Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/05/behold-every-psychic-power-in-whole-game.html?m=1

If such a link is against forum rules please delete it. But there they are in completeness.

What I would like to direct your attention to dear friends is the Sanctic Daemonology power called Sanctuary. Next I would like you to note that Chaos Space Marines can indeed take it. My thought being that Marines.. or Daemon Princes for that matter who carry the mark of Tzeentch while standing on a skyshield landing pad can have a 2++

Combine this with other psykers using Malific Daemonology to summon copious ammounts of Daemons and you have a summoning circle of great power. Tzeentch war coven at it's finest...
Thousand Sons might finally be able to do something meaningful since they don't even need the pad.

The best part is that those same sorcerors can generate D strength blasts from the Sanctic tree as well. Depending on the level of escalation in your current meta this could be game breaking.

Thoughts?

 Iyandenseer wrote:
http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/05/behold-every-psychic-power-in-whole-game.html?m=1

If such a link is against forum rules please delete it. But there they are in completeness.

What I would like to direct your attention to dear friends is the Sanctic Daemonology power called Sanctuary. Next I would like you to note that Chaos Space Marines can indeed take it. My thought being that Marines.. or Daemon Princes for that matter who carry the mark of Tzeentch while standing on a skyshield landing pad can have a 2++

Combine this with other psykers using Malific Daemonology to summon copious ammounts of Daemons and you have a summoning circle of great power. Tzeentch war coven at it's finest...
Thousand Sons might finally be able to do something meaningful since they don't even need the pad.

The best part is that those same sorcerors can generate D strength blasts from the Sanctic tree as well. Depending on the level of escalation in your current meta this could be game breaking.

Thoughts?

Grey Knights with 15 power dice for a rather standard build to screw with your casting, a bevy of anti-daemon rules, and mindstrike missiles say hi.

Mark of Tzeentch caps at 3+, and Daemon Princes don't get the mark anyway (they get "Daemon of...").

I seem to recall there's an equivalent to Sanctuary in the Malific tree too (which won't cause your Daemons to take dangerous terrain tests or whatever the other part of the spell does), so the CSM aren't necessary IMO, just take Chaos Daemons (reduced chance of perils) to summon more Daemons.

Mark caps at 3+ until sanctuary gives it another +1 for a 2+

Problem is it's not the primaris, they need to get the random power, any doubles is a perils unless it's GK, and the mishap table is brutal. The sorcerer will probably be dead from perils on turn 2 or 3.

GK attempting the power on allies th/ss termies or crusader henchmen would eliminate the perils problem, but they still have to get the power and volume of fire still works.

DA's might start using Ezekiel more with a chance to roll for Vortex of Doom.

I wouldn't worry about Skyshield Daemon Princes being a thing. A lot of it is based on lucky rolls to even get the power in the first place and I'd almost rather have iron arm and these would take away from your Biomancy rolls. What the heck is he gonna do from up there anyway, have a tea party?

Looks awesome. Ha Ha, FU tau, necrons, nids and orks.

With the new unbound selection you could take a great deal more chaos sorcerors. Attatch as many as you like to a blob squad of either thousand sons or Tzeentch marines. For extra flavor run Ahriman so you can infiltrate the whole group onto the pad midfield for central supremacy. Suddenly you can get multiple copies of any power you want. Let the big guys roll biomancy, they deserve it. I'm thinking Chaos Sorcerors for Sanctic and Tzeentch Heralds for Malific.

Bar the great knight counter tactic, which if you were discouraged that a revenant titan could be killed by drop podding meltas you'd never run any list because there's a hard counter, this list is mostly immune to shooting. Volume of fire can definitely do the trick..

So that's where the Daemon princes and Greater Daemons that you spawn come in, especially if you throw some cultists up there as sacrificial lambs. Imagine a large group of Flying Monstrous Creatures Spawning from the pad and intercepting anything that tries to get close enough.

Now granted, you could just spam as many mastery levels as possible and summon more Daemons, but the idea of a sanctified summoning circle for a cult not only seems to go along fluffily with spell casting in the real world, but also creates one tough nut to crack right in the center of the table.

