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Nurglitch wrote:Tri:

Yes and no. Yes, because the allied units are part of that combined Space Marine/Allied army, and no, because the allied units are not part of the Space Marine army. The rules in Codex: Space Marine refer to the latter and not the former. This distinction is what is commonly referred to as the type/token distinction, whereby the type of army that the rules refer to, the Space Marine army, is distinct from the specific or token army that you can make using Codex: Witch/Daemon Hunters.


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More about the type-token distinction.

Interesting but it doesn't change that its all thunder hammers, flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns and multimeltas in the army gain the rule. Doesn't matter they've come from another codex. You only write one army list they are part of the army in my book.

Well i guess we can agree to disagree if you don't like it you can ether roll off or not play with me.

My point is that it does the conclusion that the rule applies to all the units in the army. It changes the conclusion from true, where it applies to all units in any token army, to false, where it applies to all units in the army type, the Space Marine army.

We can agree to disagree, but we already did that when we decided to post mutually exclusive opinions. Since this is a discussion forum, and not a game of 40k, I suggest we discuss the matter in order to reach the truth of the matter.

That's just it they are units in the army. Your limit is all units in Codex Space marine which is never mention.

Tri:

See Codex: Space Marines. Concerning which army the term 'army' refers to, see p.51 for special rules.

"The models in the Space Marines army use a number of special rules that are common to more than one unit, as specified in the individual entries that follow."

See p.127 for lists.

"The following pages contain an army list that enables you to field a Space Marines army and fight battles using the scenarios included in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. It also provides you with the basic information you'll need in order to field a Space Marines army in scenarios you've devised yourself, or that form part of a campaign."

"The army list allows you to pick an army based on the troops that could be fielded by a Space Marines Battle Company, with attached support drawn from other companies in the Chapter."

"Before you choose an army, you will need to agree with your opponent upon a scenario and the total number of points each of you will spend. Then you can proceed to pick your army."

So no, it's not my "limit", it's a distinction made in the Codex itself, between the Space Marine army list, and the Space Marine army you can choose using that list.

Well case of the general rule being over ridden by the specific. Daemon hunters (& Witch Hunters)maybe included as allies within Space Marine (& Imperial Guard) armies. Since they are now part of the army, Vulkan hands round the better salamander equipment.

Tri:

No, this is not a case of a general rule being over-ridden by a specific rule, because the Allies rule is not a specific rule over-riding the general rule that the rules of Codex: Space Marine refer solely to units chosen from the Space Marine army list.

This is a case of Allied units being included in a token army, Space Marine units of which may be affected by special rules that apply to units chosen from the Space Marine army list.

Again the type/token distinction applies: the Allies rule allows some Daemon Hunter and Witch Hunter units to be included in armies otherwise chosen from the Space Marine and Imperial Guard army lists, not for those units to become parts of those army lists.

Nurglich, trype-token is all good and well, but 40k is a game where the consensus is often more important in making decisions...

So really, wouldn't it be a better idea to just do a bit of research, and see if someone has already tried this a a GT or something? and then to see if the tournament directors allowed it or not?

I guess it makes sense that the SM chaarcter would only affect SM units, otherwise we could apply any rule in any codex to any allies, unless they thought about specifically saying we can't.
If "army" isn't codex-specific, we could even have a canoness join a SM squad... o_O
Pretty sure we can't do that, right?

Nope; Allied ICs can join whatever units they want. Only thing is, with the Canoness (or indeed any Faithful IC), she can't make Tests of Faith while attached to a non-Sisters unit.


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We still need a definition of "army" as it applies to the models on the tabletop. This whole back-referencing nebulous terms from the Codex just don't cut it.

In other cases like this, where rules can apply to some models on the tabletop but not others, clear, unequivocal definitions are given. F'rinstance, the Daemonhunters' Codex has a clear definition of which units it means when it refers to "Daemons". That specificity doesn't exist with the word "army"; you can cut-paste all the instances of the word "army" you want from the Space Marine Codex, fact is the BRB uses the term "army" to represent all the models fielded by a single player countless times throughout the volume. Inb4 "Codex trumps Rulebook"; for this to be a valid argument you still need to provide text from an official source that unequivocally defines what the books mean when they say "army", and then you need to find more rulebook text that allows for Allied units to be excluded from this.


