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Ghaz wrote:There's no need for a FAQ when the rules already allow it. It's an exchange. Models with 'Chapter Tactics' lose them in exchange for all of the thunder hammers in the army being mastercrafted and all of the flamer and melta weapons in the army become twin-linked. Nothing says that what you're receiving in exchange for 'Chapter Tactics' only applies to those models who gave up their 'Chapter Tactics'. Quite the contrary, it specifically says it applies to the entire army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kreedos wrote:Also, you can't deny this wouldn't be allowed in a tournament of any respectability and magnitude.

The INAT FAQ v2.2 is compiled for the Adepticon tournament, one of the largest and most respected independent tournaments around and they specifically address this in their FAQ. It is allowed.

+1

Ghaz wrote:There's no need for a FAQ when the rules already allow it. It's an exchange. Models with 'Chapter Tactics' lose them in exchange for all of the thunder hammers in the army being mastercrafted and all of the flamer and melta weapons in the army become twin-linked. Nothing says that what you're receiving in exchange for 'Chapter Tactics' only applies to those models who gave up their 'Chapter Tactics'. Quite the contrary, it specifically says it applies to the entire army.

This is debatable enough to make it not exactly set in stone, like Calgar's God of War rule. Until an official FAQ comes out, that says it's allowed, I can't agree that it's outright allowable.

Just for the record, I'm a WH/SM player myself, so I'd love for this rule to be true, but I'm not a big fan of exploits in RAW.

You burned my ass with the INAT Faq though. Touche good sir. Apparently I'm off my game today

Ok different tact why do you not think that allied WH and DH are not part of the army?

It's only 'debatable' because some people refuse to believe what's clearly written in the rules. There's no need for a FAQ that says "... yes, the rules say exactly what they say and that's what they were intended to say..."

Tri wrote:Ok different tact why do you not think that allied WH and DH are not part of the army?

Ok let me try my hand at this one.

In the grey box in the WH codex, page 25 under using Witch Hunters as Allies.

"Witch Hunters units can be included as allies in any of the following Codex armies..."

They are stated as allies, thus not part of the actual Space Marine army.

No where in the grey box on page 25 does it say you treat the allies as part of the army for any respects.

They only use their wargear and units from each seperate codex

"When using allied or inducted troops, only the basic versions of these troop types published in the appropriate codex can be used"

This is making reference to troops, but shows a signifigant split between the two armies by saying they are Allied Or Inducted.

Just like, one country is allied to another, this doesn't make them part of the same country, it just means they fight together. Just like a country, the codexes don't share resources between either, and no special rules can be gained from one codex to the other. Such as the fact Space Marines can't gain any of the WH special rules and WH can't gain any of the Space Marine rules. Why should they be able to lose something that they didn't have in the first place, to gain something in return. To quote the old saying "Nothing in life is free". Space Marine rules are meant for the Space Marine army and vice versa.

They are two seperate forces that are fighting together, but doesn't nessessarly make them part of the same army.

Also there's nothing clear about this rule, or it wouldn't be asked or debated as much as it is.

They both fill a SINGLE Force Organization chart, therefore they are a SINGLE army. It's that simple.

Ghaz wrote:They both fill a SINGLE Force Organization chart, therefore they are a SINGLE army. It's that simple.

But they can gain nor take away anything from each other.

You can't take a unit of Sisters in a SM rhino, or any of the wargear choices from the SM codex, in fact you can't take anything from the SM codex, unless you're attached to a unit that would confer such ability.

The only ability that can be construed as a special rule that applies to the entire army is Vulcan. It's obvious the rule is broken and it's an exploit, why would this be allowed just because RAW says it's possible if you read it a certain way?

And how is that relevant? It's an army wide ability. It affects the whole army.

Just like how Imperial Guard officers can order around Cannonesses and Grand Masters.

So? Are you going to claim that a Space Marine Assault Squad does not consists of Space Marines just because they don't have the option to take a Rhino? Now you're just making excuses because you know you don't have a leg to stand on.

