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Now that I can agree with. DML's were nice in 2nd Ed when they could fire multiple missiles. Now they're just lame.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:And Extra Armour (where applicable), for +15 points, would give them a 5+(I) save.

BYE

The designers obviously don't think that 5+I will cut it anymore (why they lowered the I save on storm shields)

I think Extra Armour on dreads should be a 2+ invulnerable save.

Read the fluff, they are combat monsters, revered.

I don't think that a squadron is the answer, nor is making them harder to kill.

Just lower the price so that they are worth taking...

Squadrons would be helpful in me taking them, drop pods, as I could then run my 3 furiosos and 3 regular dreads in my BA force and still take 2 units of CCW scouts in elites and 2 whirlwinds in HS. Of course pea it would require that whirlwinds be in squadrons to, just like apocalypse...

I think though that scouts of any sort, even if elite are much better investment than dreads as they are as you have 10 wounds rather than the 1 potential 'wound' of a dreadnought...

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I think Extra Armour on dreads should be a 2+ invulnerable save.

You can't be serious? You want them to shrug off fully 5/6ths of everything that's thrown at them?

BYE

Yes I'm serious.

Its already been pointed out in this thread that they are way overcosted (ven + drop pod + HF = about chaos land raider)

Dropping the cost would be simply too easy when you can make rules that will corespond with the fluff and rightly elevate dreads to where they should be in the space marine list... ranked up as an unkillable squadron of death.

Funneh.

Av13 would be a simple fix. That combined with the Run rule would be enough. A points drop (20-30, maybe?) would also work.

As discussed many times over the years, replacing the whole AV system for vehicles with everything using the Toughness/Wounds mechanic would be smarter and more consistent. It would also leave plenty of room to add little subrules if needed to give the flavor for different armies. Yakface wrote up a really good set just about two years ago:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/118694.page

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I think Extra Armour on dreads should be a 2+ invulnerable save.

At that rate, it would be folly to take anything else - it would be the toughest model in the game, easily outclassing an AV14 Living Metal Monolith. AV12 is already immune to all small arms fire. Now you're making it effectively immune to Heavy weapons as well.

It is better than any Titan-class Void Shield.

I think this is a poor suggestion.

Agreed 2+ on top of being a vehicle would be a nightmare to deal with. The point cost to justify such an ability would be insane! Marines would have less than a 2% chance of blowing a standard dreadnought up with a Lazcannon. Way over the top.

Gonads is messing with you.

Well that's great, a Mod trolling a Proposed Rules thread. Wonderfully constructive.

BYE

*Shakes fist at Mannahnin in impotent rage*

Grrrrr!

Dreadnaughts should be able to assault out of a drop pod. Who is to say that its not carrying a Vanguard veteran inside?

G

Well if you wanted to have dreadnoughts in squadrons it would only help sm. becuase have a squad of csm dreadnoughts would proove stupid, becuase of there fire frenzy rule. So id say bugger that idea, its only gunna give sm even even more power, which alot of people would get pissed off about.

BDA

apocalipse you have a sheet with 1+ techmarien and 3+ dreads.

And they have Flank March no less. Quite a dangerous formation that.

BYE

and your marines get flank mach not only the formation
my main formation with carfol planing

I don't know about Dreadnaughts, but this would be great for my Ork Deffdreads. That's because whenever I put out just one, it is guaranteed shot-to-pieces on Turn 1. Three would up my survivability nicely. And it isn't as if this isn't expensive - I'd be approaching 300 points for a unit of 3 of these. So I say why not?

Kanz can do it. I think this sort of thing would be a great addition to Standard 40K.

Then just let me get 9 on the table when I fill up all my Heavy Support Choices.

Would Deff Dreadz in squadrons invalidate Kanz though?

BYE

No, why would they?

Spamming dreadnoughts is still the single best tactic in DoW as far as I can see. Just thought I'd add that.

Nurglitch wrote:No, why would they?

A squadron of Kanz... or in the same slot a squadron of tougher better Kanz.

