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If they make the game more "fun" to play, and fix a lot of the rules problems, just tweaks here and there, I think it will be a lot better for all of us. The game has been in a bad state, and until everything is on the same field, it's still going to be a mess. They have to show us they are willing to make it better. If 5th comes out soon, that is a sign. If they put FAQs out soon after, then we know they care

I have so much obsolete lead sitting in tubs it ain't funny.
My squats (both epic and 40k) are sitting next to my zoats (both 40k and fantasy) and fimir. But even all the stuff that I have that has been marked obsolete from GW pales in comparison to the minis from games that I have that have went out of business. In that regard, there is absolutely nothing I can do.

see.. that's the rub... this new CSM list is not -fun- to play in any way shape or form.

period.

Eldar are not fun to play against. Neither are Tyranids really.

I haven't played Chaos in the new form, and only played against it a bit in the current and previous. Other than hating Plague Marines so hard, I haven't seen a great change in function. I have seen a big dip in options in the characters going from old version to new version. And obviously the specialty lists go away, and the daemons are not very good anymore. I think GW made a mistake in how they handled the Codexes. Doesn't bother me; I don't have the models, and my only interaction with them involves making them roll armor saves.

Now, say they take Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters, combine them into one Codex, and make Sisters of Battle a 0-2 troop choice, make Acts of Faith a minor ability, and remove Penitent Engines, Repentia and Exorcists while making the new basic troop type Storm Troopers. I would spend a few hours considering how to wrap my models around some C4 before I got to the denial and acceptance stages. Even if some time later they released a sister codex that sort of made them playable again, I would be pissed.

See, it isn't just about changing the rules or fluff or removing the usefulness of models. All those can be unpleasant, and are really bad when they do them all at once. It is also partly the delivery. If they had released a few codexes together for Chaos, completely reworking the way they function but keeping all the units etc. intact (as they claim they are doing, sort of) people would still be a little unhappy, but it would have gone over a lot better. Instead, they seemed to break the pact of "We won't make your expensive investment obsolete" with the new Chaos Codex, and offered a weak promise that you would be able to use your differentiated daemons effectively in a new, possibly allied army.

So before you tell people angry that their army was changed significantly to "suck it up", consider seriously the larger scale problem of losing a few hundred to a few thousand dollars of investment the moment a new codex comes out. Sure, it "maybe" will be ok later, but if someone sold you a car, then took the wheels back a few months later saying "Well, we will sell you better wheels in a few more months" you would be pretty ticked too.

I'm assuming that Chaos Space Marines will be able to have these as allies correct? A La Space Marines and Witch Hunters/Daemon Hunters/Imperial Guard.

Nope. Allies are gone. GW's new vision is that all codeci are self-contained. Well, you can ally in APOC games, I guess, but then you can ally anything at that level.

I do not like GW invalidating armies or models. It is not fair to their customers, and people should be rightfully angry.

Overall, I do like the approach they're currently taking. It just seems like there are some real growing pains as they try to balance things out.

Unfortunately, this is like American politics. Every few years, someone new is in charge, has their own ideas, adn changes course. Maybe Jervis hangs in there and institutes enough policy change to prevent that from happening, but my fear is that in a few years, he'll be gone and Phil Kelly (or someone else) will be running things and push their own vision.

It appears GW is taking a more 'business' approach to 40k. Regular codeci, so no more 'orks are 10 years out of date'. No half-baked rules or army lists. Full support for an army.

As Yak has said, the crime isn't that GW took away the Legions rules, the crime is that they made them at all and that they continue to support five varieties of loyalist marines (well, 6 if you count Grey Knights).

In the long run, I think the game will be better off. For right now, it really stinks to be a LatD or EC player.

dietrich wrote:
I do not like GW invalidating armies or models. It is not fair to their customers, and people should be rightfully angry.

.

Why should they be angry?? How long do you expect to play with the same codex?? ALL your life?? Be relistic, its not as if they invalidate the codex's every year.
People complain when codex are invalid due to new ones and then some people complain when they are not re done in a timely manner.

