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Howard A Treesong wrote:Two editions have passed since the DE had a codex.

A few months ago, that was true of Guard. That is still true of Space Wolves. Considering how many armies were left behind in third edition, being two editions old does not really mean much. Fourth edition was a phenomenal screw-up, nothing more. If they use fifth edition to get everything back on track, we may not see this sort of thing again. I hope.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Reduce the number of Codices to a core

Then have 5 'Advanced' Codices

I'm assuming that the core Codices would be the only tournament-legal Codices, while "Advanced" would be banned from tournament play?

Because we know from experience that there is no way in hell that GW would be able to do any decent sort of balancing job on any thing that complex for tournaments.
____

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:DE are in danger of being dropped, if only from terminal neglect.

Isn't neglect the path that led to the squats being umm...'squatted'?

Yup. The DE are following the Squats in that exact fashion. I've even got a 2E Codex promising a Squat Codex that never appeared... The difference between then and now is that the DE Codex is still playable under 5E rules because GW stopped mucking with the rules that would have "broken" the DE. As long as GW's main rules don't advance to a point at which DE aren't playable, GW can wait yet another edition before having to deal with the DE in one fashion or another.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yup. The DE are following the Squats in that exact fashion. I've even got a 2E Codex promising a Squat Codex that never appeared... The difference between then and now is that the DE Codex is still playable under 5E rules because GW stopped mucking with the rules that would have "broken" the DE. As long as GW's main rules don't advance to a point at which DE aren't playable, GW can wait yet another edition before having to deal with the DE in one fashion or another.

The 'Spain rumours' thread seems to indicate that development of the DE may have ground to a halt which seems reminiscent of the way the Squats did after a few test pieces in the early 90s. Some people seemed to think that once development started it was some unstoppable force up to eventual release, but of course the plug can be pulled any time if they feel the need to cut their losses.

Disappointed... I saw the word "squat" in the title of this thread and thought they were bringing back Space Dwarves. (I guess I should brush up on the lingo, huh?)

Even Olley's Armies has gone now.

http://www.olleysarmies.co.uk/galleryscrunts.html

Since we're wishlisting...

Squat the Necrons and Tau (just because. Necrons being behind,er, everything was silly. And Tau? Talk about not fitting in!)

Squat the marines into 2 mega-codices (Codex and Not)

Go back to (if we were ever there!) one Imperial and one Xenos for as long as possible before 2 Xenos.

Though really, people need to vote with their wallets for that to happen...

If anything gets squatted it will be done on sales potential.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean that's why there are so many SM codexes. It's all this guy's fault.

Dear Teh Space Emporer,

Recently there have been a lot of stories circulating about the new stuff that enemies are getting, such as Ork Stompas, Ork Battlewagons, Ork this, Ork that and Ork the other.

To be honest I’m a bit fed up. It’s not fair for any aliens, xenos, Chaos, Daemons, mutants, heretics, psykers, and everyone who is against you, to get any new stuff before the loyal Imperial armies get something.

And when I say the loyal Imperial armies, you know I mean Space Mariens.

So, please, mighty Emporer and father of all Mareins! Please will you make the next five codexes be Marnies codexes?

We haven’t had Space Wolves yet, and then we need Space Sharks, then Ultramariens could do with an update, then Dark Templars, then Imporial Fists, then Vanilla Mariens, then Urtlramarnies. I am sure you can think of some more.

With much Luv’n’Devotion...


Marneus Calgar
Ultramarine Primus

PS: It’s OK if you just do Utralmrieans. No-one cares about the others, really.

The funny thing about army popularity is that GW has a fair amount of control over this, based on how interesting and powerful they make an army. If they really put their minds to it, they could make Dark Eldar a very popular army (or Necrons, or whatever).

Most of the armies that are less popular now are due to a lack of anything new coming out for them. Face it, we get bored with the same old thing year after year, and we want to see old stuff with a fresh face to get excited about.

I don't think anything should be squated. I think the reverse should happen. I think things should be brought back to 40k. There has been more than squats that have been left to the way side. I want to see Squats, Genesteeler Hybrids, Adeptus Arbites, Lost and the Damn, and anything else be taken and elevated to having full and proper codecies. I want to see everything updated. "Squating" anything is ultimately a step backwards. If GW wanted to do anything to drive people to play marines more than ever they'd squat a race, because everyone know the last race GW would "squat" are marines.

