked beside the God-Emperor as a son.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
.
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far. 
