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This is something I would never attempt in tournament play, but I wanted to see your thoughts off allying Sisters of Battle w/ marines lead by Vulkan He'Stan.

Would you as a player cry foul if I activate the "twin-linked melta/flamer" chapter tactic supplied by Vulkan on my sisters (ie: a rhino full of dominios w/ 4 flamers)?

The rules state the combat tactic applies to the "army", but I also know this argument was brought up involving guard players who gave their sister squads commands (and is generally not allowed). Also, this rule depends on weather "Army" consists of what is under your force organization chart, OR the race that you are playing (which I may even be leaning towards). There is No FAQ for any of this. What do you all think about toying with this rule?

Space marine units exchange the combat tactics rule for Chapter tactics.

So if your sisters for some reason had combat tactics, it would work.

Canonness Rory wrote:Space marine units exchange the combat tactics rule for Chapter tactics.

So if your sisters for some reason had combat tactics, it would work.

No exchange takes place with vulkan. You lose combat tactics, not exchange. It's not a requirement.


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Fire_hive wrote:This is something I would never attempt in tournament play, but I wanted to see your thoughts off allying Sisters of Battle w/ marines lead by Vulkan He'Stan.

Would you as a player cry foul if I activate the "twin-linked melta/flamer" chapter tactic supplied by Vulkan on my sisters (ie: a rhino full of dominios w/ 4 flamers)?

The rules state the combat tactic applies to the "army", but I also know this argument was brought up involving guard players who gave their sister squads commands (and is generally not allowed). Also, this rule depends on weather "Army" consists of what is under your force organization chart, OR the race that you are playing (which I may even be leaning towards). There is No FAQ for any of this. What do you all think about toying with this rule?

All meltas and flamers (of various variants) become twin-linked.

As far as 'race' or 'army' would be the only hitch.

No, as a player, I would not cry foul. I play by the rules to the best of my ability.

Well, the problem is the next line starts off as "Instead." So, it is still an exchange.

EDIT: Also, wrong section of the forum.

sorry about that. Ill change the thread location

DarkHound wrote:Well, the problem is the next line starts off as "Instead." So, it is still an exchange.

Chapter Tactics: If you include He'stan then all units in your
army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all
thunder hammers in your army will count as master-crafted,
and all flamers, heavy flamer, meltaguns and multimeltas
count as twin-linked. If more than one character in your
army has the Chapter Tactics special rule, you must choose
which version will apply.

I don't think in this instance that this is an exchange. You lose chapter tactics if you have it and all your stuff is twin-linked.

Unless, of course, you play that dreads and other units that don't have chapter tactics in a space marine army don't count as twin-linked.

I don't know of anyone personally that does that, but if you do then that is correct.

I agree with that statement.
The problem was that a member at GM argued that your "ARMY" only included those units native to the codex, allies don't count as a part of the "army".

Inquisitorial Allies are a legacy of 4th edition, they'll be gone soon enough.

EDIT: Legacy of 3rd Edition. Not 4th.

If it said something like "... units exchange the Combat Tactics rule, and in return [etc etc]..." then you'd have an argument for denying Allies the ability to use Vulkan's awesomeness. As it stands the RaW doesn't make twin-linking/ master-crafting a quid pro quo thing (i.e the units don't swap Combat Tactics for it, those that have Combat Tactics lose it and all the specified items in the army benefit) and as such we are free to enjoy twin-linked AP1 templates.

You mean a better argument than "It doesn't say I can't!"?

It's not a case of IDSIC, more a case of there not being a requirement for a unit to swap it's Combat Tactics rule quid-pro-quo for the twin-linking/ master-crafting and therefore an implicit suggestion that the only requirement to benefit is possession of the listed items.

We can sit here and debate the intent of the rule or rail against the careless employment of language by GW's game devs all day long, doesn't change the fact that according to RaW my Dominion's 4 flamers are all twin-linked if I ally them with a Vulkan army.

