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You really have got the wrong end of the stick on this one, haven't you?

The rules you're quoting pertain to the use of Allied Space Marine units in an army built from the Witch Hunters/ Daemonhunters Codex. There's a restrictive list of units you can take for your Allied Space Marine contingent within those two Codexes, and if your WH/ DH army includes units with the Adepta Sororitas or Grey Knights special rules you can't use Allied Space Marines at all. For example, if my Witch Hunters army consisted of an Inquisitor Lord and two units of Stormies, I could take Allied Space Marine units from the list on p.26. If my army consisted of a Canoness and two units of Stormies, I wouldn't be able to take Allied Space Marine units from the list on p.26 because the rules for taking Allied Space Marine units given on P.25 state that I can't take them if there are Adepta Sororitas units in my army, and the Canoness is an Adepta Sororitas unit. The same is true of the Daemonhunters Codex.

The rules that allow you to take Adepta Sororitas units and Grey Knights in a Space Marine army are on the box-outs on p.21 of the DH Codex and p.25 of the WH one; the little grey box on the far right of the page entitled "Using [x] Hunters As Allies". The only restrictions are that these Allies can't be used to fill out compulsory FoC slots (i.e, the 1 HQ and 2 Troops), only a limited number of Force Org slots are available to WH/ DH units taken as Allies, and no Heavy Support choices may be taken. That means I could make an army consisting of Vulkan, two Tactical Squads, 2 Sisters Squads and a unit of Seraphim, and it'd be perfectly legal.

Hell, I could make an army consisting of Vulkan, a Canoness and Celestian retinue, a unit of Elite Celestians, a unit of Elite Grey Knight Terminators, two Scout squads, two Sisters squads, two Grey Knights squads, a unit of Dominions and a unit of Fast Attack Grey Knights, and that would be legal. No special rules would need to be dropped, the Allied units would function exactly as stated in their Codex (i.e the Sisters would get their 4+ save against psychic powers and would be able to use Faith Points and the GKs would get The Shrouding, The Aegis, etc).

So yeah, to summarise; Allied Space Marines can't be used in a Witch Hunters/ Daemonhunters army that includes Sisters of Battle or Grey Knights, but Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle can be used as Allies in a Codex: Space Marines army thanks to the rules in the "Using [x] As Allies" box-outs.

Page 25 of the WH Codex

Using Witch Hunters with other army lists is the title of the section. This would mean that it's only rules for using Witch Hunters with other armies, and not about inducting other forces into the Witch Hunters army, because these rules are already stated on page 26.

This includes a section that is entitled

Allied Space Marines

In this section it states this;

"Allied Space Marines may not be used if any Adepta Sororitas units are present in the Witch Hunters force."

The Witch Hunters still have a force as I said in the previous post, and thus it counts as playing two armies, and using the two different codexes for units and wargear. Thus the rule still stands, and I don't see how you could ignore it, because it's in the section that you get all of your rules for allying using Space Marines as the parent or child. Aka, you can't just ignore the rest of the page and just read the Grey Box because of the fact that even though Space Marines are the parent army, they are still two seperate forces.

Kreedos wrote:

Tri wrote:USING INDUCTED IMPERIAL GUARD OR ALLIED SPACE MARINE CONTIGENTS
explain use of allies
Allied Space Marines(sub heading of the above)
Allied Space marines may not be used if any (Grey Knights / Sisters of Battle) units are present in the army


So basically all your rules that stop SM army having Sisters of battle (/Grey Knights) in them stem from this while ignoring that this is all about using SM as the allies.

I don't understand what you are saying, are you saying you can, or can't?

Sarcasm doesn't transmit well. You may use Grey Knights / Sisters of Battle in a Space Marine army because the rules for them not being use able can only be found as part of using rules for Space Marines as allies in a WH/DH army.

No, Allied Space Marines means taking Space Marines from the allies list and including them in a non-space marine army.

Sarcasm doesn't transmit well. You may use Grey Knights / Sisters of Battle in a Space Marine army because the rules for them not being use able can only be found as part of using rules for Space Marines as allies in a WH/DH army.

