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One thing I am wondering about is whether or not we'll see tougher Guard commanders. Marine commanders all of the sudden get WS6 for being legendary pricks, so maybe we'll get see the HSO with WS5 in the new codex.

Guard Commanders aren't very 'lead from the front' type people. Isn't it better if they're not HTH monsters?



Anyway, BoLS is reporting the new Baneblade kit will have 5 different variants in there. I think we're looking at Shadowsword, Stormblade, Stormsword, the thingy from the Apoc Reload book, and something else.

BYE

Lead from the front. So long as the front's at the rear.

Well, everything is thrown upside down these days and seeing as HSO's are supposed to be the veterans of a thousand campaigns it would be fitting to give him WS 5 to represent his skill at arms after all that campaigning. Or we could be seeing that commissar lord sporting WS 5 instead.

Hey I'll be happy with a Commissar that's worth taking. Let's not get too carried away in the details until then.

BYE

Units, worth taking? I am intrigued by this concept. This is something the IG deserve to get. I'm tired of a codex defined by unexceptional and characterless units. I know someone will say it, "but they're just humans." Most people here will agree there are alot of interesting concepts in the IG background but few get carried over and developed into anything distinguishingly better than cannon fodder.

In an edition of 40k where GW is making everything cheaper (except assault cannons) or more powerful (except Chaplains) they have the opportunity here to make the IG units better if not more interesting. I hope they take it.

With regard to the Vehicle Squadrons....for what it's worth, this tallies with what I've heard over the months to a point. It was (is?) my understanding that the 3 Leman Russ you get as a 'squadron' simply mean you get three to a slot, and they act independantly.

Consider how the rest of the IG work currently. I buy a Heavy Platoon. I get 3 Squads and 1 Command per slot, all of which then count as seperate units.

Of course, this might change to better stymie Kill Point Haemorrage, so that you need to kill all to get the Kill Point, but that doesn't entirely rule out them still acting as seperate entities.

I think the kill point haemorraging is the biggest thing all IG players are look to resolve and like you say with more units being packed together it will only get worse if not addressed.

Depends entirely on how they count them. I mean, Infantry Platoons I can see counting as a single scoring entity in both mission types. Ergo, you have to mash all 45 of them (assuming the op's bit is referring to 45 for 200 being a non negotiable amount!) to get a kill point, but all 45 can only claim a single objective.

The IG kill point situation has really been discussed to death and its really just upto to GW to resolve it. It will be great let down if they just opt to not address it or end up only half way addressing it.

I remember hearing a rumour somewhere some time ago that there talks of GW doing a General Sturnn, complete with lightning claws and built-in bolter.

BrookM wrote:Well, everything is thrown upside down these days and seeing as HSO's are supposed to be the veterans of a thousand campaigns it would be fitting to give him WS 5 to represent his skill at arms after all that campaigning. Or we could be seeing that commissar lord sporting WS 5 instead.

IMO, Guard should stop at WS4 - they're not supposed to be exceptional at HtH. I can see Guard having more Ld to reflect experience, but they're still just humans...

aka_mythos wrote:I'm tired of a codex defined by unexceptional and characterless units. I know someone will say it, "but they're just humans."

But Guard units *should* be basic. That's the point. By definition. Otherwise, the bar gets raised for the entire game, and elite forces look less elite. Guard set the floor for effectiveness.

Now that isn't to say that Guardsmen can't have structures like Platoons to mitigate their ordinariness, Heavy Weapons to kill things, and/or "Doctrines" to address some of their fragility. But the idea that the standard Guardsman would be armed with anything other than the most basic R24" S3 AP- Rapid Fire Lasgun simply isn't workable in the 40k game universe.

After all, if I wanted to play enhanced humans, I can play my Eldar. If I want to play superhuman killing machines, I can play my Marines. But if I want to play basic humans with loads of basic Tanks, then *that* is what Guard is for.

I do agree.

The Guard units should be pretty unremarkable. Remember, they are grunts. There are literally *billions* of others in the Galaxy. Their gear *should* be basic and functional. The special stuff should come from the organisation of the force, they way in interacts with itself. Why should they get Assault Lasguns? Thats not their training, and it's a little advanced. Guardsmen can come from any kind of planet, feral, medieval, right up to future tech. Therefore, there needs to be a unity of equipment. Regimental differences are where it should come in, and dare I say it, should not be optional. For instance, a Regiment raised from a Feral World, to prevent too much culture shock, shouldn't have anything too exotic, but they are likely to be slightyl tastier in HTH. And from a Hive World? Generally being recruited from the Gangs, they should be able to act on initiative, thereby putting less onus on the Chain of Command, perhaps detrimentally. The upside is that they are likely to be *very* familiar with the weapons in their use and so on.