Gw cant win, maybe they should put a bullet in thier head and mine so we wont have to hear the same crap over and over and over again.

Maybe we should do a sticky with all these same arguments so people can go and read those instead of posting them again and again

Blackheart666 wrote:

Salvation122 wrote:

Easy E wrote:

gorgon wrote:Rumors say they're including Doombreed and Foulspawn from that list in the new codex, so it seems almost spiteful that they wouldn't include Cultists or Mutants to throw LatD players a bone.

Gw is NEVER spiteful of its own customers. Just ask Squat players.

TEN FRAKKING YEARS

MOVE ON

HBMC wrote:'Generic Daemons' are a directed insult towards Chaos players who have been playing Chaos for years

GW HATES YOU HBMC

YOU, PERSONALLY

GENERIC DAEMONS ARE THERE SPECIFICALLY TO TICK YOU OFF

THEY'RE ALL LAUGHING AT YOU

Jesus wept but you guys take this STUFF too seriously

so.. when are the mods coming down on this joker? "In the interest of a shinier and happier Dakka".

We’re not coming down on him because while he did respond to spurious ideas with disbelief and impatience, he did not resort to personal insults. (Though the profanity was out of line and is being edited).

Claiming that GW is “spiteful” towards its customers, or makes design decisions as “directed insult”s to players, are just silly statements, and are ideas meriting disbelief and impatience.

We are making an effort to make Dakka a friendlier place, but it does need to be a place where ideas can be given meaningful critique and feedback, whether positive or negative.

----------------------------

Many consumer products regularly become outmoded or “useless”. Planned obsolescence is the strategy of many manufacturers, especially of non-essential products. I’d like to strongly advise anyone who thinks GW did a mean thing by discontinuing support for Squats to never, ever buy any form of entertainment electronics. How many people had extensive music libraries on cassette? Or movie libraries on videocassette? How many computers has each of us owned in the last 15 years?

Heck, I had trouble recently finding replacement heads for the brush I use to scrub my toilet. The manufacturer came out with a new model and my regular supermarket only carries the new one now. I had to go to (shudder) Wal-Mart to get the old ones.

By comparison with many products, miniatures are paragons of durability and value retention. While “counts as” is certainly not as good as a list of their own, Squats CAN still be fielded in games by using the rules for other armies, with a little creativity and the occasional conversion. IG rules are the most common, but a friend of mine built a new squat army just a couple of years ago using SM rules:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery.jsp?gid=7

The army above is a tournament-legal army. If you’re not worried about tournaments you can easily make/adapt your own rules to use with friends. And you’ll have a lot more success than I will if I bring any of my old vinyl albums over to a friend’s house and all they have is a CD player.

As Beef asked (hey, Beef made a good point!), how long do you expect something to be kept the same? Forever? Products DO need to be updated and revised to drive sales, and some stuff is going to fall by the wayside completely. Some other stuff is just going to change in a way that’s unappealing to some current owners. That’s pretty much inevitable.

Toreador also made the very valid point that you wind up with a lot MORE “useless” miniatures if a game company goes under and none of its armies or rules are supported anymore.

Could GW do a better job of running the company? Could they make better decisions for the business? Very likely.

Could they do a better job of supporting the game, and of giving us what we want? Certainly.

That isn’t to say they could ever make all the complaints go away. Other people have noted that many complaints are contradictory. People who found the old C: CSM overpowered or annoyingly complex love the new one. People who play purely in competitive tournaments, or who enjoyed playing with the funky different options, are frustrated by it. Many complaints about GW genuinely do come down to personal taste, and GW’s always going to make somebody unhappy.

In other areas, such as clearer writing and more consistent FAQ support, they really are letting down most of their customers, and they simply need to improve.

Personally I’m not in favor of what they did with Daemons in the new codex. I think it was a poor treatment and a wasted opportunity. As a Chaos player I still enjoy the new codex, but I certainly don’t enjoy it as much as I would have with some slightly better (and more importantly more varied) daemons. But that doesn’t mean I think they were trying to insult me, or that I’m going to melt down or sell my Daemonettes, Furies, or Bloodletters. They had value when I bought them, I got some mileage out of them already, and they still have value now.