I wasn't using sarcasm, the way you stated what you said was just confusing, I wasn't meaning to offend.

Kreedos wrote:

Tri wrote:
Sarcasm doesn't transmit well. You may use Grey Knights / Sisters of Battle in a Space Marine army because the rules for them not being use able can only be found as part of using rules for Space Marines as allies in a WH/DH army.

I wasn't using sarcasm, the way you stated what you said was just confusing, I wasn't meaning to offend.

.... my sarcasm, at your use of rules, ignoring their context ....

.... my sarcasm, at your use of rules, ignoring their context ....

I wasn't ignoring their context, and pretty much everything you asked me to produce I answered with my opinion 5 posts up from this one. Page 25 is all about using Witch Hunters with other armies, thus all rules listed on the page cannot be ignored. Page 26 is about taking other armies into a Witch Hunters army. They're two seperate things, and in both of them it says that you can't take allied Space Marines with Adepta Sororitas units.

@Kreedos:
You can use DH/WH in three ways:
A. As an army in their own right.
B. As an army that includes allies from SM/IG books.
C. As allies themselves in an army made from an SM/IG book.

The rules you refer to are for case B, under the heading "Using Inducted Imperial Guard or Allied Space Marine Contingents." Case C uses the rules "Using Witch Hunters (or DH) as Allies" which allows units from the WH/DH list to be included in other lists - what we're discussing here.

The rules that say you cannot use allied space marines in the Case C army are to prevent you from taking "allies to your allies" if you see what I mean.

Kreedos wrote:

.... my sarcasm, at your use of rules, ignoring their context ....

I wasn't ignoring their context, and pretty much everything you asked me to produce I answered with my opinion 5 posts up from this one. Page 25 is all about using Witch Hunters with other armies, thus all rules listed on the page cannot be ignored. Page 26 is about taking other armies into a Witch Hunters army. They're two seperate things, and in both of them it says that you can't take allied Space Marines with Adepta Sororitas units.

Page 25 just says that if you bring WH units as allies those allies can't themself be drawn through the rules on page 26. They have to be WH units. No allying Inducted guards with space marines or vice versa.

Kreedos wrote:They're two seperate things, [b]and in both of them it says that you can't take allied Space Marines with Adepta Sororitas units.

In a Codex: Space Marine army, the Space Marines aren't Allied.

EDIT: Box out, p.25 of the WH Codex:

"In keeping with the many possibilities for the forces of the Ordo Hereticus to appear within Space Marine and Imperial Guard forces, Witch Hunters units can be used as Allies in any of the following Codex armies:

* Space Marines, including variant armies such as Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Salamanders and other loyalist Index Astartes Chapters.
* Imperial Guard and it's variants, such as Catachan Jungle Fighters and Armageddon Steel Legion
* Daemonhunters."

Then further down the box-out:

"If you have an existing Warhammer 40,000 army, this is the simplest way of incorporating an Inquisitor or a squad of Sisters Of Battle."



There are no restrictions on which units you can take as Allies in a Space Marines or Imperial Guard army, only what units you can use as Allies in a WH or DH army. I know of nobody else in the whole of 40K who's ever questioned the validity of taking Sisters or Grey Knights as Allies in a Space Marine army, but then again I've never seen someone get so confused over what are, after all, extremely straight-forward rules before either.

Frank Fugger wrote:

Kreedos wrote:They're two seperate things, [b]and in both of them it says that you can't take allied Space Marines with Adepta Sororitas units.

In a Codex: Space Marine army, the Space Marines aren't Allied.

Good point. Alright guys I give up, I gave a go, but it seems I'm wrong on this one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

"I know of nobody else in the whole of 40K who's ever questioned the validity of taking Sisters or Grey Knights as Allies in a Space Marine army, but then again I've never seen someone get so confused over what are, after all, extremely straight-forward rules before either.

Completely and utterly unnecessary in a friendly rules debate, I never tried to flame you or offend you, all I did was defend my side of the debate and even after I gave up and admitted I was wrong. What a jerkoff.

