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My take -- hobbyists as a group probably trend below the baseline in terms of social skills. And I'd guess most GW salespeople are more likely to be hobbyists than purely exceptional salespeople (who could presumably find more lucrative commission work elsewhere).

So IMO it's not that surprising that your experience with GW sales staff can be very different depending on who you talk to. Some have the skills to correctly gauge how to speak to a given customer, and some don't.

You know, if you go into a store and talk to the merchant, do you really think he's not gonna try to sell you stuff? I mean, if you need friends, make some friends, but the GW staff have a job to do first and that's sell to paying customers.

Lots of people I know think that they can walk into a game store and just pal around. The thing is, game stores ARE great places for this sort of thing and the staff is very lenient in most stores I frequent. But it is a courtesy extended to gamers, nothing more, and it does not imply that just because the staff is friendly to you that they can't wait to help you design your army or talk to you for 50 minutes.

Am I right?

I am a regular at my GW, there being no other FLGS around and many of the other modeling companies I had never heard of until i found this website. Back on topic, I have never seen them be aggressive when it come to selling stuff. Their tactic is to politely suggest things that you might need. aka always saying when ringing up do you need primer or glue. They always know their product and are super knowledgeable when it comes to anything about the hobby.

As in most things, you're going to have different experiences because the staff from one store to the next is 'different'. It's not really a surprise that 'younger' or 'newer' sales-staff are often the most 'energized' salesfolk - especially if their manager is watching over their shoulder.

For about the past year I've noticed lots of differences between the two GW stores I frequent. In both places, if the 'boss' is around, the rest of the staff is obviously more 'on edge'. Maybe some folks can't see it, but I sure can. I've done a decade in retail myself, as both a grunt and in management, and I believe I can sense when staff seems 'uptight'.

So, I usually go into these stores hoping that the manager isn't around. Sounds weird, I know, but that's just been my experience over the past year.

Like many in this thread, I always get 'pounced upon' the minute I enter the door. Personally, I kinda like it - they acknowledge my presence and immediately offer themselves up for assistance - which to me is infinitely better than going into a store and being completely ignored. Neither store's employees have ever tried to 'pressure' me into buying anything - then again, if they 'suggest' that I look at the new 40K boxed-set, and they only suggest it a single time and then don't dwell on it - I don't consider that 'pressure'. So far, every employee I've dealt with at both stores thankfully understands what 'not interested' means, and they move on.

The only problem I've had with any of the local GW staff is that at one store, there are obvious 'cliques' amongst veteran gamers/store staff. I know a lot of you vets might think this is 'natural' and such, and personally I don't have any real opinion on it, really.

But the first several times I went into the store, I'd seen gamers eating/drinking at the tables (both painting and gaming). The wife and I then go down there one night to do some purchasing/painting, and we take sodas, and one of the staff nearly berates us for bringing drinks into the store, finishing with, "Well, we won't throw you out this time, but be more mindful of that in the future". I explained that I've seen plenty of other people eating/drinking in the store as recently as that very same weekend, and he steadfastly insisted it was 'the rule'... which is strange, since he himself was present on other nights when I've seen others eating/drinking in the store.

Don't get me wrong - I can understand not allowing it, and that is perfectly fine - I just felt extremely embarassed when other customers were listening to the 'lecture' this guy gave me, and I had (wrongly) assumed that since other customers were allowed to do it, I was too. I just feel that there should have been a better way to explain, "Hey, we only let certain folks who we trust do it", or whatever, instead of coming down on us like we were breaking the law.

Needless to say - I don't spend any money in that particular GW store anymore, and likely never will. I'll go there to browse (since it's very close to home), but I buy my stuff from the other store (which is very close to where I work) now - and ironically enough, the second store actually sells food/drink itself.


In reference to the guy upset about the 3 Basilisks... once you bring up the word 'eBay', you're turning a corner there. eBay is a very unpredictable entity in the retail world. I mean, you told the guy you can buy a Basilisk on eBay for cheaper than the GW store... but you could just as easily have said that you could buy a Basilisk on eBay for $10. Stores can't and don't really compete with eBay and for many obvious reasons. Like someone else mentioned - the salesperson hopefully politely told you, "Then go for it, get it from eBay if you can get it that cheap - I sure would!" I can only guess how many times some GW staff have heard those words - "Holy Crap! I can get this on eBay for xx% off!" There's not a whole lot they can do about that.