Wehrkind wrote:Now, say they take Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters, combine them into one Codex,

If you look at how GW organizes their catalogs and lists, there's now a combined, catch-all category called "Inquisistion" - guess what's going to happen towards the end of 5th Edition...

If they had released a few codexes together for Chaos,

they seemed to break the pact of "We won't make your expensive investment obsolete"

Totally unnecessary - the CSM book allows the player to create the essence of any of the previous armies, just at a more balanced power level.

There are very few "investments" that were rendered obsolete. For those very few who actually lost model support, they got a few years of playing those models at the highest power level available, so they really shouldn't complain. It's like complaining that you got to live like a rock star and be married to a supermodel for a few years before the royalties stopped and the marriage was annulled. I'm supposed to feel bad that the gravy train stopped?

So before you tell people angry that their army was changed significantly to "suck it up", consider seriously the larger scale problem of losing a few hundred to a few thousand dollars of investment the moment a new codex comes out.

The idea that these things are somehow perpetual "investment" is kind of silly in a game system that is known to change the base ruleset every 5 years or so. Players should look at their armies as an investment in terms of the raw materials. But they should also account for usage on a pay-to-play basis. If you get 3 years of use out of any army or model, you've gotten your money's worth and the rest is gravy.

If you go the full 5, or multiple editions, so much the better. But then you're probably not building a WAAC army, so you're more future-proofed.

if someone sold you a car, then took the wheels back a few months later saying "Well, we will sell you better wheels in a few more months" you would be pretty ticked too.

If I bought a sports car several years ago when the price of gas was $1/gal, and now the price of gas goes up over $3/gal, how am I entitled to demand that automakers replace my gas-guzzler with a shiny econobox? Did I not get many years of good usage out of the car before the price changed?

If I bought an analog TV 15+ years ago, before the US went digital, am I entitled to demand a new TV from Sony?

No. I "suck it up" in the real world, and deal with the change. In the mean time, I get good usage out of my stuff, and that's the essence of fairness.

Mannahnin wrote:

Blackheart666 wrote:

so.. when are the mods coming down on this joker? "In the interest of a shinier and happier Dakka".

We’re not coming down on him because while he did respond to spurious ideas with disbelief and impatience, he did not resort to personal insults. (Though the profanity was out of line and is being edited).

Claiming that GW is “spiteful” towards its customers, or makes design decisions as “directed insult”s to players, are just silly statements, and are ideas meriting disbelief and impatience.

We are making an effort to make Dakka a friendlier place, but it does need to be a place where ideas can be given meaningful critique and feedback, whether positive or negative.

then I'm calling you and Iorek and Yakface out for BS right now.

Your "happier shinier dakka" is no more than "fanboys rule" so you can get a bone from GW.

Mannahnin wrote:Heck, I had trouble recently finding replacement heads for the brush I use to scrub my toilet.

[H.B.M.C.] You can use Codex: CSM and Datasheet: Lost and the Damned!!! [/H.B.M.C.]

By comparison with many products, miniatures are paragons of durability and value retention. While “counts as” is certainly not as good as a list of their own,

Why not? The minis are still playable, so what's the problem? If everything had to be so narrow and exactly modeled, we wouldn't be able to convert or substitute. That would suck.

As Beef asked, how long do you expect something to be kept the same? Forever? Products DO need to be updated and revised to drive sales, and some stuff is going to fall by the wayside completely. Some other stuff is just going to change in a way that’s unappealing to some current owners. That’s pretty much inevitable.

Toreador also made the very valid point that you wind up with a lot MORE “useless” miniatures if a game company goes under and none of its armies or rules are supported anymore.

Thankfully, I have relatively little minis in this category, precisely because I didn't do too much non-GW / fad gaming. But I've got boxes of CCG and RPG that hardly see any play. GW and WotC should be commended for their general efforts at keeping things playable in some fashion or other.