Rules from a codex are meant for that "army" (in this case the SM "army"). The fact allies might be taken doesn't mean the allies are granted access to each others codices.

Each codex is written from a particular point of view and as such the verbiage reflex this point of view. To always spell out "the Space Marine army" every time army is mentioned in the Space Marine codex would make the codex verbose and someone irritating to read.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Each codex is written from a particular point of view and as such the verbiage reflex this point of view. To always spell out "the Space Marine army" every time army is mentioned in the Space Marine codex would make the codex verbose and someone irritating to read.

If they wanted to make a distinction, they would just define 'army' and 'Army' and use the appropriate capitalisation.

Kreedos wrote:Completely and utterly unnecessary in a friendly rules debate, I never tried to flame you or offend you, all I did was defend my side of the debate and even after I gave up and admitted I was wrong. What a jerkoff.

Would you like a cookie and a hug?

Would you like a cookie and a hug?

No, I'd rather just have a friendly intelligent rules debate instead of a rules debate consisting of insulting sarcastic jabs. When using the latter, the intelligent part of the rules debate goes out the window, and you're just left with a debate full of garbage and insults.

Here's to you and your lack of intelligence Frank. Oh, and I'll take the cookie, but I'll pass on the hug. Thanks

Kreedos wrote:No, I'd rather just have a friendly intelligent rules debate instead of insulting sarcastic jabs, when doing so the intelligent part of the rules debate goes out the window.

Then you need to not bimble into a thread and start yakking on about how your misconceptions regarding rules are correct, despite the fact that... like, every single person who responded told you you were wrong and explained to you why that was.

Here's to you and your lack of intelligence Frank.

COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY IN FRIENDLY RULES DEBATE BAWWW

Kreedos wrote:

Would you like a cookie and a hug?

No, I'd rather just have a friendly intelligent rules debate instead of a rules debate consisting of insulting sarcastic jabs. When using the latter, the intelligent part of the rules debate goes out the window, and you're just left with a debate full of garbage and insults.

Here's to you and your lack of intelligence Frank. Oh, and I'll take the cookie, but I'll pass on the hug. Thanks

Welcome to dakka, We all get things wrong (apart from Gwar! who is misinformed). Make sure you've got it right when people start questioning it. And when you get it wrong expect some criticism. If you think its unfair go to the little yellow triangle with a "!" in it and tell a mod. They'll ether agree with you, the poster, or tell you both to behave.


Now about that hug going spare?

No hug for you. You have Calgar as your avatar.

How about when you hear the back story?!?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/240925.page

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bimble nice word

Then you need to not bimble into a thread and start yakking on about how your misconceptions regarding rules are correct, despite the fact that... like, every single person who responded told you you were wrong and explained to you why that was.

More or less "Bimbling into a thread, and yakking on" are part of going into a forum and posting on one as far as I know. "Misconceptions reguarding rules" is pretty much the reason this section of the forums exist. Most of the people I responded to, and told me their side of why the rule was correct in their opinion, and then I gave my opinion, which is more or less the definition of a debate, which is another reason this section of the forums exist. In this particular debate, I gave my side of the argument and when brought evidence of my "misconceptions", I admitted I was wrong. Also, pointing out lack of respect is much different than BAWWWing, but hey I'll take it if I get a free cookie out of it, and Tri can get his hug, we all go home happy in the end.

So, as far as I knew, posting my views and debating an issue is why we write paragraphs on this internet forum. I'm so sorry to inconvenience you with my bimbling and what not, but you always had the freedom to not answer my posts. Apparently I outraged you personally to the point you felt you needed to be the hero of this thread, and save everyone from my tyrannical ways. Bravo good sir.

Now, I've got to look up what the hell bimble means.

Edit: 1. (mainly British) A gentle, meandering walk with no particular haste or purpose.

Thanks Tri, now I know the insults I'm up against, even though I technically can't walk into a forum.

Kreedos wrote:So, as far as I knew, posting my views and debating an issue is why we write paragraphs on this internet forum. I'm so sorry to inconvenience you with my bimbling and what not, but you always had the freedom to not answer my posts. Apparently I outraged you personally to the point you felt you needed to be the hero of this thread, and save everyone from my tyrannical ways. Bravo good sir.

