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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I'd love to see some 40k players who whinge about S3 play Fantasy. I really would.

"I'd love to see some of these chess players who bitch about queens try playing Go sometime."

You can't port unit stats from one game to another, so your snippy little remark is meaningless.

As a Guard player who's long ago given up on the idea of playing to win, here's my two cents. The Guard are exactly as powerful as they should be on the whole. The fact that they're boring to play, unrewarding to model and have no efficient units for many essential battlefield roles are all design features of the army. Line Guardsmen with lasguns are supposed to be garbage. Chimeras are supposed to be fragile. Storm Troopers are supposed to be overpriced elite infantry that Space Marines point and laugh at.

Within the context of the 40k universe, the Imperial Guard is supposed to be the lowest of the low, a pathetic, underequipped army of endless numbers, thrust into futile wars by careless forces of fate. Their survival relies on using big, ugly guns and tanks to compensate for this, as well as suicidal bravery and lunatic resolve. And the occasional squad of men carrying insanely dangerous plasma weaponry.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Lasguns are great at killing unarmored low toughness threats.

Thank god every other army in play is just that! Now whats this Silly MEQ you speak of? I hardly see that in play at all.................

Marines still die to Lasguns if you have enough of them. And, well, spank my ass and call me Shirley, if thats not exactly what IG have! Good lord, imagine that.

Chimera's will be 55 points, not 45 points and come with a multi-laser, heavy bolter, smoke launchers and search light as a standard if the Imperial Armour 2 FAQ is to be believed.

Well you see Ms. Shirley, Your argument again isnt valid.
"Marines still die to lasguns IF you have enough of them."

Yeah, and I can also tear down a wall useing really small hammers IF I have enough of them...

I think your smart enough to get where this is goin.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Current Commissars are fine as they are now, they're just far too expensive (I say 20pts but throw in a bolt pistol and carapace armor). Same with stormtroopers, they just need to be 8pts a piece. Even the current ogryns wouldn't be bad at 15pts a piece. Chimeras at 45pts, etc.

Ogryns at the same point value as a basic marine? Surely you jest! As much as a couple of the guard units need the point reduction, that is wayyyyy to low of a points value. The chimera seems a little low at 45 also. That puts it in the same area as the new razorback, which in and of itself is a little cheap (and not as well armored with lower carrying capacity).

This is an example of arguing a point that doesn't need to be argued. Yes, 15pt ogryns might be overpowered. That wasn't the point, the point was that they'd be good at that level, even with the current rules. I guess I should have made clear that those weren't serious suggestions, just proof of concept that you can make anything viable by making it cheap enough.

In fairness though, the basic ogryn at 15pts isn't totally off the charts with the new combat resolution. At 15pts the ogryn compares with a nob as follows: +2 S, +1 W, -2 attacks (with the slugga choppa bonus), no furious charge, no waagh, no open topped transport option, no access to a power weapon/feel no pain/armor/invulnerable save/etc and they can never be a scoring unit! Sure, it's low, but I'd price them closer to 15 than to 25.

As for the chimera, again, I think you could make a compelling argument. Sure, 50-60 is more likely, but it's a fragile tank from the sides with BS3 and it's not fast. It's a aggressive pricing but so is 6pt shoota boys, 40pt razorbacks, 85 pt predator destructor's, etc.

jp400 wrote:Well you see Ms. Shirley, Your argument again isnt valid.
"Marines still die to lasguns IF you have enough of them."

Yeah, and I can also tear down a wall useing really small hammers IF I have enough of them...

I think your smart enough to get where this is goin.

So you are claiming, by calling me Shirley, that IG don't in fact have a lot of Lasguns at their disposal, yes?

And actually, I could probably take down a wall with a single very small hammer, given enough time. But thankfully, both and I the Guard have various weapons better suited to removing the obstacle of our choice... For example, I'd take my Sledge Hammer to the Wall, and the Guard would blast the Marines with a Battlecannon.