Note that playable isn't the same as Tier 1 Competitive. If you're expecting that your army will stay Tier 1 Competitive from now until the end of time, have I got a bridge to sell you!

People who found the old C: CSM overpowered or annoyingly complex love the new one.

What if we just found it pointlessly restrictive and unnecessarily over-optioned?

There were a lot more reasons to dislike the old C: CSM.

Personally I’m not in favor of what they did with Daemons in the new codex. I think it was a poor treatment and a wasted opportunity. As a Chaos player I still enjoy the new codex, but I certainly don’t enjoy it as much as I would have with some slightly better (and more importantly more varied) daemons.

Actually, I rather like the change because I understand their motivation. If they didn't homogenize the Daemons in C: CSM, then the focus isn't as clearly on the CSM. That makes it harder to sell C: Daemons. And its' the same reason why there aren't Legions in C: CSM, and why Icons are tied to a single model. This way, GW can sell C: WE, C: EC, C: TS, and C: DG at a later date, to possibly be followed by C: LatD far down the road. Each Codex having a tighter focus on specific aspect allows for more differentiation between the various flavors of Chaos. If you really look at it more carefully, GW has done a fantastic job of laying down a foundation for Chaos for decades to come. GW really seized the opportunity to rework Chaos properly, but you'll have to wait at least 5 years to see it in final form.

JohnHwangDD wrote:[H.B.M.C.] You can use Codex: CSM and Datasheet: Lost and the Damned!!! [/H.B.M.C.]

Some people are naturally gifted when it comes to humour. You, John, are not one of these people.

BTW, I have your room all made up at the Charity for the Terminally Stupid. Just get your key for Toraedor when you come into the main entrance hall, salute the Ozymandis statue we have there, and we'll get to work on making you less of an IQ sink.

BYE

HBMC, when I post in this thread that someone didn't draw a moderator action specifically because he didn't personally insult you, what do you think is going to happen when you immediately turn around and personally insult someone?

The last time you were warned was back in October, and it is the holidays, so I was tempted to just make it a warning. But you have been warned before, and the slams at Toreador and Ozymandius were just gratuitous, so you're getting a temporary suspension.

Blackheart666 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

Blackheart666 wrote:

so.. when are the mods coming down on this joker? "In the interest of a shinier and happier Dakka".

We’re not coming down on him because while he did respond to spurious ideas with disbelief and impatience, he did not resort to personal insults. (Though the profanity was out of line and is being edited).

Claiming that GW is “spiteful” towards its customers, or makes design decisions as “directed insult”s to players, are just silly statements, and are ideas meriting disbelief and impatience.

We are making an effort to make Dakka a friendlier place, but it does need to be a place where ideas can be given meaningful critique and feedback, whether positive or negative.

then I'm calling you and Iorek and Yakface out for BS right now.

Your "happier shinier dakka" is no more than "fanboys rule" so you can get a bone from GW.

If that's your perception of this forum, then that's your perception.

I think if you honestly compare it to any other forum on the web, you're going to have trouble defending that statement.

If you don't find the forum useful and entertaining, or if you have an objection to the way it's run, please feel free to submit constructive criticism and feedback.

Or don't read it.

So getting back on track, any who hates their chaos armies want to sell me there current deamonettes or bloodletters. This new codex might be fun to play with but I am certainly not going to try it with those really ugly demonettes. (I think someone copied the face from the new VC vamp chick)

Basically what it is is that if you love GW, and bitch about the people who complain about GW, you're fine. But if you don't like GW, and get annoyed when fanboys can't come up with anything intelligent to refute your arguments, we get banned...

BYE

Now, now, Dakka isn't that *other* forum of sweetness and light... If it were, you'd have been permabanned for saying something mean.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Basically what it is is that if you love GW, and bitch about the people who complain about GW, you're fine. But if you don't like GW, and get annoyed when fanboys can't come up with anything intelligent to refute your arguments, we get banned...