Look at it this way; I bring my Space Wolves to a Doubles tournament. No, even better; I bring my Meltaspam Mechvet list. My partner plays Salamanders. Do my Flamers and Meltaguns benefit from Vulkan's rule? If you think not, can you point me to something RaW-wise that disallows it?

Frank Fugger wrote:
Look at it this way; I bring my Space Wolves to a Doubles tournament. No, even better; I bring my Meltaspam Mechvet list. My partner plays Salamanders. Do my Flamers and Meltaguns benefit from Vulkan's rule? If you think not, can you point me to something RaW-wise that disallows it?

... please don't muddie this in your example your using two army yours and your friends (unless we're playing some wierd rules where half the FOC is given to each player)

Tri:

Frank Fugger isn't muddling anything.

The example he's giving is a logical extension of how token army lists interact with the type of army list they're drawn from. His mistake is then supposing that the term "army" refers only to the token army list that may be fielded, and that if this is the case, then all the units in a token army list composed of two Force Organization Charts can benefit from rules referencing the "army".

But the fact is that the term "army" is used semi-amphibolously to refer to both the army lists, and the armies that can be drawn from those lists. The quotes from Codex: Space Marine are instances of this use. I call the use of the term 'semi-amphibolous' because the context of the term is distinct and hence no confusion about its specific referents should be happening despite the same term being used in two different senses in the same rules document.

In other words, the rulebook gives clear and unambiguous definitions of the two senses of "army" in the section "Building an Army" (pp.viii-ix). This section sets the tone for the use of the term by 40k documents by referring to these two senses of the term "army".

In the type-sense, the rulebook says "However, most players soon decide to collect one particular army, such as Space Marines or Orks," and "Once you have chosen which army to collect...".

In the token-sense the rulebook says: "For example, every army must have a leader such as a Space Marine Captain or an Ork Warboss."

Codex: Space Marines simply fixes the senses of "army" to mean the specific type of army, the Space Marine army, and the specific token army, an army including Vulkan.

So, to recap: The rulebook establishes the dual use of the term, the Codex fixes the type-sense of the term to the Space Marine type of army, and Vulkan's rule references the type of army whose units may benefit from losing all instances of Combat Tactics, and gaining the Twin-Linked rule for all instances of the listed weapons. Allied Inquisitorial contingents are not part of the Space Marine army type, hence they do not benefit from Vulkan's rule.

Yeah, and this Token nonsense in which codex? I would love to read it.

If Nurglitch can't find evidence that supports his point, he creates it using strange "logical" inferences. I don't intend this as a flame of him personally, but his debate style is repetitive and incredibly circumlocuitous. Find any other thread with extensive rules argument and you'll see what I mean.

So to recap:

"Army" is not well defined as a game term, but the Inquisitor codices state that certain allies can be included in an "army" from a different parent list. In my opinion, the most literal reading lends itself toward 'Army' being a more inclusive term referring to the list as a whole.

You can't claim that a scenario that ignores or is not covered by the rules (as in a dual team tournament) can prove or disprove a rules argument. There are no rules for such a scenario, so then how can they possibly interact?

I really wish that this rule was usable because it would be such a fun army to play. I would have combined the sisters with Vulkan and formed a new chapter to break up the rough fluff surrounding the list.

With that said, I think our answer lies in pg 25 of the witch hunters codex stating,
"Witch Hunters units can be included as allies in any of the following codex armies".

The rule refers to "codex armies" in reference to the space marine, or IG codex, and, refers to the inclusion of Witch hunters in an army as "Allies". This means that though they ARE in fact included as part of the army (and the rule would normally apply), their "ally" status DOES separate them from them from the "codex ARMY". If the rule stated "they would be included in the codex army" then this would guarantee Vulkan's rule, but because they are included "as allies" in the codex army they would not gain any benefit bestowed by another codex.