Please, try to stop seeing the IG as a modern army. It's not. It's something of a mix and mash between Napoleonics, WW1 and WW2. IT's less about high speed, tactical incisions against key targets, and more about simply drowning the enemy in a deluge of bodies, blood and blasts!

I highly disagree with both of the last statements. Just because guard are "Just Humans" is the worst excuse ive ever heard on why guard should remain one of the worst armies in the game.

Yes Guard are a Horde army. Nobody is asking for 15 pt guardsmen that are on par statwise with Spaz Marines. Spaz marines are 16 points base, Guard are looking like they will be 4 points base. That means that I should outnumber you at least 4 to 1 if not more on the battlefield. Yay for me! However, this means nothing if they continue to give horrible wargear/weapons for IG. You need to upgrade to bring the army as a whole on par playing wise with everything else so it plays balanced compared to every other army while at the same time makeing the army unique compared to others. Yes that means giveing the army options that other armies dont have. Get used to it.

Are Assault 2 Flashlights really that damn scary and overpowered in your book? "OH no! My Spaz Marines dont have Assault 2 weapons for every troop choice so its unfair!"
Hell I think A Missle Launching tank with that needs no LOS and can ignore cover saves is scary. Do I complain about it? NO! I do my best to kill it asap. "Hey now! You have Bassies that are more powerful!" True, but compare the points cost between the two then come back and complain to me. (85 vs 100+)

"Guardsmen can come from any kind of planet, feral, medieval, right up to future tech. Therefore, there needs to be a unity of equipment." Actually, not so. If this were true then every NATO troop would be armed the exact same way. Yes I just compared it to a real life situation, yes I know this is a game, but this is the only way to make it
clear to some folk out there.

Since Guard come from every walk under the sun thats the exact reason WHY they should have DIFFERENT equipment. Would you really expect a guy on a Death World to be armed and equiped the exact same way as a guy on a Ice World or a guy pulling garrison duty on a orbital platform? Sure there are billions of guard... and I can guarantee that every regament is equiped differently.

"But Guard units *should* be basic. That's the point. By definition. Otherwise, the bar gets raised for the entire game, and elite forces look less elite. Guard set the floor for effectiveness."
So because Spaze Marines need to look good guard should remain crap? Sorry not buying it.

"The idea that the standard Guardsman would be armed with anything other than the most basic R24" S3 AP- Rapid Fire Lasgun simply isn't workable in the 40k game universe."

Disagree. Not only is it workable without changeing the whole game, but it needs to get done. Lasgun Statline has been outdated for years now. It is no longer even on a basic level effective. 20 shots to kill 1 marine is a joke. Do they need to be death ray insta killing lasgun of doom? NO! Just beef them up so that they can actually do something in the game. A crap tastic gun in the hands of a WS3 model doesnt make it better on top of that.

Also what is so wrong with the idea that guard get ONE MODEL with a descent BS or WS? Is it so much to as that our leader is actually good at something other then looking pretty?

A guardsmen should be unremarkable and unexceptional, but I'm talking everything else, everything other than the line guardsmen. Ratlings to Ogryns to storm troopers to tanks those things are not just normal old unremarkable humans. They are abhumans, they are the best humans, they are 40 tons of armor. So just because the core of the army is just "human" doesn't mean units should be void of character and just die easily.

In what should be the average guard army, the average platoon guardsmen composes 90+% of models in the army, so anything not in that 90% should be exceptional to those average guardsmen. That's what I'm saying, its not about the average guard getting more character, its about the above average guard unit.

There is a fixation and mentality among IG players that just because the majority of our army is suppose to be unremarkable the army in total should be as well. Our armies on a whole have character but I don't think its mutually exclusive to say some of our units should as well. Look at the tyranid; a race that probably out numbers human, where every drones a drone every gaunt a gaunt. Yet their army is not 31 wonderful flavors of cannon fodder. I don't think we need to see IG go anywhere near Tyranids, just think it spells out the fact that even amongst unremarkable hordes you can still have character.

I'm really just talking about the little changes we've mentioned in the proposed rules forum over last few months, that go a long way to making units practical. So when I say I want character I just mean purpose driven practicality.

jp400 wrote:I highly disagree with both of the last statements. Just because guard are "Just Humans" is the worst excuse ive ever heard on why guard should remain one of the worst armies in the game.

'cuse me, but where did either of us ever say that Guard are "one of the the worst armies", or that they should stay that way?

Now if you want to talk about the reality of Guard competitiveness, if you look at the Baltimore GT results, 11 guys brought Guard and on average, finished 82 /147, with a top finisher at 22. Codex-wise, they ranked 9 out of 17. That is NOT a bad showing. It says that the Guard are a mid-tier army with a dated Codex, which is exactly what one would expect to see.