When it comes to price-matching against themselves (i.e. 1 single Basilsk compared to the box of 3), not every single employee might have the power to do that. When I first started in retail, at the grunt level I wasn't allowed to modify a price for ANY reason - I had to get a manager. Maybe that's the way it is with GW?

If the guy you dealt with WAS the manager, maybe he's been instructed not to do such things? There's always some else higher up the food-chain who might see the price-reduction for 9 basilisks and wonder, "WTF?!?", and the guy might be worried about attracting heat? He has every right to hold you to the price-tag. And if you threaten to go someplace else - that's your right, as a customer. Most likely, though, it wasn't anything personal. The guy may very well have WANTED to sell them to you. Of course he'd like to beef up his EOD sales report with an extra 150 from you - but things like that also set dangerous prescedents: what if you kept coming back for more? If he does it for you once, he'd be expected to do it again. And what if other people found out? They'd expect the same deal. And then that deal would extend beyond basilisks and into other products... on and on. It could really go downhill from there.

Then there's the attitude issue. How did you propose the idea? Were you crappy about it? Were you polite about it? Cold? Impersonal? Did you hold the eBay/going-somewhere-else over his head from the start? Sales-staff are people too, and will react like people often do. If you came across aggressive in any way, that might have closed off any willingness he had to work with you.

I am not saying that GW folks never broker 'deals', just that they may have valid reasons to not always do so. When it comes down to it, all they are really expected to do is stick to the price-tag on their product. Dropping that price for some reason (when not on sale or otherwise a special deal) is more of a favor to you - not an expectation.

Just my 2 coppers, tho. I definitely understand why you'd be upset about it. From my own perspective, if I were in that salesman's shoes, I would have tried to come up with any reason I could to sell you those bassies. But if I absolutely couldn't, I'd try to let you know that as professionally and as kindly as I could.


Sorry for the ramble,
-Mort

Hmm, when I went in to buy a Warhammer Army and chose Brettonians the let me use the price thing for the spearheads (which you basically get the codex free) but I got to mix and match the units with what I wanted. So it was pretty nice. Generally I find that if you are buying a large number of things once in a while they will give you a deal on it. Maybe not a big one but a free metal blister or the like is still nice.

However the friendly local gaming store isn't really all that friendly, he is constantly calling customers retards and the like if they do or ask something that only a vet would know. (Like a guy asked whether or not any other store in London sold FoW and the guy berated him for a few minutes...) Stuff like that makes me not want to buy there, never had that problem at the GW.

Bignutter wrote:Well to clear a few things up:
No GW staff don't get bonuses for selling stuff-
Yes GW staff members can get fired for not selling enough- thats part of working in retail- you don't hit targets you don't stick around...

They used to get bonuses for making monthly goals. Then again GW's philosophy was "if one store can make $5K day, every store WILL make $5K a day". There was a time where if a store was doing poorly, eveyone but a lowly red shirt would be sacked, the red shirt would become the new manager by default, and the cycle would start over again.

The Big Mek wrote:
I'm sure the manager could strike such deals as he won't be firing himself.

When the inventory is done and what was sold doesn't match what should have been sold, people get fired.

When I worked at GW the rule was within 3 seconds of walking through the door you were to be greeted, approached, and steered towards a sale.

That's basically still how it is now. The sacking of store staff doesn't really happen anymore and bonuses/incentives for sales for Red Shirts is gone. No longer do they receive a bitz order at basically 98% off.....which, although crappy, is also good.
Red Shirts are suppose to be more focused on the "hobby journey" and, although they should make sales pitches, should not hound for sale. The Managers worry about sales and the red shirts ensure that the hobby community is generally happy and making progress. New customers are of course still high priority but it's no longer "LOok aT MY CRAZY InTro GAME!!! ZARGH!! LOUD NOISES!! BUY BUY BUY!!!"

That was one of the best things, bits by weight and 60% off everything else.....

Two good experiences I had at the store attached to the Battle Bunker in MD recently-

1. Walked in 6 months ago after being out of the hobby for 5 years. Had already decided to purchase my models online from the guy I used to order from. After they realized I wasn't buying, suggested a painting/modelling/tactics class to get back up to speed on things. Didn't have my models yet to start the class, so they gave me 8 or so (of the army I had chosen) for free so I'd have something to work with!

2. Walked in two days ago and told the manager I was thinking of learning fantasy. Looked at the new lizardmen 'dex, looked at the rulebook. He went in back and got a paperback of the rulebook and gave it to me for free, and told me to come back when I'd read through it and we'd talk more.