Long story short, Witch hunters ARE a part of the army, but their ally name shields them from association with the codex rules. I am sorry if this is a poor, repetitive explanation.
All and all it is like throwing all the models into a shoebox called "Army", but the sisters are covered in a cellophane coating called "ally wrap" to ensure special rules don't rub off on them that aren't supposed to.

This is still not a guarantee, but this wording is as close to definitive proof as we are gonna get with this rule. I can see someone arguing the other way with this same statement, thus proving that a stone solid decision will never happen without GW holding our hands and telling us, but if you can use the statement above to prove you can confer Vulkan's rule in casual play, more power to ya.

If anyone can find an official GW ruling I would love to hear it, but until then, beef up your debate skills and just play.

If they're included in the army, then they're included in the army. That they have 'ally' status does not make them no longer a part of the army. Vulkan's rule says nothing about 'codex army', only 'army'. 'Codex army' is a qualifier that you made up.

I don't intend this to be rude, but often in these debates people cite definitive proof based on a critical rule interpretation that they made up. Case in point.

sourclams wrote:
I don't intend this to be rude, but often in these debates people cite definitive proof based on a critical rule interpretation that they made up. Case in point.

I agree with you. In the last post I even mentioned "I can see someone arguing the other way with this same statement". I was trying to address how someone could us the term "Ally" against Vulkan's rule, though the final ruling was still up for debate. It was food for thought, and to be honest, I would like to use the rule. I just don't want to instill a bias because of it.

Still, the point of my statement (sorry for being unclear), was the use of "Ally" and how it could shield them from "army" rule instances, while still being part of the force. There in, but their not. I feel like I'm going in circles.
It makes sense to me, but then again, I can't decide what the answer is myself.

P:S Your right; this is an interpretation, but then again, most laws in our justice systems are. Not saying I'm right, but GW needs to lock this down.

Sorry to bring this back up, but I wanted to weigh in. I'm getting back into the game after a few years away and was planning to run a Salamanders/Sisters army to make an army on the cheap since I've already got a decently sized Sisters army. I think the rules as written very clearly lend Vulkan's abilities to his allies, and pretty much any counter argument relies on some pretty gross parsing. That said, I can see that people on the other end might view that as a bit cheesy. In my opinion, it's not too hard to figure out why they wrote the rule as they did. If you look at the other characters' Chapter Tactics rules they all affect foot soldiers, conferring things like fleet or stubborn. In that case it makes sense to say "exchange" Combat Tactics for Chapter Tactics. For Vulkan they probably wanted his rule to apply to vehicles (which don't have Combat Tactics) as well, because all the Salamanders' weapons are skillfully crafted, not just their foot solders' weapons. For some reason they didn't feel the need to clarify it beyond that and just left it as "all <weapons> in the army". Now, unless your allies are actually being equipped by the Salamanders themselves it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to get the twin-linked bonus, so in that sense I'd say that the rule is broken and applying it "as written" clearly violates the intent. Just my 2 cents.

Amerikon wrote:I think the rules as written very clearly lend Vulkan's abilities to his allies, and pretty much any counter argument relies on some pretty gross parsing.

So put your money where your mouth is and provide a detailed critique of how these counter arguments rely on "pretty gross parsing". Provide some back-up to your claim.

Nurglitch wrote:

Amerikon wrote:I think the rules as written very clearly lend Vulkan's abilities to his allies, and pretty much any counter argument relies on some pretty gross parsing.

So put your money where your mouth is and provide a detailed critique of how these counter arguments rely on "pretty gross parsing". Provide some back-up to your claim.

So the basic argument for is very straightforward. The rule in the codex literally states "all thunder hammers in your army will count as master crafted, and all flamer, melta, etc count as twin-linked". Ask anyone what an "army" is and undoubtedly they'll tell you in some form or another that it is all the units that they're currently playing with. The counter arguments rely on pretty intense interpretations of what the word army means and whether or not the word "army" used in a codex overrides some other definition of "army" written in another codex. In particular, you wrote:

See Codex: Space Marines. Concerning which army the term 'army' refers to, see p.51 for special rules.

