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George Spiggott wrote:@JohnHwangDD: Are you saying you don't stand by this point then?

JohnHwangDD wrote:I'm sure that PPP would dearly love to see WM/H move to 1500+ pts as the standard game size...

Whether you pulled it out the air or Squidgy says so (if indeed he did) it still isn't so (or at least there is no evidence that it is true).

Huh? You're saying that PPP doesn't want players to buy more stuff?

You mean, ignoring the constant increase in nominal base game size from 350 (at release) to 500 (some time later) to 750 (today)?

Or is it that PPP hasn't admitted that they want larger games which sell more models?

Gabe wrote:

$45 for five plastic models - ugly assed models at that. PP has got to be the biggest "emperor has no clothes" company going. Most of their range is sub-par, a few par and one or two exceptional models (usually ruined by being a PITA to build). Ug ug ug ugly sculpting.

I think you're in the minority on this one. PP has some poor sculpts (especially the early stuff), but on the whole, most people would agree that their stuff looks really good.

Nah, I agree. PP can and has made some pretty nice models, but their consistency is VERY lacking in the good looking aesthetic department. And if it is a good sculpt, they ruin it with a bad pose (see: newest circle "rockem sockem robot" goatman).

I also agree that charging the same price for a plastic kit that was previously metal is quite disturbing. I realize GW has pulled that malarky in the past ($50 termies) but my reasons for calling BS are this:

PP sadly announces that due to increasing metal prices, that they have to increase their products prices. Ok, we deal with it because we as consumers understand that this niche hobby takes more than pressing a button to make. Then they release a plastic kit for previously released models at the same price range and the people who put up with increased metal prices are looking around going "So how about reducing the box set price a few bucks to show us how the cost of plastic materials isn't going up?" I guess it is nice that consumers arent paying $80 for those same models, but still it is quite a steep price to pay for those.

We shall see how well V2 of warmahordes is going to be received (so far all I have heard from the fanboys is good things about proposed changes), but I do think that many people who do enjoy metal models will be perturbed that they are being charged the same for supposedly 'subpar' plastic.

Time will tell of course, but IMO they sure as hell better make a full unit be included in the box (all models needed to field a full sized unit) for the price they are charging. I know I sure as hell am not going to get back into the game if I have to pay $90 to field 5 plastic Legion of Everblight Raptors like I do right now for metal. I would EXPECT that very same 5 man cav unit to cost no more than $30-40 especially considering how PP is pushing for larger scale games every year.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Huh? You're saying that PPP doesn't want players to buy more stuff?

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Overall sales is not the issue here adding 200-300% to the standard game size, and thus the minimum startup cost, which has changed little since Prime. 500 point games are still common outside of official Tournaments. 350 has been dead outside of beginer games ever since PP had the model range to support 500 point games (a few months after Prime was released).

I have almost 3,000 points of Cryx so it wouldn't affect me but it just isn't a viable regular game size under the current rules and there's nothing to suggest that it's changing any time soon.

Whilst we're making such comparisons my Ork list got 10% smaller (required 10% more models) after the new codex was released and I'm expecting similar from my Imperial Guard. I don't have a problem with that as I have over 10,000 points of Imperial Guard so I'll just get to use more of it (if I start playing 40k again).

Hellfury wrote:I also agree that charging the same price for a plastic kit that was previously metal is quite disturbing.

Except this isn't anything like what they're doing since Bastions have never been released before ever in ANY form. Nor is this the same price for the same kit even if that were the case. PP Medium base models generally come in minimum units(3 for Bastions). These are a max sized unit for less than the price($50) of a min unit of comparable metal units and about half the cost of a full unit(PP stated that that Bastions would cost $89.50 for a full size unit in metal).

Voodoo Boyz wrote:And in conclusion, some of the anti-PP crowd has stated stuff about "what happened to Metal Models 4EVAH!"

I'll be the first one in line to call people who want metal models insane.

Go Plastics.

I made that very statement, but don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-PP. Cygnar, Khador, and Trolls for me. Thing is, I have always hated the page 5 blustering and cock-sure attitude that comes with Warmahordes. Posturing and acting all big and bad is ridiculous, we're playing with toys here people.

I just find it deliciously ironic that PP is basically transforming itself into GW's business model (not necessarily rules model though), after it went on and on about the Evil Empire and all that nonsense. INJECTION MOULD LIKE YOU GOT A PAIR!

Agamemnon2 wrote:Given the expense of plastic moulding, i wonder why they chose the Exemplars as the first plastics, instead of doing a new box Winter Guard or Trenchers, something that would theoretically sell more than expensive elite models.

My thought is that Winter Guard and Trenchers have been out since Prime, and most established players would already have units of them. If they're going to switch to plastic, they might as well start with a new, medium based unit to see how it goes over. Seeing as Bastions were the only medium based infantry in Legends (that I remember) they got the plastic treatment by default. At least that's my thoughts on it.

Personally, I think the models are excellent. Beautiful sculpts, lots of detail. The shoulder pads are supposed to be big, same with the armor, that's why they're Bastions! The sprue shots are due to be released in the next No Quarter magazine, from what I've heard.

And given that you get a full unit for the cost, that's not a bad price at all. Bit much to swallow all at once, but when you look at the prices of their other miniatures and comparable units/sculpts from other manufacturers, it's not bad at all.

George Spiggott wrote:Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Overall sales is not the issue here adding 200-300% to the standard game size, and thus the minimum startup cost, which has changed little since Prime. 500 point games are still common outside of official Tournaments. 350 has been dead outside of beginer games ever since PP had the model range to support 500 point games (a few months after Prime was released).

Are you?

If you talk about minimum startup cost, then you compare a WM/H starter with AoBR, and you're at the same price point. 40k just gives you 500 pts instead of 300-350. Both systems play larger games, but minimums are met with each starter.

Either way, both companies would want players to play larger games. Unlike PPP, GW is successful at this with a 1500-pt base for 40k3+ (was ~750 equivalent in 40k2, with 2000+ being heralded via Apoc). Perhaps in a couple years, PPP will figure out how to scale the game further with Mk.2.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Are you?... <snip> ....Perhaps in a couple years, PPP will figure out how to scale the game further with Mk.2.

This is just a bunch of supposition and pseudo maths; you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Feel free to find me some evidence that PP wish to increase the size of the standard game to a multi Warcaster setup.

I have to agree with George on this one...True in order to play an Epic warcaster you have to play 750pt battles, but no where in the rules or over time has PP made the game larger.

I play nothing but 500pt games, which to me is the sweet spot. You have enough, Jacks, Solo's and units to be fairly diverse and get a good game in within a reasonable amount of time. With the rules the way they are now, playing anything more than 750pts is rather crazy.

From the beginning Warmachine has been geared toward small skirmish battles along enemy lines, no full blown conflicts that you see in GW's games. This was one of the major draws for me was small skirmish level games where I don't need 50 plus models to play which will cost me around 500 dollars or more.

yea, beyond the epic casters getting people to play at 750, in the years i've played warmachine/hordes, i've never really felt a push to go beyond 500 point games.

And at that size, you can play games fairly quickly, without needing nearly as much space as say a 40k game, so instead of feeling like something you need an evening and a large table to do, its more like something you could do while waiting on a pizza to be delivered

edit-cut back on unneeded rambling

Wow. And I though the shoulder pads on many Chronopia miniatures were horribly bad.

Great to be in plastic, but Lameness Factor = 11.