I think what actually happened was I made a comment about you being dense and you got a bit emotional about it. It's all over now, though, thank God. We can go on with our lives.

Hey, everyone is getting very off topic. If you want to continue issuing personal criticism you can open a thread in the General discussion board.
This thread strictly pertains to the use of Allying sisters in a SM force and whether Vulkan's rules apply.

If you are new to this tread, this is the original post.

Fire_hive wrote:This is something I would never attempt in tournament play, but I wanted to see your thoughts off allying Sisters of Battle w/ marines lead by Vulkan He'Stan.

Would you as a player cry foul if I activate the "twin-linked melta/flamer" chapter tactic supplied by Vulkan on my sisters (ie: a rhino full of dominios w/ 4 flamers)?

The rules state the combat tactic applies to the "army", but I also know this argument was brought up involving guard players who gave their sister squads commands (and is generally not allowed). Also, this rule depends on weather "Army" consists of what is under your force organization chart, OR the race that you are playing (which I may even be leaning towards). There is No FAQ for any of this. What do you all think about toying with this rule?

I don't want to be rude, but this last page has been completely off topic.

As a general recap, the arguments focus has drawn down to defining weather "allies" are a part of the "army".
THX


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ALRIGHT I found a NEW clue!... maybe...

This is another rule I found in the WH codex that has similar wording to Vulkan's. I am posting this text in order to provide another example of "army" allies rule wording, while steering away from the sharp stigma Vulkans rule has attained. Its not perfect, but it may help.

Here me out with this example... if I ally 750pts of sisters with 1500pts of SM (total 2250), can I equip a "sacred Banner of the Order Militant"?

TEXT rule for Sacred Banner of the Order Militant: "... may only be used in an army of 2000pts or more". (pg.22)
TEXT rule for Vulkan "all thunder hammers in your army will count as master-crafted..."

Now... my question is; can I apply the sacred banner to my allies sisters successfully?
Allow me to explain:
If the term "army" only applies to the codex in which the rules where written (or units purchased), then I only have a 750pt Sisters army and logic deems that I cannot use the banner. If the sisters are in fact a part of the army then the banner can be applied (as well as Vulkan's rules).

If the example posted is only applicable to one instance but not another, please explain how the applied uses of army are different. Hope this will help discern a solution... or I may be about to get spammed.

Here's my take on the situation.

Taken from page 93 of the SM codex, under Vulkan's entry.

"Chapter Tactics: If you include He'stan then all units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead all thunder hammers in your army will count as master crafted, and all flamers heavy flamer, meltaguns multimeltas count as twin-linked."

The word "Instead" leads one to believe this is an exchange, so because the fact the Sisters never had the Combat Tactics special rule, they can't exchange it, or "Instead" take the Chapter Tactics rule.

Just to cover my ass, page 51 under combat tactics.

"A non-fearless Space Marine unit with this special rule can choose to automatically fail any morale check it is called upon to take."

It specifically says only Space Marines can have combat tactics in the first place, so not being able to ever have it in the Sisters part of the army, makes it so you can't make the exchange.

Kreedos wrote:The word "Instead" leads one to believe this is an exchange, so because the fact the Sisters never had the Combat Tactics special rule, they can't exchange it, or "Instead" take the Chapter Tactics rule.

You might note that every other guy that lets you swap out CT explicitly states it's an exchange.

Vulkan doesn't - all units lose Combat Tactics and all of the weapons listed gain benefits. There is no connection between those two things. The aim might ofc have been only to allow the benefits to SM vehicles, but...

Kreedos wrote:Here's my take on the situation.

Taken from page 93 of the SM codex, under Vulkan's entry.

"Chapter Tactics: If you include He'stan then all units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead all thunder hammers in your army will count as master crafted, and all flamers heavy flamer, meltaguns multimeltas count as twin-linked."