I just don't get why people demand Lasguns become so all killy. The difference twixt AP6 and AP- when you are S3 really is quite negligible. Sure, Gaunts will get their 6+ save, but take it from a Savage Orc Player (6+ Ward all the way!) it's hardly something to be relied upon.

There have been long in depth discussion on pricing Ogryn and Chimeras, needless to say there are alot of opinions.

I think Chimeras deserves a cost down, though I tend to go with price higher than a razorback.

Ogryns really shouldn't be brought down in cost as much as they should be brought up in worth. Make them worth the points they currently cost. That discussion rages on in the proposed rule forum.

The way I always think of it, lasguns are designed to fight the Imperiums greatest threat, itself. Lasguns are really human versus human weapons, in that context its a perfectly good weapon. The rest of the universe is just scary. And you're right they shouldn't kill MEQ's. With only 1,000,000 marines and 1,000,000,000,000,000+ humans and the galaxy as large as it is the odds of the average guardsmen seeing and fighting a marine or MEQ are relatively slim.

BrookM wrote:Chimera's will be 55 points, not 45 points and come with a multi-laser, heavy bolter, smoke launchers and search light as a standard if the Imperial Armour 2 FAQ is to be believed.

Nice catch. I'm curious as to what "Mobile Command Vehicle" refers to, and if it will be included in the new IG codex (along with the turret weapon options). Didn't see any rule like it in a brief perusal of IA2.

Well, the Chimera kit will receive a makeover, so we can assume that it will most likely also feature a plastic autocannon, heavy flamer and twin-linked heavy bolter alongside the Hellhound parts, seeing as how GW now wants to try and get most, if not all upgrades in the kit.

As for the mobile command vehicle, it might be a guard only rule where infantry units can benefit from a command squad inside the Chimera or that the Chimera can somehow relay or maintain a link with command squads. We've mailed FW about this though I doubt I'll get a good reply out of this.

aka_mythos wrote:With only 1,000,000 marines and 1,000,000,000,000,000+ humans and the galaxy as large as it is the odds of the average guardsmen seeing and fighting a marine or MEQ are relatively slim.

Unfortunately the guardsmen in your (and anyone else who plays IG's) army are the REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY LUCKY ones that fight marines ALL the time!

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:With only 1,000,000 marines and 1,000,000,000,000,000+ humans and the galaxy as large as it is the odds of the average guardsmen seeing and fighting a marine or MEQ are relatively slim.

Unfortunately the guardsmen in your (and anyone else who plays IG's) army are the REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY LUCKY ones that fight marines ALL the time!

So play a different army champ.

You must be the only person here who doesn't 'get' Abba.

BYE

LoL.
Abba nailed my point on the head.

H.B.M.C. wrote:You must be the only person here who doesn't 'get' Abba.

BYE

Clearly

I don't think you "get" Abba so much as he chooses you.

Dancing Queen, Dancing Queen, I CHOOSE YOU!!!

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:With only 1,000,000 marines and 1,000,000,000,000,000+ humans and the galaxy as large as it is the odds of the average guardsmen seeing and fighting a marine or MEQ are relatively slim.

Unfortunately the guardsmen in your (and anyone else who plays IG's) army are the REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY LUCKY ones that fight marines ALL the time!

I was just pointing out a fluffish reason IG lasguns are not marine killers. I actually end up playing against nids and Orks more than marines. I play ten games against other races for every one game against a marine army.

On lasguns though think of it this way, a lasgun has the equivalent fire power of an assault rifle good for killing other humans but against aliens and other scary stuff you only have to see a movie to see how ineffectual it would be. I'm all for lasguns getting some alterations or adjustments but the idea they should be MEQ killers, in any way other than en masse, is silly and out of character.