Now, granted, sometimes I feel pressured to buy, but being someone who generally succumbs to that pressure and impulse-buys, they've gone pretty easy on me, imho!

Two good experiences I had at the store attached to the Battle Bunker in MD recently

You know, that's exactly the experience I had visiting the GW HQ at Glen Bernie, MD. I've been out of the game for a few years (5 as well) and when I went back the first time in December, I was pleasantly surprised. The staff was helpful but not pushy. I asked them to teach me the basics of the new edition, and they even set me up with a knowledgeable opponent who was happy to patiently teach me the intricacies. I pulled out my old Ork stuff and we had a good time playing.

Last week, I visited again with the plan to bring along my Skullhammer conversion and work on it in store. I sat at a table, and was greeted by the district manager. He gave me some helpful tips, a small sales pitch, and then introduced me to the veteran hobbyists. I plan to make my visits a weekly occurrence. We'll see about buying from them, though.

Maybe my experience was rare. Maybe the store I visit is extraordinary or something, but I've officially changed my mind about GW stores from the first year they opened in 2004.

Sometimes the experiences are good, sometimes they're a pain. As I said, I've been in there where the 16 year old kid at the counter interrupts my phone conversations to try to get me to preorder those "all the new gak for way too much money" boxed sets, and I've wanted to punch him in the face.

There's also times where I've been in the store and spent an hour just talking about tacticas and army lists, and that sweet ass dragon model on forgeworld, and never been pressured to buy anything. I just find that in general, they can be annoyingly pushy when it comes to getting you to buy.

Just to tear into the 9 basilisks guy though, I fully understand where you're coming from with the guy being silly for not selling them to you. However, having worked for about 5 years in retail I can tell you with all certainty that there is NOTHING that gets a salesman's back up like the "well I can get this somewhere else for cheaper" routine. It's like "oh ya? well why don't you just fething go there then...donkey-cave" I get it all the time from the cheap pricks who come in trying to get a dollar off of this or that because some store like fething walmart carries it for fifty cents cheaper. "Uh huh, and you think that our tiny little store can compete with wal mart.....why?"
As soon as a customer breaks into that routine you just shut down. That customer is no longer a customer, they are a liability and one that you want out of your store asap. You go into survival mode, and just do the motions until they're out of your life. Yes, in this case it lost him a sale. But in 99% of cases, that customer was never going to make a valuable sale anyways, and isn't worth their weight in gold for the trouble they're going to cause you. Those kind of customers are the bane of retail.

not to say that that was you. But from the sounds of things you may have come off that way (intending to or not), and if you did then there's no way you were going to get that sale unless there is some sort of store policy in place, or his manager was looking over his shoulder. Every retail worker has a line, that once you cross it no amount of "sales incentives" are going to make them want to cut a deal with you to make a sale, and for I'd say a majority of those workers it's the "I can get this for XXX less at YYY" routine. No matter how much your deal may have made sense in hindsight, at the time all he wanted to do was to make you go away

....god damn I hate working in retail. At least at my new job I get to drink at work. Not sure how else I'd make it through the day

GW's revised retail strategy in the USA is to put shops in high footfall locations and use them primarily as a showcase and recruiting centre. Sales are secondary. More and more sales are happening through the internet anyway.

In my experience, GW has ALWAYS gone with the hard sell. Thats their business model and the stores have quotas to meet....

Cant say its the best way, but thats their choice.

Solorg wrote:You know, if you go into a store and talk to the merchant, do you really think he's not gonna try to sell you stuff?

Am I right?

Unfortunately, no your not.

There's selling product, and then there is selling product. A good store owner/salesmen adjust his style and pitch Selling to a first timer is NOT the same as selling to a guy who's been in the hobby longer then the salesmen, who has 6-10 fully painted armies that total 25K in points.

The problem is GW, over all, has only one mode. Thats the hard sell. *shrug* One needs to learn, as a salesmen, there's a time to press and a time to back off and let the pot come to a slow boil. Some people like to look and browse and if they need help, they'll ask.

Its something GW needs to learn. No one begrudges sales. But one has o learn to qualify a customer, their needs.

Back one my local FLAGS was owned by someone else, the owner knew me by sight, knew enough to wave off his employees to bother me, as I knew what I wanted, and hell, knew what was on the shelves and such better then the people he employed. Sometimes you have to back off to make the sale.

But GW, over all, wont learn this lesson.

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I had a short term job as a shop floor salesperson in the famous London department store Selfridges.