If you look at the overall results, the worst 3 armies in the game (overall and by battle) are:
- Dark Angels
- Tau
- Space Marines (*with* their new Codex)
Poor Dark Angels have a lock on the bottom slot pretty much however you look, but take note that the Guard aren't part of this pile. Even if you want to reduce Guard to a Battle score, they're still better than bottom 3.

jp400 wrote:You need to upgrade to bring the army as a whole on par playing wise with everything else so it plays balanced compared to every other army while at the same time makeing the army unique compared to others. Yes that means giveing the army options that other armies dont have.

We would call those army options "Platoons" and "Ordnance Squadrons", and we believe that they are more than adequate to keep Guard at par.

jp400 wrote:Are Assault 2 Flashlights really that damn scary and overpowered in your book? "

Nope. They're Eldar Lasblasters, however, which makes them un-thematic.

jp400 wrote:Since Guard come from every walk under the sun thats the exact reason WHY they should have DIFFERENT equipment. Would you really expect a guy on a Death World to be armed and equiped the exact same way as a guy on a Ice World

In function as a R24" S3 AP- RF gun? Yes. I already covered this with the gaming table / Lascannon analogy.

jp400 wrote:So because Spaze Marines need to look good guard should remain crap?

Did anybody say that? If so, point it out, please.

jp400 wrote:"The idea that the standard Guardsman would be armed with anything other than the most basic R24" S3 AP- Rapid Fire Lasgun simply isn't workable in the 40k game universe."
Disagree. Not only is it workable without changeing the whole game, but it needs to get done. Lasgun Statline has been outdated for years now. It is no longer even on a basic level effective.

It's not supposed to be. The Lasgun itself is free because it's not important. What's important is that it's attached to a W1 model in a unit with a Heavy and a Special. And maybe also a dual-Heavy Transport.

jp400 wrote:Also what is so wrong with the idea that guard get ONE MODEL with a descent BS or WS? Is it so much to as that our leader is actually good at something other then looking pretty?

Because it makes other models less "special"? WS4 BS4 is good, and makes sense as an upper limit of what can be done by an ordinary human. It's what makes WS5+ BS5+ special and superhuman.

Logistics of maintaining a body of Billions of individual soldiers is met by keeping them more or less identically armed. Sure, the exact pattern of Lasgun is likely to vary wildly, but the standard powerpack is a one size fits all.

And as for the Lasgun, make it anything up to AP4, and it will STILL take 20 shots to drop a Space Marine. Without upping it's strength (why?) or significantly raising it's AP (again, why?) it will be exactly the same. The strength of the Guard are the number of shots, and the amount of non-standard kit available, such as Plasma Guns, Flamers and Meltaguns etc.

They are meant to be an army of Grunts backed up by serious metal.

You gibbered about comparing Basilisk to Whirlwind, and the points. Yes, the Baslisk is more expensive. But it's more or less as accurate, and can threaten far more than a Whirlwind. Whirlwind drops it's shot on Marines, hits all 10. On average, it might drop 2. Baslisk? Statisically, rather than 2 casualties, your looking at 2 survivors, or possibly 1, with a very, very good chance of obliterating the lot. And at AP2, that applies to *any* infantry in the game. And I mean *any*. But thats just not good enough is it. No. Tell you what, lets make it 45 points shall we, since the rest of this is just more aimless wishlisting and random point integers being suggested. And whilst we're at it, I quite like the sound of 20 point fully kitted out Leman Russ. You're Guard, you deserve it.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Logistics of maintaining a body of Billions of individual soldiers is met by keeping them more or less identically armed. Sure, the exact pattern of Lasgun is likely to vary wildly, but the standard powerpack is a one size fits all.

According to the Fluff, that's not true. Different types of lasguns use different types of powerpacks.

And btw, Basilisks are AP 3.

I think there is a disconnect between "low power level units" and a low power level army. I think IG should have plenty of the first, and that would have them avoid being the latter.

Current Commissars are fine as they are now, they're just far too expensive (I say 20pts but throw in a bolt pistol and carapace armor). Same with stormtroopers, they just need to be 8pts a piece. Even the current ogryns wouldn't be bad at 15pts a piece. Chimeras at 45pts, etc.

I think that's the fundamental tension in the IG book design: to what extent do you make units better compared to when you make them cheaper.

As the proud owner of 7000pts of painted IG, i'd be happy with either, but I'd prefer them to be cheap.

Last time I looked, Bassies were AP2. I might be wrong, but I'm sure I'm not. Wouldn't be the first time, thats for sure.

And the fluff does mention that the vast majority of Lasgun patterns have very much interchangable powerpacks.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Last time I looked, Bassies were AP2. I might be wrong, but I'm sure I'm not. Wouldn't be the first time, thats for sure.