BYE

If you or anyone else for that matter, dislikes GW that much then quit the damn game! Sale your stuff on Ebay and go play Warmachine. Why complain and bag on people who acutally enjoy 40k?

Khaosbob, that has been suggested umpteen times in the past, people like their right to rant and complain, logic won't stop that.

Blackheart666 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

Blackheart666 wrote:

so.. when are the mods coming down on this joker? "In the interest of a shinier and happier Dakka".

We’re not coming down on him because while he did respond to spurious ideas with disbelief and impatience, he did not resort to personal insults. (Though the profanity was out of line and is being edited).

Claiming that GW is “spiteful” towards its customers, or makes design decisions as “directed insult”s to players, are just silly statements, and are ideas meriting disbelief and impatience.

We are making an effort to make Dakka a friendlier place, but it does need to be a place where ideas can be given meaningful critique and feedback, whether positive or negative.

then I'm calling you and Iorek and Yakface out for BS right now.

Your "happier shinier dakka" is no more than "fanboys rule" so you can get a bone from GW.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Blackheart666. We are most certainly not "pro-fanboy" as you seem to think; I just sold a Lost and the Damned army for about 1/5th of retail that I'd spent several years working on only to have it become mostly illegal. Definitely NOT happy with Games Workshop on that. The shinier, happier Dakka refers to how the posters comport themselves, not their attitude about the game. I love a good argument here; it's the bad arguments that we have to shut down. Iv'e noticed lately that many in the very "pro-GW" camp have been personally insulted, which may seem like a bias on our part. I assure you it is not.

At some level, though, everyone here likes at least one of the Games Workshop games, most likely Warhammer 40k, or they wouldn't be here to begin with. If they genuinely have no interest in any of the subjects that Dakka covers, then I can't imagine why they'd be here.

As always, you can PM a mod if you don't like how something has been handled.

JohnHwangDD wrote:[H.B.M.C.] You can use Codex: CSM and Datasheet: Lost and the Damned!!! [/H.B.M.C.]

Try using that at an RTT. Heck, try using it against some of the more anal-retentive players at your FLGS.

Fact of the matter is that Lost and the Damned players got screwed. I know, I was one of 'em. Yeah, it's a bit of a sore spot with me.

Iorek wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:[H.B.M.C.] You can use Codex: CSM and Datasheet: Lost and the Damned!!! [/H.B.M.C.]

Try using that at an RTT. Heck, try using it against some of the more anal-retentive players at your FLGS.

Given that the context was as a replacement head for the toilet brush, I appreciate the "anal-retentive" bit on your reply.

Iorek wrote:I just sold a Lost and the Damned army for about 1/5th of retail that I'd spent several years working on

I'm sorry, but I have to say that was a bit short-sighted. I'd have held on to it until at least 1 full edition passes. You never know what GW is going to bring back...

Of course, you never know *how* it'll come back, either. :(

I was following the RT-era Fluff for a (non-Psyker, non-Termie) Grey Knights army, only to find them totally redone in C: DH. Scratch that and enter the Knights Sovereign.

KhaosBob wrote:If you or anyone else for that matter, dislikes GW that much then quit the damn game! Sale your stuff on Ebay and go play Warmachine. Why complain and bag on people who acutally enjoy 40k?

That really is a very silly thing to say Bob.

I actually love 40K. I love Necromunda even more. I just think GW are a bunch of hopeless morons who wouldn't know a good rulset if it came up and bit them in the face. More than that I really hate the vocal and vacant parts of the community that seem to lap up everything they do as though it was a gift from the Emperor Himself, and I have no hesitations when it comes to showing my contempt for such people. I take it too far from time to time as we can see from Mannenhiem's angry red post, but the end of the day I just want GW to be successful company with a fantastic set of rules.

Of course, their goals and my wishes are incongruent. They want to sell models, and don't seem to give a damn who they trample on in the process.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Wehrkind wrote:Now, say they take Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters, combine them into one Codex,

If you look at how GW organizes their catalogs and lists, there's now a combined, catch-all category called "Inquisistion" - guess what's going to happen towards the end of 5th Edition...