Kreedos wrote:
Ok let me try my hand at this one.

In the grey box in the WH codex, page 25 under using Witch Hunters as Allies.

"Witch Hunters units can be included as allies in any of the following Codex armies..."

They are stated as allies, thus not part of the actual Space Marine army. (Not really it just calls them allies and says that they are include in the codexs armies ... wait they are include in the army, yay!)

No where in the grey box on page 25 does it say you treat the allies as part of the army for any respects. (see above)

They only use their wargear and units from each seperate codex

"When using allied or inducted troops, only the basic versions of these troop types published in the appropriate codex can be used"

This is making reference to troops, but shows a signifigant split between the two armies by saying they are Allied Or Inducted. (talking about allied SM and IG not about allied WH)

Just like, one country is allied to another, this doesn't make them part of the same country, it just means they fight together (UK OK? How about USA?). Just like a country, the codexes don't share resources between either, and no special rules can be gained from one codex to the other (says You. Allies are an such an example of codex sharing units). Such as the fact Space Marines can't gain any of the WH special rules and WH can't gain any of the Space Marine rules (which special rules we talking about Sister of battle rules only work on themselves any way. How ever war gear like the book of st. Lucius do). Why should they be able to lose something that they didn't have in the first place, to gain something in return. To quote the old saying "Nothing in life is free" (Free? All the space Marines just lost Combat tactics). Space Marine rules are meant for the Space Marine army and vice versa. (making things up again)

They are two seperate forces that are fighting together, but doesn't nessessarly make them part of the same army.(but they are allies in a SM army)

Also there's nothing clear about this rule, or it wouldn't be asked or debated as much as it is.

Add to the above

Ghaz wrote:So? Are you going to claim that a Space Marine Assault Squad does not consists of Space Marines just because they don't have the option to take a Rhino? Now you're just making excuses because you know you don't have a leg to stand on.

No, not really saying that at all. I'm debating to debate at this point. Tri asked me to state my arguements on why I think they're two seperate armies, and so I did, even if I'm completely wrong or not. Much like a criminal defense attorney, which is how I feel at the moment. haha

It's obvious I'm outnumbered here, and the end of the debate was the fact pointed out that the INAT faq states that it's allowed. I didn't have a leg to stand on at that point. Although not all players agree with faqs and whatnot, and like I said I'm not a big fan of most exploits, but with the mounting evidence and people against me, I have to succumb to the crowd, even if I don't completely agree with it myself.

Thus, I'll bend to the collective will and agree. WH or DH would gain Vulcan's ability. I still however, I still think it's a sort of exploit/loophole.

But in all honesty, I'm happy to be wrong in this situation, because I've got 3000 pts of WH and around 1500 pts of SM, I'll be buying Vulkan and exploiting the hell out of this till it's fixed.

Kreedos wrote:

Ghaz wrote:So? Are you going to claim that a Space Marine Assault Squad does not consists of Space Marines just because they don't have the option to take a Rhino? Now you're just making excuses because you know you don't have a leg to stand on.

No, not really saying that at all. I'm debating to debate at this point. Tri asked me to state my arguements on why I think they're two seperate armies, and so I did, even if I'm completely wrong or not. Much like a criminal defense attorney, which is how I feel at the moment. haha

It's obvious I'm outnumbered here, and the end of the debate was the fact pointed out that the INAT faq states that it's allowed. I didn't have a leg to stand on at that point. Although not all players agree with faqs and whatnot, and like I said I'm not a big fan of most exploits, but with the mounting evidence and people against me, I have to succumb to the crowd, even if I don't completely agree with it myself.

Thus, I'll bend to the collective will and agree. WH or DH would gain Vulcan's ability. I still however, I still think it's a sort of exploit/loophole.

But in all honesty, I'm happy to be wrong in this situation, because I've got 3000 pts of WH and around 1500 pts of SM, I'll be buying Vulkan and exploiting the hell out of this till it's fixed.