To their credit, although I was only on a month’s contract over Christmas (this was for the toy department) I was given a full week’s training covering basic consumer law, how to operate the till, how to fill in credit card slips (this was before the introduction of EPOS) and most importantly, selling technique.

I was taught that the worst thing you can do is go and ask the customer if you can help them.

I was taught to be visibly available, without approaching a customer, until I observed that they were ‘hovering’. This was the signal that they probably were interested in something and at that point an approach could be made along the lines of “Is there something in particular you are looking for?”

More advanced selling started once they said they needed a present for a boy aged 12 or whatever, as this gave you the opportunity to guide them towards a suitable category of toys.

We were also trained to help the customer in whatever way possible. For example, if they needed a particular locomotive (I was dealing mainly with toy trains and racing car sets,) even if I knew it wasn’t in stock, I had to pretend to search for it quickly, offer possible alternatives or to order it, and if they were not interested then direct the customer to Hamleys.

This meant that although you didn’t make a sale, you showed the customer that Selfridges was a high service establishment that put their interests top of the list. And this was more likely to produce long-term repeat business.

In the salespersons defense, the rigorus training program, combined with the fact that the sales person is jazzed about working for GW produces the overzelous effect.
most of the issues I've ever had here in the states came about from the new guy salesmen. Younger guys seem to be selling technique, and a few skullings later, they learn, relearn, and retemper thier sales technique.

I would't get so wrapped around the salesman, they are probibly a product of thier environment. As we all know, the overt big industrial feel of GW permeates every facet of thier product.
Like it or not, it isn't a personal affront to you, they are trying to sell a product, and thier technique "By The Book" is pretty overt in the way in which they do it.

It is the persons real life ply of sales trade that makes them a good salesperson. "Sell the product, use this and this technique" doesn't work as well as learning the technique and making it work for you.

A few of you posters seem to think that it is the other way around, it is not a personal interaction, its a job. These guys don't need to be your enemies, you just need to get what you want and move on out. They try to sell you something, you don't like so and so, "Think" ect. Personally doesn't have anything to do with it.

I have had my share of negative experiances from the red shirts, but I have also had numerous good ones. The guys that KNOW are the ones that last. The redshirts on the low end are compeating for thier job, some on a trial basis, some because there is always anotherone waiting in the wings, and still others are only there because they bought into the B.S. and think that working for GW is one of those "Be ALL End All" dream jobs, and then when reality sets in they are then reeled into the real work environemnt that the rest of us are.
The red shirts are human. they arn't your personal enemy. some are good, some outright suck. Take it in stride, get your gear, and if you want, hang at your local GW store, or don't. Bear in mind though, that 95% of the GW stores in the states are stratigicly placed to get the maximum sale. They are not your local gaming shop. they are a Mcdonalds, Wendys, or Hardees store that sells miniature figures... SPECIFIC figures by a corperate entity.

I support going into a GW store, every now and then, just to say you went. other then that, I go to my local store, shoot the stuff with my own crowd, and play, paint, or whatever with our own.
GW has done us a favor by making a store chain that is EASY. not nessecarily your LOCAL GAMING STORE.

One of the big issues that we have in the states is the fact that our local communities are loosing themselves by throwing in with corperate entity type companies, and the Ma and Pa stores are going under.
Don't blame the employee for the whole. The redshirt isn't just there to be a !@#$ head, they are there to work in a corperate store.
Deal with them and move on out.

I hate my GW store the people are really really aggressive and honestly kinda jerks.

They are either

A. Telling me about their super cheesy armies like the beastman army with 30 units of 5 wolves and morghor the chaos spawn maker

or

B.

Me. Hi do you have any badbad black?
GW. Nope, but hey look we have the new wash paint set.
Me. But I just want bedab black I don't use the other washes its a waste of money for me.
GW. I think your wrong, instead why dont you get the MEGA paint set.
Me. When will you get bedab black in?
GW. I don't know the computer automates our purchases so we have no idea when it will be coming in
Me. Yeah no thanks i'm just gonna go to the complete strategist instead.

1. Visit car dealership
2. Return to thread with new perspective

Grot 6 wrote:In the salespersons defense, the rigorus training program, combined with the fact that the sales person is jazzed about working for GW produces the overzelous effect.

Except that defense completely fails, since GW's technique is pretty much overall, the hard sell or pressure type. i rarely have seen, or heard from some who have worked, allowing much else.

Take the bassie example....assuming the costs of the models brining them in are roughly eqivilant, store costs that is, salesmen I know would take that sale. Your customer wants X, X being the 3 pack deal, you say you cant get it or wont....what do you expect them to really do? Pay $30 more for it seperate? There's no sane customer thats going to do that, on ANY type product, not just gaming items. ESPECIALLY not with gaming items that can be gotten via ebay and otehr places.