Yea... let me tell you how excited I am about that... I think the rules could use some tweaking to make some of the units better, but I am really nervous.

If they had released a few codexes together for Chaos,

they seemed to break the pact of "We won't make your expensive investment obsolete"

Totally unnecessary - the CSM book allows the player to create the essence of any of the previous armies, just at a more balanced power level.

Wehrkind wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Totally unnecessary - the CSM book allows the player to create the essence of any of the previous armies, just at a more balanced power level.

I am not talking about balance of power. If they had taken Daemonettes and say dropped their number of attacks, or their initiative, or raised points or something, people would be a lot less unhappy. People would whine and complain, don't get me wrong; they always do. But to say "Heh, actually, they don't exist." That bothers people after buying all those expensive metal models. These people now have to fill out entire chunks of army with new minis.

That is completely NOT true. You are talking about power, pure and simple. You're only complaining because Daemonettes (whatever) lost their Speshul r00lz. The idea that the don't exist flies in the face of the entry for Summoned Lesser Daemons, not to mention Codex: Daemons coming next year. The idea that people can't continue to field their models as Summoned Lesser Daemons is totally false.

Now, it is true that they may not like the homogenizing of Lesser Daemons within the CHAOS MARINE book, nor the removal of Chaos Marines for the CHAOS DAEMON book. But that is a far cry from saying that the option was removed entirely.

There are very few "investments" that were rendered obsolete. For those very few who actually lost model support, they got a few years of playing those models at the highest power level available, so they really shouldn't complain. It's like complaining that you got to live like a rock star and be married to a supermodel for a few years before the royalties stopped and the marriage was annulled. I'm supposed to feel bad that the gravy train stopped?

Do you feel bad when your grandmother's pension suddenly stops getting paid? This isn't a gravy train, these are not mini's that were distributed for free, and it has very little to do with power level. These are figures that players spent years collecting and painting, spending a good bit of cash and time on them.

Did the miniatures that one purchased suddenly turn into fairy dust upon the release of the new Codex? No. Does the Codex has a mechanism for fielding them? Yes. Was the previous combination grossly overpowered compared to the current direction of the game? Unquestionably. Did players field them knowing full well that they had a "free" rules advantage over their opponents? Definitely. So do they have any right to complain when that free advantage stops? Nope.

The idea that these things are somehow perpetual "investment" is kind of silly in a game system that is known to change the base ruleset every 5 years or so. Players should look at their armies as an investment in terms of the raw materials. But they should also account for usage on a pay-to-play basis. If you get 3 years of use out of any army or model, you've gotten your money's worth and the rest is gravy.

If you go the full 5, or multiple editions, so much the better. But then you're probably not building a WAAC army, so you're more future-proofed.

If I bought a sports car several years ago when the price of gas was $1/gal, and now the price of gas goes up over $3/gal, how am I entitled to demand that automakers replace my gas-guzzler with a shiny econobox? Did I not get many years of good usage out of the car before the price changed?

If I bought an analog TV 15+ years ago, before the US went digital, am I entitled to demand a new TV from Sony?

No. I "suck it up" in the real world, and deal with the change. In the mean time, I get good usage out of my stuff, and that's the essence of fairness.

Your sports car example is inapplicable, as is your TV example; it isn't some uncontrolled 3rd party changing the value of the figures like your gas price. It is GW arbitrarily changing their stance and rules.

And your point is what, exactly? That GW is somehow beholden to never change rules? If that is your belief, you are sadly mistaken. 40k has been in near constant flux for nearly a decade, with a flurry of rules that did, and didn't work. To assume that somehow the 40k3.5 Chaos Codex is somehow graven in stone is nonsense.

Essentially what people are upset about is that there is supposed to be an environment of trust, where GW won't drastically change rules and armies just to get us to buy new minis. Units can change and be rebalanced, and new ones added, but in theory there shouldn't be big swings in how things work that force players to really remake and rebuy their forces. Especially considering the premium price GW charges. When GW goes and changes things suddenly, it's an issue.