I think people are over reacting a bit to the rumour that the Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Black Templars lists are being worked on right now. The design process in not as linear as people believe it is. Of course these books are being worked on, they share one big thing in common; they are all Space Marines, it makes sense to develop them together with the new Ultradex as a guide. This way we will get a more consistent power level (everyone’s always crying about codex creep).
When the DA book came out, Jervis said they had developed the BA list alongside it, but DA were released because the miniature development was more complete and there was more sales potential in the “robed monkish” marines than the red “jump packish” marines. Just because they are working on all these lists simultaneously does not mean they are going to release them one after another.
I know for a fact that 2010 is going to be a very Xenos heavy year. When the Dark Eldar do eventually come out (and they will) and people see the models that have been re-designed from the ground up and realize how much work is required to develop an entirely new range of models and update rules that are right now three editions old (the second 3rd edition list released, not counting the 3.5 update ‘dex) and make it all marketable so that all their hard work is not for nothing. It’s a monumental task, and they have put in the hands of the man who basically invented “space elves”. Between his staggering skill as a conceptualist and his amazing attention to detail, symmetry and style as a sculptor, I have faith that all will be forgiven for making us wait as long as we have.
Am I a Jes Goodwin’s fanboy for saying that?
HELLZ YA! Proud of it!
They need to be sure that the army they release for the Dark Eldar will sell and sell as well as any of the other Xenos armies; which all combined are a drop in the bucket compared to how many space marines they sell.
So every time a new marine model or book or accessory comes out, just be happy that the sales generated by those items allows GW to spend time and resources developing the truly interesting armies that populate the 40k universe.


Dosadi

I think they'll 'squat' themselves in favor of some alliance that combines GW, Privateer Press, AND Reaper Miniatures...

...It shall be called PrivaReapeWorkshop, and it shall specialize in the ultimate game format..... POGS!


Seriously, I don't think they'll squat any of what they have right now. I think they're just taking their time with support for some of the older stuff. Then again I've only been playing for like a year and a half so maybe there's something I'm not seeing.

If anything I reckon they should add some new armies. When you look at the codexes, the Daemonhunters and the Dark Eldar are some of the best armies, they are massively overrated, I've never lost a battle yet with my Daemonhunters, although I have only been playing since Christmas, and my friend has Dark Eldar and he seems to win on nearly every occasion that isn't against me!

In 7th Edition there will be 20 marine codexes (including spiky).

The 21 codex will be the oldest and the most underpowered. It will be Codex Xenos. Written by Jervis naturally.

Entries will look like this.

HQ Xeno Leader -250pts

Hq Fluff: Xenos leader have a myraid of forms; some are skinny and psychic others are big monsters. Whatever they are use the profile below..

On topic : I would really like them to squat Marines, Orks, and Xenos leaving Guard and chaos Guard.

I find it dumb to squat any armies to be perfectly honest. It's a pointless exercise unless those armies are too overpowered/underpowered in such a way that they are no longer playable in an average game. Otherwise, you're simply taking out a portion of your community for no apparent reason.

On the topic of Space Marines, of course people are going to give them the most crap. Fact of the matter is, they're arguably the most popular army in the game. Those on top take the most crap. For a while I remember a few years ago when Chaos took the most crap because people felt their Codex was far too overpowered and everyone switched armies to them. I'm not going to lie. I started into the hobby as a Chaos player then also made a regular Space Marine army. I later wanted to try something different so I put together an IG Army and finally, for pure interest alone, I had gotten about 2k points of Necrons due to ease of army building/compiling/painting.

I had mentioned in a post a while ago about codices like that, that getting an update as often as Space Marines (and even guard) get can be a double edged sword. I've gone through 2 Chaos Codices and now getting back into again after a few years of not playing, again don't have an updated codex. I've gone through about 3 or so iterations of a Dark Angels Codex, and 4 (counting Catachans) iterations of a Guard Codex. I was elated to know that my old Necrons codex was still viable and I didn't have to go out and spend another 30 bucks on a book that just flipped around a few things (DA) OR completely reworked everything so I need new models (IG). I'm debating on whether or not I even want to get a new Chaos Codex or just sell off my old Armies.

