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Point cost is nearly the same and both bring some blasty goodness.

Ignoring CT and the rest of the army, does one stand out over the other?

Is the added range worth the reduced Strength?

For me, the difference is survivability. The devs cannot be wiped out by a single high ST attack, but the Vindicator is completely immune to most small arms fire. It comes down to what your local meta looks like, honestly. (For my money, I prefer the devs.)

How much AV do you have in your army?

If the Vindie would be the only tank don't bother, if you run a Razorback list then take it.

 Orlanth wrote:
How much AV do you have in your army?

If the Vindie would be the only tank don't bother, if you run a Razorback list then take it.

That's good advice, but since the rest of the list is still influx, I'm looking for advice that doesn't hinge on the rest of the list.

Add 1 extra marine to your dev squad and park it on an ADL.

Going with what DA have.
Vindicator - Large Blast - Plasma 24" Range one shot (125 Points)
Dev Squad - 4x Small Blast - Plasma 36" Range (130)

Do you want a large shot at a slightly cheaper cost, with more of a nomadic and threat bubble or lots of little shots with higher survival change, better spread and range?

 Inkubas wrote:
Going with what DA have.
Vindicator - Large Blast - Plasma 24" Range one shot (125 Points)
Dev Squad - 4x Small Blast - Plasma 36" Range (130)

Do you want a large shot at a slightly cheaper cost, with more of a nomadic and threat bubble or lots of little shots with higher survival change, better spread and range?

Exactly my dilemma.

S10 is awesome, but only being able to put one wound on an MC vs 4 is an issue.

Vindis prefer to be used in bulk. One is a distraction, two is an issue, three can decide the game.

I run 2 and keep a dev squad with Las cannons for range find that's really hard for my opponents to deal with it also works on MC and blobs really well. But that doesn't answer your question.

 minigun762 wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
Going with what DA have.
Vindicator - Large Blast - Plasma 24" Range one shot (125 Points)
Dev Squad - 4x Small Blast - Plasma 36" Range (130)

Do you want a large shot at a slightly cheaper cost, with more of a nomadic and threat bubble or lots of little shots with higher survival change, better spread and range?

Exactly my dilemma.

S10 is awesome, but only being able to put one wound on an MC vs 4 is an issue.

Then it comes down to your list.

If the Demolisher cannon will be working alone and you face nidzilla it wont be enough. But then Vindicators are not 'zilla killers. If you have plenty of lascannon elsewhere then you could use the Vindicator to finish off an MC which is a good target for the turn. You must have some idea what you want, whether you want mechanised podded, footslogger or bike, if these HS choices are the starting point you are asking the wrong question. First work out:
- How many scoring units you will have
- How many are mobile to attack and what gets them there
- Your primary anti horde firepower source (massed bolters, heavy bolters, Whirlwinds, flamers)
- Your primary anti tank firepower (lascannon and melta guns)
- Do you have at least one unit with skyfire (ignore if your local meta has no flyers)

Get these questions out of flux and your choice of Vindicator or Devastators will be made for you. Both do work, personally I prefer the Vindicator, because its different, doesnt get hot and mostly because I am a treadhead, Those who say you need more than one Vindicator to work are not kidding. You need several heavy vehicles or don't bother the other need not be other Vindicators. Land Raiders or Predators work and there is a case for the lascannon dread, just so long as you put multiple dangerously armed AV12+ on the line for the opponent to shoot at.

Really its this simple, if you are bringing meat bring more meat. The only vehicles to bother with in an infantry heavy list are land speeders, flyers, hidden Whirlwinds and drop pods. To quote Field Marshal William Sim 'One tank is no tank'.

Relic Predators with Plasma Destroyer?

 Orlanth wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
Going with what DA have.
Vindicator - Large Blast - Plasma 24" Range one shot (125 Points)
Dev Squad - 4x Small Blast - Plasma 36" Range (130)

Do you want a large shot at a slightly cheaper cost, with more of a nomadic and threat bubble or lots of little shots with higher survival change, better spread and range?

Exactly my dilemma.

S10 is awesome, but only being able to put one wound on an MC vs 4 is an issue.

Then it comes down to your list.