Except that this is what GW does. GW has a well-established pattern of drastically changing power levels precisely to sell minis. Anybody who doesn't see this during an edition change is wearing blinders or in denial thinking it won't happen to them.

The Carnifex was utter crap. Then GW made a nice new plastic model with awesome rules and available as Elite in addition to Heavy. Next thing we know, guys are fielding a half-dozen of them.

The old Wraithlord was made of awesome and win, and a trio of them was just fielded very frequently. With 4th Edition and the new Codex, he's crap because nobody needs to buy any more of them. The Falcon, however, was totally neglected in 3rd Edition, and the Fire Prism unplayable. GW reworked Holofields specifically to sell lots of Grav-tanks, and look what happened.

And then there was Apocalypse. Wow, did the new rules help to sell Baneblades! Larger 10" blast and reduced cost compared to Forgeworld Imperial Armour? Yes, please! Even HBMC, who hates GW, has 5 of the things!

Like I said, if they had released Codexaemons and Codex:CSM at the same time and made them alliable, one would see a tenth of this unhappiness with the daemon situation. But as it is GW went from saying "Hey, build your armies around the possibilities in this book" to "Ok, build very different armies based around this book!" That does not engender comfort in the way things work, and creates uncertainty that the time and cash you spend on your minis is at all worth it.
If GW wants that to be the way it is, fine, but don't tell us they won't invalidate armies or units, then do so.

Except that NO Daemons were invalidated. NO mixed Marine-Daemon armies were invalidated. They are still playable (together) as Summoned Greater Daemons, Summoned Lesser Daemons or Chaos Spawn. As I've noted above, your complaints are entirely power-related. You don't get uber Daemons when you also take Marines. You have to choose what kind of army you want to field.

As for uncertainty, those minis were fielded with the certainty that the Codex had awesome rules at the time they were purchased. But I don't recall GW giving some perpetual guarantee that Daemons would aways be awesome. If you can show me where this is written, I might be able to garner a smidgen of sympathy for you.

But when we go back to the reality, no such guarantee was ever provided. If you can't accept that your awesome models may not be awesome tomorrow, you simply shouldn't spend your money in this hobby.

And by the way, ever hear the joke "If 40k is too expensive a hobby, there is always golf?" Considering a decent 2000 point army can run you over 1000$ US,

Really?

Hmmm.... I've got a newish Chaos Marine army that weighs in around 2000 pts, so let's see:

2 Daemon Princes = $20 (conversions)
1 Dreadnought = $40
10 Veterans = $35
20 Marines w/ 2 Rhinos = $125
20 Raptors = $100
3 Defilers = $120
misc. bitz = $30

My total is $470 RETAIL. If I bought through the War Store, I'm easily under $400, call it $380.

yes, being able to use it for only 3 years is ridiculous.

After 3 years, I can sell it used for around 50%, or $200. That's a usage cost of $180 total, or $60 per year. $60 per year is $5 per month. To put $5/month in perspective, instead of buying a Big Mac burger combo, I can have a Chaos Marine army for the next 3 years.

To compare with Golf, $60/year barely covers 2 outings, and that's after I bought my clubs. I bought them a while ago, and they set me back over $400.

My computer has stretched itself for 6, will continue to work after I get a new one this month, and is infinitely more functional besides.

You're not a gamer, or you'd know that gaming computers are only good for a couple years if you want to really play the latest games.

My Tv still works perfectly for what I bought it for (DVDs and consoles.) My car is still kicking 11 years later. So considering the only thing other than GW's whimsey that makes mini's useless is breaking them, they should last a hell of a long time.

So then, really, you have nothing to complain about. Your minis last indefinitely, and you still have rules support. Stop complaining.

(And it isn't as though GW said "Hey guys, we are coming out with a new Chaos Codex, so we are pulling the old Codex off the shelves a few months before it hits.)

Hahaha.... Are you saying that you didn't get notice from the previews and rumours?

This thread has wandered off-topic and into unpleasant areas.