"The models in the Space Marines army use a number of special rules that are common to more than one unit, as specified in the individual entries that follow."

See p.127 for lists.

"The following pages contain an army list that enables you to field a Space Marines army and fight battles using the scenarios included in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. It also provides you with the basic information you'll need in order to field a Space Marines army in scenarios you've devised yourself, or that form part of a campaign."

"The army list allows you to pick an army based on the troops that could be fielded by a Space Marines Battle Company, with attached support drawn from other companies in the Chapter."

"Before you choose an army, you will need to agree with your opponent upon a scenario and the total number of points each of you will spend. Then you can proceed to pick your army."

So no, it's not my "limit", it's a distinction made in the Codex itself, between the Space Marine army list, and the Space Marine army you can choose using that list.

You'd have to go through some pretty serious linguistic gymnastics to think that the use of the word army has any non-generic meaning. Why would the Space Marines codex contain anything other than rules to make a Space Marines army? If the sentence read "The following pages contain an army list that enables you to field a Space Marines army... and as part of your Space Marines army you can include allied units from Codex Daemonhunters and Codex Witch Hunters" would that make Vulkan's rule apply to allies? And certainly, Legion of the Damned are not troops that could be fielded by a Space Marines Battle Company or support drawn from other companies in the Chapter. Does that make them not part of a Space Marines army?

With that said, I think our answer lies in pg 25 of the witch hunters codex stating,
"Witch Hunters units can be included as allies in any of the following codex armies".

The rule refers to "codex armies" in reference to the space marine, or IG codex, and, refers to the inclusion of Witch hunters in an army as "Allies". This means that though they ARE in fact included as part of the army (and the rule would normally apply), their "ally" status DOES separate them from them from the "codex ARMY". If the rule stated "they would be included in the codex army" then this would guarantee Vulkan's rule, but because they are included "as allies" in the codex army they would not gain any benefit bestowed by another codex.

Nothing in this statement has any basis in the reality of the rules. If anything, by being included as an ally in an army you are now necessarily in that army. There's nothing in the main rulebook that applies any significance to allies and I'd be surprised if the term "codex army" is written anywhere outside of the two Inquisition codices. Let's take another example. If I take an IG army with Grey Knight allies and I choose Lord Creed as my HQ. Would his Tactical Genius rule (During deployment, choose a single infantry or vehicle unit in your army. That unit has the Scouts special rule for the duration of the battle.) not be applicable to they Grey Knights? Unlikely.

Basically, you can choose to determine the rule's meaning by simply reading the text of the rule ("all <weapons> in the army") or you can do all of this parsing and try to apply a very specific interpretation to general terms. All other things being equal, the simplest explanation tends to be the right one.

Now you've done it. Nurglitch is well known for his ability to spawn an incredibly circumlocutory "other meaning" out of what should be a straightforward rule.

Yes, by a strict RAW reading, Vulkan Sisters works.

Because that is somehow "too good" then we get the literary gymnastics that people go through to "prove" that it doesn't work.

WTB FAQ pst willing to pay 3x vendor and AH price!!1!

Fire_hive wrote:This is something I would never attempt in tournament play, but I wanted to see your thoughts off allying Sisters of Battle w/ marines lead by Vulkan He'Stan.

Would you as a player cry foul if I activate the "twin-linked melta/flamer" chapter tactic supplied by Vulkan on my sisters (ie: a rhino full of dominios w/ 4 flamers)?

The rules state the combat tactic applies to the "army", but I also know this argument was brought up involving guard players who gave their sister squads commands (and is generally not allowed). Also, this rule depends on weather "Army" consists of what is under your force organization chart, OR the race that you are playing (which I may even be leaning towards). There is No FAQ for any of this. What do you all think about toying with this rule?