*shrug* The one FLAGS ages ago, I use to frequent under a certain manager knew that, he could throw the customer a bone. Kill the tax, something.

groz wrote:1. Visit car dealership
2. Return to thread with new perspective

Dont you thinlk, that by comparing it to a car dealership to make GW stores look better, thats saying something? And not much good?

I'm guessing that Groz is a cash buyer so the car salesmen were falling all over themselves to be nice to him.

carmachu wrote:Dont you thinlk, that by comparing it to a car dealership to make GW stores look better, thats saying something? And not much go od?

Lol, true.

Kilkrazy wrote:I'm guessing that Groz is a cash buyer so the car salesmen were falling all over themselves to be nice to him.

My next cash purchase is Dakka. I sent a burlap sack marked with a big "$" to Yak, and I'm awaiting the response. Once I own this place, I'm going to devote it to a permanent discussion of why bikes assault 12". I may rename it to bikesassault12.com.

groz wrote:1. Visit car dealership
2. Return to thread with new perspective

Difference there is HUGE. First, the salesman is probably working on PURE commission. When I worked at a dealership you got paid minimum wage for the week if you didn't sell any vehicles. As soon as you sold any, the amount you were paid during non-selling periods was taken out of your check as repayment for the check you got.

Also, people don't buy cars as much as hobby games. Over the course of a year or two a guy might buy 2 full armies. Some people go DECADES without buying cars at a dealership. I'm pretty sure my mother has NEVER bought a car from a dealer, or I wasn't born yet when she did.

No, car salesmen are pushy because they don't make an hourly rate. They get paid to sell you something, and the more expensive that something is, the more money they make. An "average" salesperson at my dealership made about $35K per year. The best 2 made more than $150K by averaging about a car per day. You buy a cheap car of a lot, the salesman isn't making much, sometimes as little as $150. Buy that $22K used car and they probably made a grand or more. Highest commission I saw was for $3500 from one vehicle. Lowest I saw was $75.

There is no real comparison here. Nothing really compares to selling cars. It is a very stressful job, unless you have a lot of previous contacts and those contacts liked you enough to tell their friends.

The other point about selling or buying cars is that the two same people hardly ever buy/sell a car twice. So each partner in the deal can be as much of a bastard as they like, without prejudicing future sales.

To make a very general point, genuine salespeople really are in it for the money -- that is what totally motivates them.

That doesn't make them bad people. Plenty of salespeople (I know several guys in my company) are friendly and fun when they aren't trying to sell you something.

When they are on the job, though, everything is about making the sale at the best possible terms.

I have the fortune of living near Toronto ON, where i can reach a store that sells 40K, in any direction, in about 15min at most.

I have chosen, most times, to go to the GW stores. I'd say 50% of the time i get someone who knows what they are doing. The last two times the guy i got, and this is just my opinion, but i think he may have been brain dead.

First time i dealt with him, because he was available to talk to, i asked for the GW airbrush. He went to the back, got it, told me it was the last one so he couldnt sell it to me, then proceeded to tell me why it wasnt that great and how his $500 airbrush that he used was the best. Mid conversation (diatribe) i glanced over at another employee who shrugged his shoulders at me while i politely listened to numbskull. Numbskull then told me another store where i could go to purchase an airbrush.

Which as i decided i may as well at least compare some airbrushes... turns out he sent me in the wrong direction.



Sometimes... its just not worth the drive.

Kilkrazy wrote:To make a very general point, genuine salespeople really are in it for the money -- that is what totally motivates them.

That doesn't make them bad people. Plenty of salespeople (I know several guys in my company) are friendly and fun when they aren't trying to sell you something.

When they are on the job, though, everything is about making the sale at the best possible terms.

The point however, repeatedly stated, is there is more than one way to sell something. Becuase if, as you stated, everything is about making the sale at the best possible terms, high pressure isnt always the best way. Its just oen way.

One of these days I'll actually go into a GW store. a few years ago, I passed by the one in Palisades Mall in West Nyack, NY. All it had was one small demo table and then everything else was just boxes of stuff at list price.

Are other GW stores more... gamerlike?

We've got one called "the battle bunker" which is the canadian head office. Loads of play space, always has stock, as it should.

But the other 99% i've been in look all the same. Postage stamp size store with one table in it at most for demos and product lining the walls.