In light of how much stupid we're about to see, probably not the end of the world... But far greater than any list I've ever seen, and the fact that I came up with this day one kind of worries me about how much the power level might have just escalated.

Personally I run Eldar in tournaments and Eldrad with Sanctic backed up by Farseers for Fate and Divination and Spiritseers for Invisibility on a blob squad of guardians everyone's attatched to and war walkers in support sounds like another great way to achieve psychic mastery.

Why are you laughing at us?
Yea, simple psychics got better, but cheese-psyker (like "prescience engine ML1 spam" got nerfed, and you can even resist blessings now.

Psyker powers didn't get ANY better, they got more balanced.

And as said for sanctuary, that trick, not only is it luck dependent-it also gets you nowhere.

And yes, everyone can generate S: D, but for everyone but GK its a freaing huge risk as a 3WP power that any double generates a brutal peril-and even if you don't double, but fail, its still a brutal peril.
Its also point-blank, HARD to pull off, will attracts tons of deny dice if you pull it off, and even for GK's "lots of psyker power available", it will drain ALOT of the army's psyker power to reliably cast-meaning less force weapons and the likes, and only libbies will get a chance of even getting it.

With enough power dice I suspect it will be possible to resist those with lesser psychic power, this I am unsure of. Even if I'm sending sorcerors and cultists to their graves left and right I still have a midfield super fortification, strong midrange fire from the blob, point defense D blasts and swathes of Daemons pouring out from my highly defended center position.

I won't continue saying it's the end of the world, that's more the attention grabber. But I feel that this list is tournament worthy at the least.

Continuing with the Eldar example, imagine a farseer with the spirit stones of Anath'lan using Sanctic and casting vortex of doom for only one warp charge right after being teleported via gate of infinity.

Its a range 12 attack, people can get from "out of range" to "in melee" in a turn, with non-assault units.

And as said, it causes perils, ALOT. how many sorcerers you think you will HAVE to throw them attempting to cast it? its NOT a good power, at all. WAY too likely to kill the user.

In Apocalypse it kills the user by default. I'll only need to cast it once or twice and that's the lifespan of the caster.

especially if he has a jump pack to deliver it down their throats on the approach.

Plus this is without knowing what factors cause modifiers on psychic dice. Straight 4+ is silly, I've heard rumors it was based on comparative mastery level or some such. So psychic power might be better than you give it credit for..

Well played on mind strike missiles... but I can turn cultists into heralds and heralds into bloodthirsters.. who get an awesome save before leaping down to destroy you

No comparative anything. only rumor is that some models gets a bonus for casting (suspected to be T demons rule), but mastery levels-as a fact-give no bonus to the cast attempt.

It mostly IS 4+, that's why level 3 powers are insanly hard to cast, and require TONS of dice to work, that means that with demonology, unless you are the one army that ignores the mega-perils (demons for malfic, GK for santic) they are guano crazy to be cast.

4 x lvl 2 Heral
1x Big daemon bird
4 x 16 Pink horrors
6 x screamer
1 x DP

26 +d6 warp pool dice
..about 75% chance (with 30 dices and counted without the opponents chance to deny) to summon 50 daemons per turn....hilarious

How did you figure 75% to get a level 3 power to work 5 times?

I mean, you need 6 dice just to get a 50% in a single casting. (unless they get the rumored bonus)

 BoomWolf wrote:
How did you figure 75% to get a level 3 power to work 5 times?

I mean, you need 6 dice just to get a 50% in a single casting. (unless they get the rumored bonus)

Pls, give me formula you are using, i probably made some basic mistake.(or maybe you made one, anyway I would like to see it)

Thx

You need 3 success, each success is on a 4+

Meaning, if you spend 6 dice on each cast, as you did in your example, each cast has 67.625% to work (dont ask calculation, I use an automated calculator for these things)

On the other hand you get 22% each cast will cause a peril, or multiple perils.