You're not big on the ol' imagination, are you Nurgly?

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:In Apocalypse? Yeah, I can see a Formation of 3+ Dreads led by a Venerable Dread.

But regular 40k? Nah. Not unless you're prepared to allow Wraithlord Squads and Carnifex Broods...

Preach on brother. At AV 12 they are just too immune to basic weapons to be allowable in squads. If they were AV 10 (like every other vehicles available in squads) then it wouldn't be a problem since your basic trooper in just about every army (other than IG) would be able to hurt them. However any army that is made up entirely of units that 85% of armies out there can't hurt with their basic weapons is just broken.

Besides, since dreadnaughts are vehicles, they can't score even if they are troops so an all dread army wouldn't really work.

A squadron of Kanz... or in the same slot a squadron of tougher better Kanz.

You're not big on the ol' imagination, are you Nurgly?

and thats why you shouldnt think about collecting orks.

Kanz are designed for shooting, hence thier semi decent BS, deff dreads are mainly for combat due to increaced WS and 5 attacks (if given 2 CC weps)

you have a choice then, shooty chunk of metal or stompy chunk of metal.

H.B.M.C.:

Hey, nice cheap shot. Sure shows your quality.

But let me address the idea that given the choice between a squadron of Kans and a squadron of Dreds, a player would always choose the latter.

Dreds are not Kans. Kans shoot better than Dreds, cost much less, and can be armed with Grotzookas.

Kans are not Dreds. Dred fight better than Kans, cost much more, and can be taken as Troops choices if a Big Mek is chosen as an HQ.

Different units for different roles.

Really, this rule will only benifit the SM's and Orks what about everyone else? like CSM's who would never have any use for them unless the crazed rule was removed, or wraithlords and so on.

BDA

They could always make separate vehicle rules for Walkers, like their own damage table.

Nurglitch wrote:Hey, nice cheap shot. Sure shows your quality.

Cheapshot? Don't be absurd. Next you'll acuse me of being subtle...

Besides, all you seem to do in the Proposed Rule forum is come in and shoot everybody's ideas down. To put my comment to you in a less inflamatory manner - you seem to have a very hard time thinking outside the box. If it doesn't conform to pre-existing rules, you dismiss it out of hand. I find this behaviour of yours to be extremely strange considering that this is a Proposed Rules forum.

Nurglitch wrote:Dreds are not Kans. Kans shoot better than Dreds, cost much less, and can be armed with Grotzookas.

Kans are not Dreds. Dred fight better than Kans, cost much more, and can be taken as Troops choices if a Big Mek is chosen as an HQ.

Different units for different roles.

And both competing for the same slot equally because one is a Squadron and the other is not. You suddenly give the tougher one squadron ability, and the Kanz tend to get left behind. Who needs to shoot with Kanz anyway? That's what Lootas are for.

I can't see Kanz being able to do anything in an Ork army that other units can't do better or cheaper or both.

BYE

H.B.M.C.:

Surely if you had done creative work yourself you'd know how brainstorming works. First you find a problem, and then you come up with a solution. If there is no problem, then offering a 'solution' isn't 'thinking outside the box', it isn't thinking at all. If I seem overly critical, it's because most people posting on this forum don't appear to put in the groundwork necessary to come up with constructive proposals for rules, mistaking random day-dreaming for analysis and solution.

Take your own insight (or apparent lack thereof) into the use of Kans. You seem to think that a player has the choice of either taking Kans or taking Lootas. That is a false dilemma, because you can take Lootas and Kans, and taking both will enhance your army's shooting more than taking either alone.

Likewise consider the choice between a squadron of Kans and a squadron of Dreds, which I've gone over. You seem unable to consider the relative merits of their characteristics, which make Dreds considerably more effective in combat, but Kans considerably more effective in shooting point for point. While these two units actually do compete for some slots (they don't compete for Troops slots), they don't compete for the same roles so making them both squadrons does not affect their relative merits.

hmmm, some good points...

...but why not solve all the problems...

...and just collect craftworld eldar?