Except the GW developers haven't used the language carelessly, and hence have made no implicit suggestion that the only requirement to benefit is the possession of the listed items. The requirements to benefit are clearly membership in the same army, and possession of the same items. The Inquisitorial allies are not part of the same army, and therefore fail to meet one of the requirements for benefiting from the rule.

So yes, it does change the "fact" that "according to RaW" your Dominion's Flamers are all Twin-Linked, because that is neither a fact nor what the rules actually say. It means that if you're doing this without the informed consent of your opponent, you're cheating, as well as being unsportsmanlike by stooping to twist and obfuscate the rules for your own advantage.

Nurglitch wrote:Except the GW developers haven't used the language carelessly, and hence have made no implicit suggestion that the only requirement to benefit is the possession of the listed items.

There's no clause that says a unit has to give up Combat Tactics to gain the twin-linking/ master-crafting; in effect all that happens is your units lose Combat Tactics and the listed items gain a bonus because of it.

If they intended only Space Marine units to benefit then they were, at best, clumsy, and at worst negligent when they were writing up Vulkan's rule.

The requirements to benefit are clearly membership in the same army,

Are the Allies on my army list's FoC? Check!

and possession of the same items.

Do they have items of wargear named by Vulkan's rule? Check!

The Inquisitorial allies are not part of the same army, and therefore fail to meet one of the requirements for benefiting from the rule.

Explain how. They're on my FoC, they're part of the same detachment, they're friendly models... you're going to have to direct me to a passage in the BRB or one or other of the Codexes to convince me they're not part of the same army as Vulkan.

So yes, it does change the "fact" that "according to RaW" your Dominion's Flamers are all Twin-Linked, because that is neither a fact nor what the rules actually say.

You need to evince your assertions with RaW, because so far all you're doing is making specious statements with no backing. As things stand my Sisters and Grey Knights, and any other Allied units which have the required items of wargear, benefit from Vulkan's rule by dint of having those items. They don't lose Combat Tactics, but they don't have to.

It means that if you're doing this without the informed consent of your opponent, you're cheating, as well as being unsportsmanlike by stooping to twist and obfuscate the rules for your own advantage.

If you're going to make judgements like this you really need to provide evidence that your interpretation is the correct one according to the rules. Gwar! does it all the time; the difference being that perusal of the text usually bears out his responses. Be a bit more thorough.

This should be in YMDC, but it hinges on "Instead." All units lose Combat Tactics, and in its stead they get TL to all that stuff. I don't have Combat Tactics to lose, so I can't put anything in its place. Units without Combat Tactics still don't get the TL stuff. RAI and RAW.

I'll buy that; the swap is implied by "instead", good enough for me.

Just think, a bit less slop on the part of the writers would have saved us all a lot of time.

DarkHound wrote:This should be in YMDC, but it hinges on "Instead." All units lose Combat Tactics, and in its stead they get TL to all that stuff. I don't have Combat Tactics to lose, so I can't put anything in its place. Units without Combat Tactics still don't get the TL stuff. RAI and RAW.

? Units with combat tactics lose it. Instead every one in the army gets mastcrafted thunder-hammers and Twin Linked meltaguns, multimeltas, flamers and heavy flamers. You may not like it but allied units are part of the army so they also gain the effect.

As mention this will disappear in the coming months when the new WH and DH codex arrive (or may be just a single Codex Inquisitor)

Tri wrote:

DarkHound wrote:This should be in YMDC, but it hinges on "Instead." All units lose Combat Tactics, and in its stead they get TL to all that stuff. I don't have Combat Tactics to lose, so I can't put anything in its place. Units without Combat Tactics still don't get the TL stuff. RAI and RAW.

? Units with combat tactics lose it. Instead every one in the army gets mastcrafted thunder-hammers and Twin Linked meltaguns, multimeltas, flamers and heavy flamers. You may not like it but allied units are part of the army so they also gain the effect.

They haven't lost Combat Tactics though. All wargear listed becomes twin-linked/ master-crafted instead of the models armed with it having Combat Tactics.

It doesn't require a lot of mental backflips to get to it, and as stated previously it produces sensible RaW and RaI. You may not like it, but occasionally common sense must be allowed to prevail where 40K rules are concerned.