BOLS did a shole calculation of it before, if you want a quick reference of how many dice give what chance on what power:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/05/40k-editorial-new-edition-is-dead-long.html

Do note, these are BEFORE deny attempts, who might screw you over, especially if the enemy is also psyker-heavy. (would be amusing to see two T demon lists duke it out, or two nids)

 BoomWolf wrote:
You need 3 success, each success is on a 4+

Meaning, if you spend 6 dice on each cast, as you did in your example, each cast has 67.625% to work (dont ask calculation, I use an automated calculator for these things)

On the other hand you get 22% each cast will cause a peril, or multiple perils.

BOLS did a shole calculation of it before, if you want a quick reference of how many dice give what chance on what power:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/05/40k-editorial-new-edition-is-dead-long.html

Do note, these are BEFORE deny attempts, who might screw you over, especially if the enemy is also psyker-heavy. (would be amusing to see two T demon lists duke it out, or two nids)

Thank you very much! I really appreciate this, I have headache from calculations !

So the chance would be better if we used 7 dice for one summoning...(77%) thats 4 warp charge powers with 28 dices

I believe you can only ever 6 dice it.

I know no such limit, but as I have yet to HOLD a book, it might be true.

In any case, even when casting 4 summoning spells at 28 warp points (still a hell lot) still means only about 3 will fire off, and 1 or 2 will peril. NOT a very effective way to go, as it eats all the warp points you could use to witchfire everything to death, and the points to actually get these many, are just as easily spent on actually bringing the summoned units.

Draigo + 28 Solodins at 1850

A whole lot of holocaust and a whole lot of denial.

So with lists being unbound, how many people will even be taking psykers at all? Stacking your power like this for warp cheese sounds intense with little chance of opposition unless you're fighting GKs.

Stacking psykers is a bad move, they get diminishing returns due to the only 1d6 natural dice.

Having a unit that HAPPENS to be a psyker, while being useful regardless-now THATS a plan. 1K sons, nearly playable. (now with 2 powers on sorc, and can fuel HQ sorcs)

Like GKs and Zoanthropes.

 ductvader wrote:
Draigo + 28 Solodins at 1850

A whole lot of holocaust and a whole lot of denial.

It's looking like GK codex powers are getting replaced by Santic, so perhaps no holocaust

 Exergy wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Draigo + 28 Solodins at 1850

A whole lot of holocaust and a whole lot of denial.

It's looking like GK codex powers are getting replaced by Santic, so perhaps no holocaust

There's still time until the new GK codex drops.

One thing this does change a lot is entry level games and combat patrol. Now a low level psyker isn't an auto include. You don't have the power dice on hand to reliably cast anything and perils will be a death sentence. If you roll 2 on the perils table your level 1 libby (as an example) is flat out screwed. And your going to watch him probably get obliterated by something silly now like a pistol shot from a scout squad or sum sh!t

Demoted he is now little more than a marine sgt with a ps

The diminishing returns concept is quite disheartening.

I disagree with the assertion that a single ML1 psyker is a poor choice, as it is the most cost efficient way to get the most warp charge for that power and a cheap form of psychic defense. Even more an auto include.

For Tzeentch armies it seems to be an easy task to pile on psychic mastery. Personally, I will be attempting to keep up with the Eldar, the first big game I have planned for this edition is a psyker battle against our local Tzeentch player.

I definitely agree that psychic units without a need to actually cast powers are a powerful boon for a psychic deathstar. Personally I'm considering windrider squads with a warlock in reserve that hide out of sight and only activate conceal when it's necessary to surge forth adding an additional "natural" power boost.

How would you feel about an Eldar unbound army that took a guardian blob and as many farseers on jetbikes as possible with possibly Eldrad included. Gate of infinity is cast, because they finally took it out of the garbage discipline that it was in and put it with some good powers, and the guardian blob with attached seers is suddenly on your doorstep with bladestorm and witchfire. Next the seer council detaches into it's own unit while the guardians plus grandmaster Jedi continue on their own and wreak havok while those windrider squads take objectives and contribute to the warp charge pool.

Honestly it would probably overtake the Tzeentch skyshield.. maybe

Can you blow up the skyshield?

i imagine in 7th they might allow it, since in 6th one of the dumbest rule loopholes on that thing was it was technically indestructible since it had no armor value or anything to gauge how strong it was.

For 75pts, its way too powerful. Even if all they do is make it collapsible but leave the rest, i'd be fine with it lol.