Considering it says in the Witch Hunters book, that any model with the Adepta Sororitas Special rule cannot be included in a space marine army, makes it kind of tricky because you can't take; Seraphim, Dominions, Battle Sisters, Adepta Sororitas Heronies, Celestians, Retributers, or any other model that is allowed to use acts of faith. So that squad of Dominions can't exist.

So, actually this entire arugement is pointless because of that fact that you can't take Vulkan with most of the units that can use a melta gun or flamer (aka having the Adepta Sororitas special rule. Imolators, Inqusitorital Storm troopers, Penitent Engines, Priests, and Inqusitor Lords or Elite Inquisitors would be the only units that benefit by having Vulkan, but it would be so pointless do the fact the only way most of these units would benefit is by giving them a combi flamer, Imolators are already twin linked.

Kreedos wrote:
Considering it says in the Witch Hunters book, that any model with the Adepta Sororitas Special rule cannot be included in a space marine army, makes it kind of tricky because you can't take; Seraphim, Dominions, Battle Sisters, Adepta Sororitas Heronies, Celestians, Retributers, or any other model that is allowed to use acts of faith. So that squad of Dominions can't exist.

Where on earth does it say that? The rule is you cannot include SM in a WH army that includes any Adepta Sororitas units (aka Sisters of battle). No where are you restricted going the other way. (this includes DH Grey Knights who also can't field SM in their army but can be fielded with a SM army)

proof can be found on page 62 (of WH codex) that this is acceptable.

Where on earth does it say that? The rule is you cannot includ SM in a WH army that includes any Adepta Sororitas units (aka Sisters of battle)

Witch Hunters Codex, page 26, grey box on the side next to the Inquisitor Lord section, first paragraph.

"These units may not be chosen as any of the compulsory choices in an army and Allied Space Marine units may not be used if any Adepta Sororitas units are present in the army"


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Where on earth does it say that? The rule is you cannot include SM in a WH army that includes any Adepta Sororitas units (aka Sisters of battle). No where are you restricted going the other way. (this includes DH Grey Knights who also can't field SM in their army but can be fielded with a SM army)

proof can be found on page 62 (of WH codex) that this is acceptable.

Grey Knights have few melta guns outside of Dreadnaughts or combi flamer/melta They have Psi Cannons and Incinerators, so allying him with Grey Knights would be pointless as well.

Kreedos wrote:

Where on earth does it say that? The rule is you cannot includ SM in a WH army that includes any Adepta Sororitas units (aka Sisters of battle)

Witch Hunters Codex, page 26, grey box on the side next to the Inquisitor Lord section, first paragraph.

"These units may not be chosen as any of the compulsory choices in an army and Allied Space Marine units may not be used if any Adepta Sororitas units are present in the army"

As in, if you use any Adepta Sororitas units in a Witch Hunters army then you can't use any of the Allied Space Marine choices, and vice versa. GKs in a DH army have the same restriction. However, that only counts if the army is built from the WH/ DH Codex; taking a Smurf army with Sisters and/ or Grey Knights as Allies is perfectly legal.

Grey Knights have few melta guns outside of Dreadnaughts or combi flamer/melta They have Psi Cannons and Incinerators, so allying him with Grey Knights would be pointless as well.

Grey Knight Terminators are WS5 and can take Thunder Hammers for free. On the charge a unit of 3 get 9 attacks (it's normally 6), assuming you don't upgrade the Brother-Captain's NFW. At WS5 they'll hit anything with a WS attribute on a 4+ at worst. Master-crafting allows you to reroll any that miss. Seems like a valid reason to take Allied GKTs in a Salamanders' list to me.

Grey Knight Terminators are WS5 and can take Thunder Hammers for free. On the charge a unit of 3 get 9 attacks (it's normally 6), assuming you don't upgrade the Brother-Captain's NFW. At WS5 they'll hit anything with a WS attribute on a 4+ at worst. Master-crafting allows you to reroll any that miss. Seems like a valid reason to take Allied GKTs in a Salamanders' list to me.

"Allied Space Marines may not be used if Grey Knights are present in the Daemonhunters force." page 21 of the Grey Knights Codex under the heading Allied Space Marines, bottom paragraph.