So, in conclusion(as a lot of that might have ended up jumbled) just remember, all these updates bring positives and negatives to each armies. Sometimes, one should be happy to be able to hang tight to an old favorite and know that their army isn't going to get messed with.

Elric of Grans wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:Two editions have passed since the DE had a codex.

A few months ago, that was true of Guard. That is still true of Space Wolves. Considering how many armies were left behind in third edition, being two editions old does not really mean much. Fourth edition was a phenomenal screw-up, nothing more. If they use fifth edition to get everything back on track, we may not see this sort of thing again. I hope.

...4th Edition...that means they were only 1 Edition behind, as are MOST armies at this point.

According to Dakka Articles:
5 armies are from third edition.
6 armies are from fourth edition
5 armies are from fifth edition.

1/3 of the armies are two editions behind. This is what the problem is, not one edition behind. When fifth edition first came out, practically all armies were at least one edition behind: that is their business model!

karnaeya wrote:In 7th Edition there will be 20 marine codexes (including spiky).

Nah, we need only one more: Imperial Fists. We need Yellow Marines so we can have Space Marine Power Rangers!
*explosion of coloured smoke*
Calgar: Red Ranger, the forces of KAOS are closing in on us. I tried throwing the book at them, but they pased their save. What do we do now?
Dante: BLOOD FOR THE BLOO... I mean, we shall need to do the honourable thing and face them head on. Green Ranger?
Azrael: I have a plan, but it is a secret.
Dante: Damn, plan `b' it is then. Yellow Ranger, time for a noble sacrifice!
Vladimir: But I only just joined the Space Marine Power Rangers!
Dante: Yes, at the sacrifice of Ranger Grey. Fear not, Ranger White will replace you!
Helbrecht: Bwahaha, the Space Marine Power Rangers appear to be in trouble!
Dante: It's... Ranger Black! What are you doing here, you traitor of all CHAPTER?
Abaddon: Umm, guys, have you forgotten about me?
Helbrecht: I am saddenned. The weakness of the Space Marine Power Rangers has brought tears to my eyes. You are not fit to be my rivals if you cannot handle KAOS!
Calgar: Traitor! If only you had listened to Daddy, you too could have been a Space Marine Power Ranger and we would not have to listen to Nosferatu here on the soul basis that he wears red!
Dante: Shut up, Ranger Blue! Ranger Black, we detest these acusations you make. SKULLS FOR THE SKU... I mean, if you stand before us, we shall not back down. By CHAPTER, we shall see you submit!
Abaddon: I will just head home now. Sorry guys, the Black Crusade is called off.
Kharn: Aww, I wanted to hit something!
Helbrecht: CHAPTER has grown weak. Weak, I tell you! I shall never forgive your weakness. Draw your weapons, for today I show you the limits of CHAPTER!
*explosion of black smoke*
Azrael: (monologue) As urgent as it felt to me, I decided not to tell my brothers that I had again forgotten to `go' before we left. This warm yet embarassing feeling along my inner leg shall have to be kept a secret from all.
*explosion of green smoke*
Vladimir: (monologue) Screw these guys! I wish I had never joined the Space Marine Power Rangers if it were to come to this!
*explosion of yellow smoke*
Calgar: (monologue) I am so telling Daddy on these guys when we get back! He will remind them how important it is to use the book.
*explosion of blue smoke*
Dante: (monologue) I hope the camera is on my good side right now...
*explosion of red smoke*
Logan: (monologue) I really wish the guys would stop thinking I am dead. I am standing right behind them after all.
*explosion of grey smoke*
Narration: The Space Marine Power Rangers turned away the forces of KAOS, but a new threat has appeared. Can they uphold the honour of CHAPTER, or will the old ways of LEGION strike back? Find out next week on... SPACE MARINE POWER RANGERS!!!

EDIT: wrong name.

...WTH was that?...

In Qatar I have a group of 3 guys that I play with, and another few that I know of.

Me and the three are:
Orks
Nids
Eldar
Chaos, but recently stopped in favour of Orks, cause tey rulez!1!

The other guys play:
Space Marines (not sure which)
Tau

So, out of a random selection of six we get 2 space marines chapters. One of them has switched to orks. The other isn't able to get models (his parents are Mormons or something).

Space Marines can suck my monkey's farts.