If the Demolisher cannon will be working alone and you face nidzilla it wont be enough. But then Vindicators are not 'zilla killers. If you have plenty of lascannon elsewhere then you could use the Vindicator to finish off an MC which is a good target for the turn. You must have some idea what you want, whether you want mechanised podded, footslogger or bike, if these HS choices are the starting point you are asking the wrong question. First work out:
- How many scoring units you will have
- How many are mobile to attack and what gets them there
- Your primary anti horde firepower source (massed bolters, heavy bolters, Whirlwinds, flamers)
- Your primary anti tank firepower (lascannon and melta guns)
- Do you have at least one unit with skyfire (ignore if your local meta has no flyers)

Get these questions out of flux and your choice of Vindicator or Devastators will be made for you. Both do work, personally I prefer the Vindicator, because its different, doesnt get hot and mostly because I am a treadhead, Those who say you need more than one Vindicator to work are not kidding. You need several heavy vehicles or don't bother the other need not be other Vindicators. Land Raiders or Predators work and there is a case for the lascannon dread, just so long as you put multiple dangerously armed AV12+ on the line for the opponent to shoot at.

Really its this simple, if you are bringing meat bring more meat. The only vehicles to bother with in an infantry heavy list are land speeders, flyers, hidden Whirlwinds and drop pods. To quote Field Marshal William Sim 'One tank is no tank'.

Looking at your list as a whole is really the only way to do it. There are so many different ways to build a C:SM list, you can’t just look at everything in a vacuum.

I am dropping my Devs for more Vindicators. In the last 5 or so games i have played the Vindicator has been the MVP, specially when behind an ADL

I realized a while back that I have never regretted putting a Vindicator in my army.

Even if the Vindy never causes a wound, it's a scare tactic. Players are generally terrified of that S10 blast, and for good reason. They will do everything they can to avoid being hit by it with anything important.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Even if the Vindy never causes a wound, it's a scare tactic. Players are generally terrified of that S10 blast, and for good reason. They will do everything they can to avoid being hit by it with anything important.

That's a good point and something that I don't think you'd be able to replicate with the Devastators.

 Jimsolo wrote:
For me, the difference is survivability. The devs cannot be wiped out by a single high ST attack, but the Vindicator is completely immune to most small arms fire. It comes down to what your local meta looks like, honestly. (For my money, I prefer the devs.)

I'm exactly on the opposite side here. The devs can very well be wiped out by a single "attack", and by "attack" I mean one enemy squad firing at them. Whether this is a single Lascannon (needed to destroy the Vindicator) or a volley of plasma rifle fire (needed to wipe out the Devs) at the end of the day it doesnt matter - one enemy unit spent its shooting phase targeting your unit.

So, I believe 4 PC devs just cant take any sort of beating, while a Vindicator on the other hand, actually is quite survivable with its 3 HP and front AV13 - its only problem is that it'll most likely get shot in the sides, where it isnt any better than a Rhino.

However, unlike the Devs it can move and shoot, or if need be, rapidly reposition itself (18".

In 6th edition, it can also work as a tank hunter with its S10 pie plate not reducing its S to half if the central hole scatters off the enemy vehicle hull; plus its "roll 2D6 and pick highest for armor pen" rule, and AP2 means you get a nice bonus on the vehicle damage table as well.

The PC can only insta-kill Eldar or IG characters, while the Demolisher Cannon can insta-kill a whole range of T4 multi wound models and even T5 ones like Ogryns.

Lastly, the Vindicator never has to worry about losing 25% of its firepower with every overheat-death. And with 4 Plasma Cannons firing, you are looking at a 66.66% chance of at least one guy overheating, lol. Did that ever cross your mind? This means that there is a 11% chance of one guy dying with every volley fired. The only thing the Devs have going for them is more damage to infantry (4 small blasts, one of which is BS5 > 1 large blast BS4) and do much better vs T6+ MCs. However, if you are targeting a T6 MC with a scattering blast weapon in the first place, you are doing something wrong.

Vindie for me.

Not considering anything such as the list they are going into, the enemy you will be facing, or the tactics, I would have to go with the Devs. They output 4 small blasts versus the one large blast. If you want a specific couple models in a unit dead, you can hone in on them with all four of the small blasts, rather than just one hit from a large blast. Same thing with MC's or LAV's, 4 plasma hits is better than 1. Also, you can pay a few points extra to add survivability to it (space marines) and get a few bolter shots as well as spreading the devs out from eachother.

While a vindicator is nice, space marines don't generally take enough AV to create enough saturation to benefit from it being a vehicle.

Interesting comments on Vindies vs Devs now on this thread.
Lot of loving heading the Vindies way, I would have thought the Devs more popular. I must admit also having never regretted fielding a Vindicator.
However if trying to assess the two units in isolation I still think the thread is getting it backwards.

The issue to choose from is not 4x S7 small blast vs 1x S10 large blast it is AV13 vs T4 3+. Either choice will be a priority target, dead models don't shoot and their gun stats become irrelevant.


Some comments on Devastators.
Until recently due to wargear prices Dev squads should have only been equipped with heavy bolters or missile launchers. However as the currecnt Codex has opened this up plasma and lascannon devs are more fairly priced and become a good buy.
However in all cases the cost of an extra marine has been static.