3000pts but you can only take 1HQ and 1 Elite and 1 Fast and 2 Troop no matter how many points you play.

"Witch Hunters units can be included as allies in any of the following Codex armies..."

it just calls them allies and says that they are include in the codexs armies ...they are include in the army, yay!

To be honest, if you think about it, its not too much of an exploit (at least IMO). A full SOB force lead by Vulkan would be stupid, but ally FOC rules are very restricting.

A. Sisters will not have access to as many faith points (maxing out at 7 tops); points which can only be used on the sisters themselves.
B. they are reduced to taking up to 1 HQ, 1 elite, 0-2 troops, 1 fast attack, and 0 heavy. That means that at MOST an army with Vulkan will have one squad of Dominions OR a unit of seraphim not both. All other units are troops or troops with holy hatred.
C. immolators are already twin-linked.
D. Seraphim flamers and melta weapons are already twin-linked.
E. A regular SM tactical squad can already take a flamer/meltagun, and a multi-melta. The majority of Sisters units simply allow 1 more flamer/meltagun, and no multi-melta.
F. all manner of combi-meltaflamer weapons given to SOB vets can also be access by sergeants (for cheaper may I add).

All and all, the only unit that could really add cheapness to a SM force is the dominions, but at the cost of loosing your seraphim (who are already all TL).
With ALL that in mind put your fears of a super powered god-force of an army to rest. Sisters don't offer much more power than a regular SM force can muster. The main benefit of sisters remains generally the same... equipping BoSL, cheaper units, and tar-pitting enemies.

I just wanted to combine me and my friends forces into one for fun.
If anyone has additional Ideas keep them coming, but thanks for all the input so far.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ghaz wrote:

Kreedos wrote:Also, you can't deny this wouldn't be allowed in a tournament of any respectability and magnitude.

The INAT FAQ v2.2 is compiled for the Adepticon tournament, one of the largest and most respected independent tournaments around and they specifically address this in their FAQ. It is allowed.

Out of this entire forum debate I want to give special props to Ghaz for providing this retort (nothing personal Kreedos) but... well played Ghaz.

Ghaz wrote:They both fill a SINGLE Force Organization chart, therefore they are a SINGLE army. It's that simple.

No. They are two separate armies fighting together, hence allies. Just because they fight together doesn't mean the two armies use the same rules. Each army has its own rules as defined by THEIR codex.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Ghaz wrote:They both fill a SINGLE Force Organization chart, therefore they are a SINGLE army. It's that simple.

No. They are two separate armies fighting together, hence allies. Just because they fight together doesn't mean the two armies use the same rules. Each army has its own rules as defined by THEIR codex.

Are you saying they don't use up slots in one force organization chart?

Also, just because they are fighting together doesn't mean they don't use some of the same rules.

And are you saying that special rules in one codex can't ever affect another army?

Interesting...

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Ghaz wrote:They both fill a SINGLE Force Organization chart, therefore they are a SINGLE army. It's that simple.

No. They are two separate armies fighting together, hence allies. Just because they fight together doesn't mean the two armies use the same rules. Each army has its own rules as defined by THEIR codex.

Wrong. As has already been quoted once in this thread, from page 21 of Codex Daemonhunters:

Daemonhunters units can be included as allies in any of the following Codex armies...

As it clearly states, they're "... in the army... " and not "... alongside the army... " Nor do the rules say that an entire army has to use the same rules or even come from the same codex. The only thing that defines an army is that they occupy a SINGLE Force Organization chart which they most definitely do.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Ghaz wrote:They both fill a SINGLE Force Organization chart, therefore they are a SINGLE army. It's that simple.

No. They are two separate armies fighting together, hence allies. codex.

I have posted this example once before, but if indeed sisters are "two separate armies" when allied with SM then the answer following the question below would be "no". (NOTE: i generally hate using examples that are slightly out of context, but I feel this may be sufficient).