As mention this will disappear in the coming months when the new WH and DH codex arrive (or may be just a single Codex Inquisitor)

If by "coming months" you mean "at some point before 2045".

They don't need to lose it. Every one that does have it lose it. Then every one, in the army, gets mastcrafted thunder-hammers and Twin Linked meltaguns, multimeltas, flamers and heavy flamers


.... 2 weeks before the 6TH ED is released making the rules obsolete ....No real idea when they've been making noise it will be soon (possibly 2nd one after SW) ... so next year knowing them ^__^

Tri wrote:

As mention this will disappear in the coming months when the new WH and DH codex arrive (or may be just a single Codex Inquisitor)

I am very exited for the new edition, hopefully the penitent engines will get their well deserved upgrade. such a sweet model.

Back to the this chintzy rule.

DarkHound wrote:
This should be in YMDC, but it hinges on "Instead." All units lose Combat Tactics, and in its stead they get TL to all that stuff. I don't have Combat Tactics to lose, so I can't put anything in its place. Units without Combat Tactics still don't get the TL stuff. RAI and RAW.

If this is true then would that also mean that dreds, and other vehicles will not gain the benefit because they are not armed with combat tactics? If we are asked to incorporate the argument of implied meaning, then this rule was meant to apply to ALL units including vehicles not armed with the tactics. Marine units still loose the tactics, but ALL units (vehicles) gain the tactic. The question is and has been, do allied forces as a part of the force organization count as a part of the army?


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Tri wrote:
.... 2 weeks before the 6TH ED is released making the rules obsolete ....No real idea when they've been making noise it will be soon (possibly 2nd one after SW) ... so next year knowing them ^__^

what do you mean 2 weeks before 6th edition? 6th edition of what?

Frank Fugger wrote:They haven't lost Combat Tactics though. All wargear listed becomes twin-linked/ master-crafted instead of the models armed with it having Combat Tactics.

It doesn't require a lot of mental backflips to get to it, and as stated previously it produces sensible RaW and RaI. You may not like it, but occasionally common sense must be allowed to prevail where 40K rules are concerned.

So you have always played that dreads, speeders and other vehicles with melta and flamer weapons do not get twin linked?

And you state that's rai? I think it's the farthest thing from it.

And if it truly was an 'exchange', why is vulkan the only one that is worded explicity different than all the other special characters?

It doesn't make sense at all, especially from a rai standpoint...

Well the biggest difference I've noticed between Vulkan's entry and the other characters that have a rule that replaces chapter tactics is that all of the other abilities are a universal special rule from the BGB (Stubborn, Fleet, Outflank) while Vulkan's ability is something that is unique.
Unfortunately this looks into RAI too much and can only be objectified as conjecture. All in all though its something that should be noted.

imweasel wrote:
So you have always played that dreads, speeders and other vehicles with melta and flamer weapons do not get twin linked?

Nope. Way we play it everything in the army gets twin-linking/ master-crafting, Allies and all. What I'm doing is sorting through the rules to see if there's anything that says definitively yes or no either way.

And you state that's rai? I think it's the farthest thing from it.

This is a little murkier. Read any Salamanders fluff and you'll see why them having MCed Thunder Hammers and twin-linked Flamer/ Melta weapons is fluffy; hence the Salamanders IC having rules to that effect. Basically they favour these weapons. They also make a lot of their own gear and make it to artificer standard; which, unless they're suddenly in the business of crafting Meltaguns and Flamers for their Sisters allies or tweaking the Grey Knight Terminator's Thunder Hammers for them on the eve of a battle, does cast doubt over how RaI the Allies thing truly is.

And if it truly was an 'exchange', why is vulkan the only one that is worded explicity different than all the other special characters?

This I can't answer. Maybe the Codex writer fails at English? Maybe they needed to try and make it so's that Dreads and Speeders etc. would gain the benefit without losing a rule they don't have and didn't bother to factor in the effect it'd have on Allied units? Maybe they intended for every unit in the army (i.e every unit in the same detachment, including Allies) to have TL/ MC?