Grey Knight Terminators have the Grey Knight Special rule, so the above isn't possible.

Because, when you think about it, even using SM as a parent army, you refer back to the Daemon Hunters codex to choose your units and wargear, so thus "Allied Space Marines may not be used if Grey Knights are present" rule kicks in. It's not a special rule that's lost due to taking the parent army as space marines, it's a rule of the Codex when selecting any of the units that would have the Grey Knights special rule.

I don't see how this could be ignored, or where it gives you rules to take Allied Daemon Hunters or Witch Hunters without using the force organization charts and rules in each respective codex. This would mean you could ally IG and Space Marines too, if this was possible.

Only if the army is built from the DH Codex, in which case you couldn't take Vulkan.

If your army is built from the Space Marine Codex taking units, any units at all, including Sisters and Grey Knights, as Allies is fine.

The box-outs you're quoting comprise the rules for using Inducted Imperial GUard and Allied Space Marine units in a WH/ DH army. The rules for using WH/ DH as Allies in other armies are on p.25 of the WH Codex and p.21 of the DH Codex, under the heading "Using Witch/ Daemonhunters As Allies".

If your army is built from the Space Marine Codex taking units, any units at all, including Sisters and Grey Knights, as Allies is fine.

Where does it say that you can ignore the rule that Space Marines can't be present with any unit that has the GK or WH special rules?

Or, in what event do you lead up to this conclusion? As you just said you refer to the Force Organization share in either the WH or DH codex for what units you are allowed, so seeing as you refer to the codex for your units, you must also abide by that Codex's rule set.

Even if you would lose the WH special rule when taking Space Marines, it specifically says that you can't ally them in the first place. So, it's more of an assumption, that because they lose their special rule when being taken as allies, that you can indeed.

I believe that because of the way it's stated, you can't put them together, to make the WH, or GK rules disappear, so in fact you can't ally them at all.

"Allied Space Marines may not be used if Grey Knights are present in the Daemonhunters force"

Because of the ending "Deamonhunters force" it kind of leaves a loophole that one could say it's not the Daemonhunters force, but the Space Marines instead, and thus it's allowed to take them at that point. However, you are taking two forces, and thus you must abide by that rule, for the same reason you wouldn't gain the Space Marine special rules, or the Daemon Hunters would give the space marines theirs, also it states that one army can't use another armies wargear. This could be taken to signify that they remain two forces and fighting using their seperate codexes. They are two seperate forces, but taken into one army. This however could only be applied to the Daemonhunters army because the WH codex quotes and bases their ruleset on allies differently, because the Sisters would have to lose their special rule, and from what I said above, I don't think it's possible because you have to have a rule first, in order to lose it. Here's the Witch Hunter ally quote, their allowance to be allies is based on their special rule, instead of their title.

"Allied Space Marine units may not be used if any Adepta Sororitas units are present in the army."

This definition is much clearer, and states that Space Marine units and Adepta Sororitas can not be used together in any army that would include the two. This extends to using the Space Marine codex as the parent army as well.


So, after my big wall o text and long explanation, my opinion says you can never take Space Marines and Sisters, or GKs in the same army.

USING INDUCTED IMPERIAL GUARD OR ALLIED SPACE MARINE CONTIGENTS
explain use of allies
Allied Space Marines(sub heading of the above)
Allied Space marines may not be used if any (Grey Knights / Sisters of Battle) units are present in the army


So basically all your rules that stop SM army having Sisters of battle (/Grey Knights) in them stem from this while ignoring that this is all about using SM as the allies.

Tri wrote:USING INDUCTED IMPERIAL GUARD OR ALLIED SPACE MARINE CONTIGENTS
explain use of allies
Allied Space Marines(sub heading of the above)
Allied Space marines may not be used if any (Grey Knights / Sisters of Battle) units are present in the army


So basically all your rules that stop SM army having Sisters of battle (/Grey Knights) in them stem from this while ignoring that this is all about using SM as the allies.

I don't understand what you are saying, are you saying you can, or can't?