Hear me out with this example... if I ally 750pts of sisters with 1500pts of SM (total 2250), can I equip a "sacred Banner of the Order Militant"?

TEXT rule for Sacred Banner of the Order Militant: "... may only be used in an army of 2000pts or more". (pg.22)
TEXT rule for Vulkan "all thunder hammers in your army will count as master-crafted..."

Allow me to explain:
If the term "army" only applies to the codex in which the rules where written (or units purchased), then I only have a 750pt Sisters army and logic deems that I cannot use the banner. If the sisters are in fact a part of the army then the banner can be applied (as well as Vulkan's rules).
I'm simply saying that if army rules like this are dedicated to the codex (and not the FOC), then point requirement rules should be codex dedicated too.

If you disagree with the claim/logic, please explain how the applied uses of "army" are different between rules. Hope this will help... or I may be about to get spammed.

Fire_hive wrote:If the term "army" only applies to the codex in which the rules where written (or units purchased), then I only have a 750pt Sisters army and logic deems that I cannot use the banner. If the sisters are in fact a part of the army then the banner can be applied (as well as Vulkan's rules).
I'm simply saying that if army rules like this are dedicated to the codex (and not the FOC), then point requirement rules should be codex dedicated too.

Some are... The two WH special characters, for instance, can only be fielded in a WH army of at least 1500 points. edit: not all WH codex, but WH as parent list at least.

The banner is limited to "an army" and a Heroine's Retinue could certainly be bought as allies to IG/SM. But since it only works on SoB I don't see anyone crying about it as opposed to Vulkan.

Fire_hive wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Ghaz wrote:They both fill a SINGLE Force Organization chart, therefore they are a SINGLE army. It's that simple.

No. They are two separate armies fighting together, hence allies. codex.

I have posted this example once before, but if indeed sisters are "two separate armies" when allied with SM then the answer following the question below would be "no". (NOTE: i generally hate using examples that are slightly out of context, but I feel this may be sufficient).

Hear me out with this example... if I ally 750pts of sisters with 1500pts of SM (total 2250), can I equip a "sacred Banner of the Order Militant"?

TEXT rule for Sacred Banner of the Order Militant: "... may only be used in an army of 2000pts or more". (pg.22)
TEXT rule for Vulkan "all thunder hammers in your army will count as master-crafted..."

Allow me to explain:
If the term "army" only applies to the codex in which the rules where written (or units purchased), then I only have a 750pt Sisters army and logic deems that I cannot use the banner. If the sisters are in fact a part of the army then the banner can be applied (as well as Vulkan's rules).
I'm simply saying that if army rules like this are dedicated to the codex (and not the FOC), then point requirement rules should be codex dedicated too.

If you disagree with the claim/logic, please explain how the applied uses of "army" are different between rules. Hope this will help... or I may be about to get spammed.

Army is a singular thing. I'm not sure how people are being so pedantic about it. So I figured I'd look in the Rulebook, go to Organizing a Battle, and see if they 'defined' an army. Of course they don't explicitly state it but your biggest clue on it is pg 87, as I'd figure that might clue me in on this subject, to quote
"Each detachment will be a separate army, using its own force organization chart."

So an Army is something using a Force Org chart. Simple logic enough.

(I'm glad to see the exchange argument gone as it was silly, it _couldn't_ be an exchange, as the crux of that argument is "does this apply to vehicles" if it does apply then no exchange could ever happen. vehicles can't give it up in order to gain twin linking.)

Gwar! wrote:Yeah, and this Token nonsense in which codex? I would love to read it.

Type/Token are terms from formal semantics. Sometimes useful converting from language to logic but english is too fuzzy to rely on them.

Wikipedia-copypasta:

The type-token distinction is a distinction that separates an abstract concept from the objects which are particular instances of the concept. For example, the particular bicycle in your garage is a token of the type of thing known as "The bicycle." Whereas, the bicycle in your garage is in a particular place at a particular time, that is not true of "the bicycle" as used in the sentence: "The bicycle has become more popular recently." In logic, the distinction is used to clarify the meaning of symbols of formal languages.