Devs rule #1
Always take a ten man squad.
We can allow exception for Razorback themed lists, because themed lists consider theme first and efficiency second In all other cases take ten marines to act as bullet stoppers. If the heavy weapons are incompatible, for instance lascannon just swallow the loss the the bolter shots. You will be doing this anyway if you take lascannon or melta tacticals and lascannon devs beat those as you get more guns at the same price.

Devs Rule #2
Always use Combat squads.
Overkill is overkill, turn those ten marines into two squads. Never underestimate the utility of firing at two targets when half the firepower is enough for the job.

Devs Rule #3
Take the guns that do the work.

Lascannon - In the current dex it is now plausible to move all the lascannon into the Devs so that tactical dont waste firepower sitting around as extra wounds for a lascannon. Multi-meltas also come in here. If infantry firepower heavy and anti tank light then take lascannon devastators in all circumstances.
Plasma cannon - Nice for killing 2+ save but in general lascannon are more useful
Heavy bolters - Heavy bolters belong in 10 man tactical squads, a heavy weapon to complement squad firepower so nothing is wasted. Heavy bolter devs do work and work well, but it isnt really necessary.
Missile launchers - The one size fits all option, also now a better choice for tacticals as a result. Especially as it allows you to split up your skyfire and because skyfire missile launchers are the new price topper. Still missile launcher devs are a great toolbox unit.

If you cant afford that have fewer tacticals or cheaper guns. A ten man missile launcher squad (without skyfire) will be way superior to a five man plasma cannon squad. The numbers and the ultility mean more.
.

I would be inclined to loadout any Devs with lascannon or missile launchers and only swap to plasma cannon if the list can afford the change, plasma cannon really arent that useful. Lascannon kill vehicles, missile launchers are a toolbox. What do plasma cannon do, kill termies with added splash damage? I think lascannon do an adequate job against 2+ save monsters and infantry as most have a low model count, let alone the benefit of T4 ID and no scatter. Lascannon will keep up with plasma cannon against carnifes and terminators and will outperform against MANz. With a ten man squad you could have both. So we come to the real benefit of plasma cannon, against bunched MEQ. Fair enough they are good at that, very good in fact and get a killer rep, but krak missiles are still good at taking away 3+, as are plasma guns, and IMHO bolters do an ok job. Plasma cannon may be a luxury marines don't actually need, if you don't take 'enough' plasma you can make do but if you dont take enough lascannon you are in trouble. Really marine players have to look long and hard about what to outfit their heavies with, hence the thread, you get a lot of options but not that many spaces and points. Many squads have their weapons dictated by their squad role, Devs being a notable exception. In fact on every occasion I have taken the levity of Devs to mean thus:
1. Build army
2. Include room for 10 devs and points for guns
3. Choose guns.

With the choice of guns being dictated by the list composition. I am sure if SM were real this is how they would operate, Devastators are wildcards and SM are well equipped, the strike cruiser will have plenty of all gun options to spare and the Devs would be equipped to cover the companies firepower needs just before battle. I could see them being the last to take up arms, waiting in the Chapter armoury until the last minute so the Captain has time to ponder the situation with the intel unveiling around him and work out what firepower is most needed with the Devs then crash arming and racing to the Thunderhawk as the rest of the company makes its descent. Either than or place four of each gun on the Thunderhawk and choose on the way down.

I think the whole idea of building the list around 5 man plasma squads (or Vindicators) as the starting point is completely backward

Combat-squading devs is a rare thing you meet cause of 5 extra meq bodies are quite expensive - 220 pts for 4 lazcannons in a 10-strong squad. On the bright side: they're way more durable and you can put them in different places covering tehe board and shooting from different angles. However, you can pay extra 80 pts and just get another squad with lazcannons...

 koooaei wrote:
Combat-squading devs is a rare thing you meet cause of 5 extra meq bodies are quite expensive - 220 pts for 4 lazcannons in a 10-strong squad. On the bright side: they're way more durable and you can put them in different places covering the board and shooting from different angles. However, you can pay extra 80 pts and just get another squad with lazcannons...

I see your thinking but I respectfully disagree here. Yes you end up with five man squads again by combat squadding, but with two heavy weapons each and three bonus wounds, its less tempting and less vulnerable than a five man squad with four heavy weapons. All told combat squads are a good combo.. As Devastator squads are priced identically to Tacticals man for man gun for gun the only thing you miss out on over taking two squads is the extra Signum. That would be all well and good if you can afford two HS slots, most armies cannot.