And the fluff does mention that the vast majority of Lasgun patterns have very much interchangable powerpacks.

Basiliks (or more accuratly the earthshaker cannon) is AP3. The manticore (the four shot missile launcher) is AP2.

Interchangable power packs or not, the lasgun is fine at S3. Somebody has to be worst, and IG are it. Now, with 4pt guardsmen, then the lasgun isn't nearly as bad for how bloody cheap it is.

I'd love to see some 40k players who whinge about S3 play Fantasy. I really would.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Hey I'll be happy with a Commissar that's worth taking. Let's not get too carried away in the details until then.

BYE

Oh!

Please let it be the STORMHAMMER!

I think that's what it is called...

The version with the enormous amount of bolters on it...

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I'd love to see some 40k players who whinge about S3 play Fantasy. I really would.

Why? Isn't S3 good enough to be useful in fantasy? And aren't models armed with S3 weapons often able to influence games in ways other than casualties, such as through static combat resolution?

Or is it possible that the games are radically different?

40k and Fantasy are two different games. Why even try to compare the two?

I just think it would open eyes tactically to just how to get the most out of your troops, rather than just trying to shoehorn in as much AP3 as you can.

i don't see why people have a problem with the lasgun, as far as it goes it still a decent standard weapon, perhaps giving it AP6 may help so at least you can kill something that has a terrible amour save (gaunts come to mind), i personally love using massed volleys of lasgun fire hell 35 guardsmen with 3 heavy bolters and a missile launcher kill captain lysander due to some bad rolling on my opponents part with me getting average wounding rolls in 2 games straight, that was after his unit of termies running with him got blown up by my demolisher,

i think they just need a few tweaks such as the KP structure and then the armies fine, guard is to be honest one of the best codex's GW have produced IMHO, you can do good things with the army but a 1500pt army with a few platoons, some tanks and a few shiny units (say rough riders or stormtroopers, i use 5 with DS and 2 meltas as a suicide tank unit) still will work, hell i've even beaten a lash army with it

i hope GW doesn't mess the army up too much i love it the way it is

JohnHwangDD wrote:'cuse me, but where did either of us ever say that Guard are "one of the the worst armies", or that they should stay that way?

Now if you want to talk about the reality of Guard competitiveness, if you look at the Baltimore GT results, 11 guys brought Guard and on average, finished 82 /147, with a top finisher at 22. Codex-wise, they ranked 9 out of 17. That is NOT a bad showing. It says that the Guard are a mid-tier army with a dated Codex, which is exactly what one would expect to see.

In all fairness most IG players are in general better players than the average player. We've all kinda learned to make due with less or moved on to other armies. So unless you come from the school of thinking its all won entirely by the "book," and by that I mean codex, I think IG players always deserve some extra credit.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Logistics of maintaining a body of Billions of individual soldiers is met by keeping them more or less identically armed. Sure, the exact pattern of Lasgun is likely to vary wildly, but the standard powerpack is a one size fits all.

I thought the fluff made it cleat that it was upto the individual homeworld of the troops to provide and maintaint their gear. That while billions of guardsmen may come from a single planet their equipment will often vary with those guardsmen of other worlds. Thats a significant fluff basis for the Voystroyans. It didn't change things in their case but whose to say that a particular lasgun pattern wouldn't vary so drastically as to have different stats.

Well said Mythos!

Current Commissars are fine as they are now, they're just far too expensive (I say 20pts but throw in a bolt pistol and carapace armor). Same with stormtroopers, they just need to be 8pts a piece. Even the current ogryns wouldn't be bad at 15pts a piece. Chimeras at 45pts, etc.

Ogryns at the same point value as a basic marine? Surely you jest! As much as a couple of the guard units need the point reduction, that is wayyyyy to low of a points value. The chimera seems a little low at 45 also. That puts it in the same area as the new razorback, which in and of itself is a little cheap (and not as well armored with lower carrying capacity).

Why? Isn't S3 good enough to be useful in fantasy? And aren't models armed with S3 weapons often able to influence games in ways other than casualties, such as through static combat resolution?

Or is it possible that the games are radically different?

Lasguns are great at killing unarmored low toughness threats. Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's I repeat.

Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's
Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's
Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's
Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's
Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's
Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's
Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's
Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's


They kill gaunts and orks only a little bit worse than a boter. They aren't meant to shoot at anything with a high armor value. Thats why you have 20 squads each of which have some sort of special weapon.

Special weapons make the guard footsoldiers valuable, not the standard eqipment. The standard equipment is supposed to be crap. It is crap. It's paired up against psychically constructed guns that shoot razordisks, minimissile launchers held by 8 foot tall supermen, weapons that tear you apart at a molecular level, and high yield plasma weapons shot by communist anime stereotypes.