This is quite simple why are you still arguing this

Vulkan He'Stan makes all "X" weapons in army better but no one gets combat tactics.


"Witch Hunters(/Daemon Hunters) units can be included as allies in any of the following Codex armies..."

Any units chosen in this way are allies in the army. So are part of the army (so Vulkan hands round the better guns) and they are allies.

Are there any restrictions to allies? they've a limit on the number and type of units they can take; They do not count as any of the compulsory choices taken on the FOC.

So where does it say they're not counted as part of the "army"?

strange_eric wrote:
(I'm glad to see the exchange argument gone as it was silly, it _couldn't_ be an exchange, as the crux of that argument is "does this apply to vehicles" if it does apply then no exchange could ever happen. vehicles can't give it up in order to gain twin linking.)

Every page or so someone tries to reintroduce it. Then it has to be explained away with 4 or so posts. If there is a key issue its the schizophrenic meaning of "army". All other points have been taken care of.
(but ya a definitely agree with you)

Army (ar mee):

1. The units in one's Force Organization Chart.

2. A collection of units whose rules belong to the same Codex, or whose rules are a subset of Codex.


Some people here are arguing that definition 1 has primacy, and others are arguing that definition 2 comes first. That would seem to draw the lines here, and also explains why we have people who are no longer speaking to each others' points because they're saying different things with the same word.

Whenever my club has doubles tournaments we always state that the two halves of a doubles pairing are separate Armies, such that we side-step all these sorts of questions.



I think the more important question to ask other than all this other tat is:

Is this really so difficult a question for GW to just answer?

Either they intended the Vulkan rule to work with ANY models in the same FOC, or it was intended only to work for the Salamanders. Even a summary ruling would be better than silence at this point as I've been hearing this bloody question since the newest SM Codex was released...

I completely agree. Until a ruling is made, I will use Vulkan sighting the INAT FAQ v2.2, withour FOC RAW army definition.
I'm not planning on tornament use of this, but most people I play are fairly cool about this stuff if you convince them that it is not cheese.

The DH codex actually makes a explicit distinction between the "parent" list (army to ally with) and the Daemonhunters list (page 21 of the Codex: Daemonhunters).

Also, the DH codex itself states the "Codex armies" listing Space Marines as one of those armies. Nothing in the DH codex permits the allied units to use the parent codex rule just that units from the DH codex can join units from the parent list of acceptable allied armies.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:The DH codex actually makes a explicit distinction between the "parent" list (army to ally with) and the Daemonhunters list (page 21 of the Codex: Daemonhunters).

Right. The codices are different.

Also, the DH codex itself states the "Codex armies" listing Space Marines as one of those armies.

And an army is a Force Org Chart.

Nothing in the DH codex permits the allied units to use the parent codex rule just that units from the DH codex can join units from the parent list of acceptable allied armies.

And you just completely made that up.

TheGreatAvatar:

Not to mention that Codex: Space Marines defines a Space Marine army as one that's chosen from the Space Marine list.

OK everyone!!!

I have emailed GW about this clarification to Vulkans rule to hopefully put this whole thing to rest for everyone. With great humility I have to say we Need GW to give us an answer, because we aren't reaching a consensus any time soon.
If/when I receive a response pertaining to this thread, I promise (as the original poster) to paste their response verbatim (word for word) back onto this board. The response should get back within 3 business days of its request (which I made 30 min ago).

NOTE: Because I will not be receiving any official pfd. or other file proving this is GW's legitimate documentation, you will have to take this upcoming post with a grain of salt as to weather you choose to believe it. I pride myself on my professionalism on this and all forums, and worst case scenario... email them yourself. Maybe they will figure to post something finally on their website.

Thank you for all your posts, so far. I always appreciate you input.

What email address did you use?

LOL good luck bro, I've e-mailed them about 3 seperate rules issues about 4 months, 2 months and 1 month ago respectively, and I haven't got anything back.