Elric of Grans wrote:According to Dakka Articles:
5 armies are from third edition.
6 armies are from fourth edition
5 armies are from fifth edition.

1/3 of the armies are two editions behind. This is what the problem is, not one edition behind. When fifth edition first came out, practically all armies were at least one edition behind: that is their business model!

True, but I personally ignore Demon Hunters, Sisters of Battle, and Inquisitors as forces. That leaves Necrons and Dark Eldar? (correct me, politely, if wrong).
Demon Hunters, Sisters of Battle, and Inquisitors should never really have been separate armies...

I think both the Dark Eldar and Necrons need some serious love, Necrons just to make them more diverse and interesting, and Dark Eldar just need to appear on "the scene" again. The other three listed before are too much like Marines to feel like they need an update anytime in the near future.

Sisters of Battle have been an army since 2E, with proper Codices every edition (counting WH as their 4E Codex). Sisters are *definitely* a force, and Fluff-wise, far more numerous than the Space Marines. Sisters should definitely return as a separate army in 5E.

Now, I'll grant you Inquisition / Daemonhunters / Grey Knights are arguable as separate forces, due to the sparsity of their model ranges. But they've been around with rules and such since RT, and should at least be considered as Forces of the Inqusition / Imperial Allies. Daemonhunters can probably soldier on as an Allies force for the time being, until GW figures out what to do with them.

DE and Necrons have entirely different problems. Necrons have rules problem, because they just don't fit into the streamlined design of 5E, while DE have a Fluff problem as to why they are relevant (like DH).

Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, Daemonhunters (Grey Knights and Inquisition), Necrons, Witch Hunters (Sisters and Inquisition).

Sisters have been a `complete' army since Second Edition, before Dark Eldar, Necrons or Tau were conceptualised. Neither Grey Knights nor Inquisition have ever been complete armies on their own, but, like Sisters, have been a part of the game since Rogue Trader.

EDIT:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Sisters are *definitely* a force, and Fluff-wise, far more numerous than the Space Marines.

I have never read any fluff confirming that. Each of the Order Majoris are larger than a single Chapter of Space Marines, but there are only six of them, compared to 1000 Chapters. There is an `infinite' number of Order Minoris, of wildly varying sizes, but I do not know of anything official stating that these add up to be more numerous than the Space Marines.

Asmodai wrote:Under the "Asmodai System" GW releases a Codex every 2 months. Every army gets an update at least once per year with Space Marines hitting late every November for the Christmas rush. Codex releases don't make or break the company so special releases can be interspersed. (A new edition of the core rules every 2 years would be about right.)

Like in Magic, each Codex release introduces some new models/rules and 'retires' others (out of tournament play, but you can still use last year's rules for it in friendly games).

This provides a cycle of new and fresh models to buy, means that truly broken builds won't last a year and means that the Vets who currently have everything will have an excuse to buy new models.

Urk, what a horrible idea. It typically takes me a year to paint up an army - I'd never have an army tournament-ready!

The difference between 40k and Magic is that you don't have to paint Magic cards.

Neil wrote:

Asmodai wrote:Under the "Asmodai System" GW releases a Codex every 2 months. Every army gets an update at least once per year with Space Marines hitting late every November for the Christmas rush. Codex releases don't make or break the company so special releases can be interspersed. (A new edition of the core rules every 2 years would be about right.)

Like in Magic, each Codex release introduces some new models/rules and 'retires' others (out of tournament play, but you can still use last year's rules for it in friendly games).

This provides a cycle of new and fresh models to buy, means that truly broken builds won't last a year and means that the Vets who currently have everything will have an excuse to buy new models.

Urk, what a horrible idea. It typically takes me a year to paint up an army - I'd never have an army tournament-ready!

The difference between 40k and Magic is that you don't have to paint Magic cards.

This is one of the reasons that I quit magic: I still like using Apocalypse.

GW will produce new codexes according to how they judge user demand. They are in business to sell models.

From a game variety viewpoint if Necrons and SoBs or whatever army play differently to other armies, they are worth having a new codex.

dark eldar are a real decent list fragile yeah, but they have some serious firepower and there quite handy in the assault too, they dont need a codex update

Unless they somehow made the Dark Eldar the coolest army in 40k; it seems like a huge waste of effort and $$$ to develop Dark Eldar when money could be spent on the cash cow that is Space Marines. Dark Eldar were a series of horribly executed business decisions and if they vanished into nothingness like the Squats not many more people would care.