I see no reason to baulk at the cost of taking ten man Devastator squads, the price per marines is static and with exception of assault orientated squads. If you disdain combat squads then fair enough, but think about this. The decision to take combat squads is made at the beginning of the game, but at the tabletop. Formally the decision to make combat squads occurs just before rolling on the Warlord traits table. This means you can make significant changes to your force org after seeing the terrain layout, after seeing the opponents army and composition, after seeing scenario being played, and location of objectives. This ability is unique to Space Marines but only available if the headcount totals ten, I try to comply with this for any infantry squad except Terminators. Combat squads allow you to condense or double the size of eligible infantry and bike units, in some cases doubling number of scoring units, in other allowing firepower to be split and in a way radically changes you list, especially as you choose what goes where. So if the opponents list offers little firepower and a lot of assault, swarm nids for instance it may be worthwhile and legal to make a combat squad of the sergeant and four devastators, and use the other five marines as a speed bump/non scoring Tactical.
Remember that just because you configure a Devastator squad, or any other to be ready for combat squads, it doesn't mean you have to do so, and if you do you have no obligation to spread weaponry out evenly.

Going by looks, Vindicator wins everytime!

 kronk wrote:
Going by looks, Vindicator wins everytime!

While I agree that the vindi is a nice looking tank, I’ve seen some very well painted devastators. But you bring up one of the most important aspects of unit selection: What do you think looks cooler?

The last game I played, my buddy's vindicator died on turn 2 before getting within range of anything, and his PC Devs wiped out an entire squad of Purifiers with Coteaz on turn 1 while hiding in cover... One vindicator by itself is useless.

Amended: I was out of line, my apologies.

 kronk wrote:
Going by looks, Vindicator wins everytime!

I cannot agree with that, the current Devastator and Vindicator kits are both excellent, but we have only had a decent Vindicator model for a short time. Even up until a few years ago you either hd to have a Forgeworld kit or an 80's Rhino with metal bits.
My Vindicator is old school, and does look awesome but because of the old rhino chassis and the misfitting metal parts it took a lot of conversion to get it that way, including the purchase of the old school rhino extra armour plates and a fair amount of plasticard and redistribution of bits.
Old school Vindies made straight from the box look crap.

The 66% overheating is not correct with 4 plasma cannons.

48.2% chance of 0 gets hot
38.6% chance of 1 gets hot
3.9% chance of 2 gets hot
1.5% chance of 3 gets hot
0.1% chance of 4 gets hot

*edit*
WIth prescience the chances of 0 gets hot jumps to 79.6%

Edited.

In fairness to Nevelon whether a model is cool has a lot to do with how much table time it gets. Not every player thinks that way, but some do.

Aesthetics and tactics are separate, but they are not mutually exclusive. Some people come to the tactics forums to make use of a col unit or combination of units that look better than they perform. I myself do this all the time, as a collector first I have one of most units. Most tactics threads recommend you find something that works and spam it. One can also do well with separate but similar serving complementary units and the lack of specialization can be rewarding tactically as it is in terms of coolness.
I have only one Vindicator, not for tactical reasons but because i also wanted a Whirlwind and a Devastator squad and now a Thunderfire cannon. So I learned how to fight and win with one. Still on a tactics thread I envision or remember from other lists the effectiveness of more than one however I must stater that the coolness factor of having one of each toy was the actual reason my collection ended up that way, but I also comment on how you can replace multiple Vindicators with complementary units, and this I have done.

On top of this a lot of players have similar collections, they have one of each either to end up with a greater variety of toys or because they simply cannot afford to have three of each tank either in room, time or cash. Tactical discussions based purely around optimized lists are often less useful. The optimum tactical option might be three of a unit, but Dakka is not the real world, those miniatures cost money and allow less room for other toys, so sometimes tactics has to be tempered with what is affordable, and so often that comes straight down to what unit the player likes, maybe due to a great looking model than a great looking statline, and this is in no way 'wrong'.


Nevelon, carry on, you're causing no intended offense and are alright by me.

 Ryan_A wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
But you bring up one of the most important aspects of unit selection: What do you think looks cooler?

Really, again? Stop trolling the tactics sub-forum.
You were just trolling this thread too: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/587057.page

This forum is to discuss tactics. We bring up units to discuss the tactics of each.

Stop trolling.

I replied to you over there, so I’ll just add a little bit here.

There are a lot of units, particularly in the SM army that do a very similar job. They have pro and cons. Better in some aspects, worse in others. It really is a six of one, half a dozen of the other situation. Without knowing every detail of the whole list, of the local meta it’s going to be fielded in, we can’t say definitively that one is better then the other. It’s all opinion and our own personal experience. How you think a units looks is as good a tie breaker as anything else.

Amended: I was out of line. My apologies.