The word "Instead" leads one to believe this is an exchange, so because the fact the Sisters never had the Combat Tactics special rule, they can't exchange it, or "Instead" take the Chapter Tactics rule.

Just to cover my ass, page 51 under combat tactics.

"A non-fearless Space Marine unit with this special rule can choose to automatically fail any morale check it is called upon to take."

It specifically says only Space Marines can have combat tactics in the first place, so not being able to ever have it in the Sisters part of the army, makes it so you can't make the exchange.

Yes it is an exchange NO one has combat Tactics every one gets better weapons.

Now if it said "squads with combat Tactics lose this ability but gain better weapons" or "all weapons from codex SM are made better", you'd be right

But it doesn't its all weapons in your army and when you take sisters and Knights as allies they are part of your army.

It seems more of a loophole

RAW doesn't state you can, and leaves a debatable loophole

RAI says that all of the other Chapter Masters use the word "Exchange" and it's just worded a bit differently in Vulkan's entry, but the same in every respect. Thus it's meant for Vulkan's entry to be the same.

I'd go with the RAI on this one because the RAW is unclear, RAW doesn't solve every problem, that's why RAI exists.

Best thing is just not do it, because most opponents will try and deny you using Vulkan as such, especially in a tournament enviorment. You can debate the loophole as much as you want, but unless you want to take the chance of not being able to use it because some of your opponents don't agree with the ruling, I wouldn't take him at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Tri wrote:
But it doesn't its all weapons in your army and when you take sisters and Knights as allies they are part of your army.

You're taking the rule from the SM codex out of context to apply it to allies. The codex is written in terms of the SM army and thus the wording is with respect to the Space Marine army. Allied rules are a means of two different armies being able to be fielded at the same time. It doesn't permit rules from one to apply to rule of another.

And more to the point... it doesn't state the affect applies to allies, now does it?

Going to agree with this one.

Tri wrote:
But it doesn't its all weapons in your army and when you take sisters and Knights as allies they are part of your army.

You're taking the rule from the SM codex out of context to apply it to allies. The codex is written in terms of the SM army and thus the wording is with respect to the Space Marine army. Allied rules are a means of two different armies being able to be fielded at the same time. It doesn't permit rules from one to apply to rule of another.

And more to the point... it doesn't state the affect applies to allies, now does it?

No doesn't mention allies but since it effects all of that weapon type in the army, and Allies (while we have them) are part of the army, It still works. It may well be a mistake but till its addressed by GW Allies are part of the army and have there weapons upgraded. RAI you can argue to your hearts content.

It doesn't specifically state anywhere that it works, find me an official faq that says you can take Vulkan and Sisters together, and he gives them twin linked.

You assume it works because of your view on the subject.

It's possible VIA RAW, but it's also not possible too. I don't see how you can just saw that you can ignore the exchange because you didn't have it in the first place.

That's like saying, I'm going to trade you my Diamond for your Emerald, But I didn't have a Diamond in the first place, thanks for the Emerald.

Using common sense, and RAI both together, this issue is pretty clear. It's just a clever loophole/exploit.

Also, they aren't a part of the army, they are two seperate armies taken under one army as the parent and one as the child, they gain none of the shared rules for either army, and use seperate codexes to determine their wargear and unit choices. This alone should be enough to say that one army's codex can't gain an ability from the other's unless it specifically states that "Any squad joined with this unit gains X ability."

Also, you can't deny this wouldn't be allowed in a tournament of any respectability and magnitude.

There's no need for a FAQ when the rules already allow it. It's an exchange. Models with 'Chapter Tactics' lose them in exchange for all of the thunder hammers in the army being mastercrafted and all of the flamer and melta weapons in the army become twin-linked. Nothing says that what you're receiving in exchange for 'Chapter Tactics' only applies to those models who gave up their 'Chapter Tactics'. Quite the contrary, it specifically says it applies to the entire army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kreedos wrote:Also, you can't deny this wouldn't be allowed in a tournament of any respectability and magnitude.

The INAT FAQ v2.2 is compiled for the Adepticon tournament, one of the largest and most respected independent tournaments around and they specifically address this in their FAQ. It is allowed.