To be honest if any armies were to be squatted then they will take out eldar, dark eldar and chaos (marines and daemons), and then claim that the Rhana Dhandra happened

These threads ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS make me laugh at pretty much... all of you. Lets start a huge flame spam fest and beat our chests about who right and whos wrong, why this army sucks and why this one should go away. SQUAT ARMY SQUAT ARMY. GW sucks and I KNOW the way to fix their screwups.
YET, this is why I laugh, Under most of your sigs is "this is how huge my army is" you still not only one GW army, but SEVERAL armies. Seriously you guys that are doing what I stated above, really need to go back down into your basement lairs, and suck on your thumbs a little longer.
I dont care what they chop, what gets a new codex (yes SM are boring but live with the popularity) just play the damn game like you obviously already are. Thats what I do. I played chaos and loved it. Then IMO they slaughtered it with the current codex, so I play a different army now. Just go with it and be happy that we have a hobby we can enjoy and dump loads of cash on.

two_heads_talking wrote:The problem with Gw is that each of us, everyone thinks we could do it better, and given the typical comment, I'd disagree with that assessment. Not only could most of us do no better, but I'd venture to say we'd, most of us, do a an even worse job..

That's the problem as I see it.. Too many knucklehead, tongue waggers with no clue trying to tell someone else what to do..

That's like that 16 year old who walks up to a professional basketball player (like Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Labron James, Dwight Howard, and telling them, you know what, if you did this like this, you'd be a better player.. perhaps they just might be right, but either of those 4 are doing well enough without the input..)

Reiterated for truth. You only have to visit a Rules Development or Proposed Rules forum on the Internet to be boggled by what the average fan thinks is game development.

As far as Codex's go, GW produces Space Marine, then something else. Then Space Marine, then something else. etc.

They are banking on you all buying more stuff to fill out your uberarmies, and then to cap that off bank on you going for gold and buying massive amounts of scenery to fill out the massive amounts of armies that you have aquired.

New races are almost a given, but with our current financial situation, the tried and true are going to keep getting the love while the unknown quotent of the "New "armies are at best only getting preevolutions and planning.

Until the economy comes up for air, you people arn't going to be seeing any Dark Eldar or anyone else new anytime soon. Space Marines... Its whats for dinner.

Jervis claimed that they were going to continue to support the established armies. This would mean the 9 standard, with a few nich armies along for the ride, depepnding on thier sales.
We all know how much his word is worth, though. Jack and and Jack just left town.

Plantestrike will introduce the new "Metagame". Large scale floorhammer armies that will be keeping the average player amused for the next 6-7 months or so, hopefully by then, they bank on the other armies.

- Scenery isn't as hard to come up with as a new codex army.
- The resources are already in effect, "Tied up" in Planetstrike.
- The player base plays your basic Space Marine armies, but there are already enough of the aliens that any good hero needs to kick around.
- Financially, GW cannot allot resources to the unknown at this time.

Store closings, Layoffs, the last couple of quarters, and the "New and Improved sales model" do not allot any resources to NEW armies. I wouldn't so much as say that they are taking a "Squat", they are just laying low and weathering the financial storm that they are in, along with every other company.

We are talking about the companies survival. If you were in charge of a company that has been to the last couple of months taking the piss, and then found yourself in one of the worst world economic situations that a company can be in, you would do the same. This doesn't mean that the stuff isn't coming out, it means that they have the time to wargame the sales, establish the condexs and rules for the armies, and then continue to work the creation system of the new armies. " what works" what doesn't work" evolution of the race itself, designing new units and models, etc.etc.etc. This will in turn give you all a better product, unless GW pisses its time away and just lives in its own little dreamworld.

Privateer Press is gunning for GW's shortcomings, so you KNOW that they as well arn't wasting thier time. Along with the other Flames of War, SOTTR, and the perry brother's historicals, GW well and truly needs to have a "come to jesus meeting" and figure out if they truly want to survive.

What do you mean by a "new" army?

Do you mean a completely new army like, say the Pan Fo.

Or a simple update update of an existing army like Tau.

Or a major revision of a very old army like DE or SoB?