Fire_hive wrote:I am very exited for the new edition, hopefully the penitent engines will get their well deserved upgrade. such a sweet model.

Doing away with the requirement for a Priest is all that's needed; Penny Engines rawk

If this is true then would that also mean that dreds, and other vehicles will not gain the benefit because they are not armed with combat tactics? If we are asked to incorporate the argument of implied meaning, then this rule was meant to apply to ALL units including vehicles not armed with the tactics. Marine units still loose the tactics, but ALL units (vehicles) gain the tactic. The question is and has been, do allied forces as a part of the force organization count as a part of the army?

.... aaaaand we're back to needing to prove that Allies aren't part of the army. Nobody has been able to do it yet; the argument that they're Allies doesn't hold up, because they still use up FoC chart slots in my army list and are not seperate in any way. I can join my Inquisitorial ICs to friendly units, and indeed under RaW I HAVE to Summarily Execute an Inquisitor Lord who chooses to fail a Morale check (as he's entitled to do because of Iron Will) if the unit he joins includes a Commissar.

Finding a BRB definition of "army" and proving that Allies don't count as part of it, or explaining (with RaW backing) how units from the same Codex without Combat Tactics can benefit without allowing Allies to do so, seems to be the only way to stop Sisters' weapons counting as twin-linked.

Fire_hive wrote:
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Tri wrote:
.... 2 weeks before the 6TH ED is released making the rules obsolete ....No real idea when they've been making noise it will be soon (possibly 2nd one after SW) ... so next year knowing them ^__^

what do you mean 2 weeks before 6th edition? 6th edition of what?

I was referencing GW habit of releasing codex just before they release the next BGB intimately making the codex obsolete. All signs point to the next codex being soon but we've got 2-3 are also due soon. (Space Wolves being one)

I doubt we'll see an =][= Codex much before the middle of 2010. Both of the Inquisition Codexes are mostly used for Allies purposes at the moment, and as Allies they run fine even with cruddy 3rd Ed rules. There are far more popular armies awaiting updates and I'd wager they'll get releases first.

Wow, so much rage over "Yes, Vulkan Works with sisters."

You tell people that, though, and they don't believe you.

Instead they try and convince you that Allies aren't part of your army despite the fact that they quite blatantly are.

Nurglitch wrote:Inquisitorial Allies are a legacy of 4th edition, they'll be gone soon enough.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooes


That said, I'm rpetty sure "army" in those rules means your Space Marine army, allies not included.
Army as in Army List, you know?
Though I have to agree, the wording goes toward a "'yes".
RAW yes, RAI no, maybe?

InquisitorBob:

That is correct: the "army" reference in those refers to the Space Marine army. The 'wording', as you say, indicates unambiguously that allies do not benefit from Vulkan's rule.

Something to think about might be why the RAI suggests that the rule was not intended to be that way, while the RAW suggested that the rule is that way. The only evidence for RAI is, unsurprisingly, the rules as they are written. Likewise the meaning of the rules as they are written is fixed by the rest of the rules. Taken out of context, atomically, Vulkan's rule sure looks like it refers to the token army including units from the Space Marine army list and units from any allied list. But, given that the meaning of the term "army" has been fixed as mean the Space Marine army, that apparent meaning is false.

If I write a 1500pt army list and included some sisters of battle they are still part of the army. This is because allies become part of the army that's fielding them. It should also be noted even in larger games (10000+pts) you still are only allowed 1HQ, 1 Elite, 1 Fast and 2 Troop from DH and WH

Tri:

Yes and no. Yes, because the allied units are part of that combined Space Marine/Allied army, and no, because the allied units are not part of the Space Marine army. The rules in Codex: Space Marine refer to the latter and not the former. This distinction is what is commonly referred to as the type/token distinction, whereby the type of army that the rules refer to, the Space Marine army, is distinct from the specific or token army that you can make using Codex: Witch/Daemon Hunters.


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More about the type-token distinction.