I full heartily agree that more special characters is just a waste. The more they have the more broken they become. Have you seen the Special Characters for Chaos in Warhammer Fantasy, that's just sick! Those things can take out almost anything. The Suneater? WTF!? Stregnth 7, with a +2 strength weapon, 7 attacks, 5 or so wounds!? Seriously!? Just keep the doctrines and let US custimize the our own Unites. I mean Fluff wise, the HQ is taking orders from the player so the player must be like, Commander-in-Chief or something so let us customize it.

/rant

Any word on if the STORMHAMMER is one of the 5 conversion possibilities in the new plastic multi-Baneblade kit?

No word on the Stormhammer, but the the multi-baneblade as you put it, is a kit for the non-turret variants of the baneblade.

These IG rumors look great, i am really excited for my favorite army. I actually like the special characters giving the army certain characteristics. the way i see it is better than losing customization in its entirity. I would preer being able to customize things without the need for special characters but oh well, its better than nothing and it does make it easier for people unfamiliar with the army to know what to expect when they see a given model.

also, how do the IG play in this edition? I have not played 40K since 4th and they kicked ass back then. I loved playing my gaurd army, are they still able to hang with most any army or do the new rules make it a lot tougher for them as it seems to have done with other armies?

They do pretty well outside of killpoints missions. They have lots of small squads so contesting and squatting on objectives is easy for them and they have a considerable amount of heavy weapons and large blast weapons to dislodge enemy objective holders.

Unfortunately they have like three hundred million kill points in an army so they have a hard time in those scenarios.

Guard are awesome in Apocalypse.

Why is that, John? I've honestl;y not even had a chance to read the Apoc rules, but what gives the guard such an advantage? My only guess would be that they appear to have more real ranged weaponry than anyone else. But that's just a guess.

'Cause they can just bring all the good stuff and ignore the useless stuff. Guard allied with Eldar in Apoc is just sick.

But none of this matters as how badly or how well an army performs in Apoc should have no bearing on whether it's a good army in 40K.

BYE

I don't think I've played "regular" 40k since apoc came out

well, byt the time i am back in the states the nex dex will be out and hopefully the kill point issue will be sorted out. it sounds like the old IG still can win some games.

Agamemnon2 wrote:As a Guard player who's long ago given up on the idea of playing to win, here's my two cents. The Guard are exactly as powerful as they should be on the whole. The fact that they're boring to play, unrewarding to model and have no efficient units for many essential battlefield roles are all design features of the army. Line Guardsmen with lasguns are supposed to be garbage. Chimeras are supposed to be fragile. Storm Troopers are supposed to be overpriced elite infantry that Space Marines point and laugh at.

Within the context of the 40k universe, the Imperial Guard is supposed to be the lowest of the low, a pathetic, underequipped army of endless numbers, thrust into futile wars by careless forces of fate. Their survival relies on using big, ugly guns and tanks to compensate for this, as well as suicidal bravery and lunatic resolve. And the occasional squad of men carrying insanely dangerous plasma weaponry.

These self-defeatist remarks are pretty disgusting, and people like you are the reason that the Imperial Guard continue to suck, you know that, right?

Instead of actually doing something, you're doing nothing. Guard are fun to model. It's not really that hard. They may not have many efficient units, but the reason for this is that the Guard runs by redundancy, i.e. having several heavy bolters instead of just one.

Yeah, comments like yours make me sick.

By the way, technically the Imperial Guard are one of the most powerful forces. The only reason they're the worst in the actual game? Because they've annihilated everything else, and the armies that are classified as enemies are probably the only ones left.

What you're pointing out to Agamemnon2 is really what I try to point out before as the fixation or mentality of some IG players, that somehow they feel their army should suck.

With every edition power creep occurs for every army except the Imperial Guard. Our units just get cheaper and cheaper, because of this mentality that they have to be the "lowest of the low," why not the middle of the low or even the moderately out of place of the low. At the rate we're going, by 7th edition we'll have 2pt guardsmen fielded in armies of 500+ models for standard sized games.

I'm not saying we should be the best, just saying we shouldn't have our army strive to be the worst with every go around.