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The reason I think necrons are kinda weak in 5e is because of assault. They need stubborn because they just get broken in HTH and then they get swept. Necrons are still pretty good against shooty though.

I was told basically the same thing from one of the employees at my local GW and by an employee that usually works at a different GW and most of this was confirmed by both of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

neiltj1 wrote:The reason I think necrons are kinda weak in 5e is because of assault. They need stubborn because they just get broken in HTH and then they get swept. Necrons are still pretty good against shooty though.

I recently discovered that necrons have the same INITIATE as orks..... Wow that's sad for the orks.

...Because both of these employees are aware of the interwebz. These rumors were posted on Bols a while back and then Bols stated that GW called crap on them, if I recall properly. Do you REALLY think that a REDSHIRT knows anything more than you or I?

combatmedic wrote:You know what? Assault is way to complicated, lets get rid of that.

Yeah I second that... see what you do is we both drop like $200 or $300 on mini's and paint them and make terrain. Now the trash talking starts and we deploy....then the we flip a coin to see who wins.....and until the coin flip FAQ is out no the real tactics come into play. After the new "How to flip a coin" Rulebook comes out ($52.99 US)....shorty there after followed the the "Calling a coin flip" Appendix (free download .PDF format)....then "Regulation size" wooden GW coins come out.....and then the fist fights start, bringing back the assault phase.

I'm still not convinced that an army with 2 saving throws and not to mention that there is probably a res orb somewhere needs anything more. Phase out is fair because of the amount of small arms fire they can take. And yes they have the monolith too. Necron warriors should be slow and purposeful and cost more and have phase out. The living armor on the monolith needs to be rethought out. The rule is ridiculous. How many times have you cracked the armor on the monolith AND blown it up........... Well nuff said

orkishlyorkish wrote:I recently discovered that necrons have the same INITIATE as orks..... Wow that's sad for the orks.

Orks have furious charge.

SW40KMP wrote:I'm still not convinced that an army with 2 saving throws and not to mention that there is probably a res orb somewhere needs anything more. Phase out is fair because of the amount of small arms fire they can take. And yes they have the monolith too. Necron warriors should be slow and purposeful and cost more and have phase out. The living armor on the monolith needs to be rethought out. The rule is ridiculous. How many times have you cracked the armor on the monolith AND blown it up........... Well nuff said

I sincerely hope that your statement is sarcastic, but from it's tone I don't think it is. I think you honestly believe what you wrote. I'll break the tradition of the interwebz at this point by not telling you why you are wrong, in a very not-nice fashion, and simply ask if you are new to 40k. Are you new to 40k?

To: SW40KMP
As a matter of fact, using... let's see...

1) A carnifex
2) A predator annihilator
and
3) A baneblade cannon

I have regularly killed off monoliths.

To: Kungfuhustler:

You said: "I sincerely hope that your statement is sarcastic, but from it's tone I don't think it is. I think you honestly believe what you wrote. I'll break the tradition of the interwebz at this point by not telling you why you are wrong, in a very not-nice fashion, and simply ask if you are new to 40k."

I love this forum! On the Runescape forums everybody breaks tradition by just telling people they are rubbish without giving them a reason, and nobody uses proper english. This place is so much better!

combatmedic wrote:How can anyone seriously think WBB is complicated?

...

You know what? Assault is way to complicated, lets get rid of that.

In my six years of playing 40k, by my estimate, We'll Be Back has caused more rules arguments than all other rules put together. As others have said, it's needlessly complex.

The real problem with it is that it is a very complex (in comparison to about 95% of the other rules out there) rule that only applies to one army, and as such in a typical game involving Necrons you're likely to only have one player intimately familiar with the rule; many of the arguments I've seen stemmed from someone learning the nuances of We'll Be Back on table trying to kill Necrons.

Moving it to Feel No Pain (with bonuses; I'm sure we'll see Resurrection Orbs that let Necron models within 12" take Feel No Pain rolls against attacks that ignore armor) puts it into the realm of rules that all players should be aware of.

There's no comparison to Assault -- Assault is a standard part of the game, and anyone playing the game has to know how Assault works. Assault may otherwise be more complex than We'll Be Back, but it applies to everyone.

Ardensfax wrote:3) The monolith will either cost more points or lose 'Living Metal'.

Taking away Living Metal from Monoliths would be like taking Assault Ramps from Land Raiders.
Sure they should simplify it to Always counts as Obsucred or something, but to remove it altogether would not be right.

p.s. WBB is not that complicated a rule.
And while I would prefer they keep it (perhaps with some rewording to fix any confusion), I would not be entirely opposed to FNP as a replacement.
The Orb would change simply enough, though a Tomb Spyder would need a new gimmick.

as much as i hate necrons i think they are too full of character to screw with the way the rumors are saying.

BoW- John

Lagduf wrote:

orkishlyorkish wrote:I recently discovered that necrons have the same INITIATE as orks..... Wow that's sad for the orks.

Orks have furious charge.

Yes but if I assault first then they don't get a bonus.

WBB is not complicated at all at the necrons next turn guys can come back to life on a 4+, unless they were instant deathed or didn't get their 3+ armor save. it's as hard to understand as fnp. The only thing I think they need to change is the whole deep strike monolith followed by entire army and living metal and the indestructible crystal is annoying.

How to take a WBB roll:

Did the weapon that killed your necron a double strength, or a no-save CC weapon? If there is no Orb, you dont get to roll.

Did your necron die due to a normal shooting or close combat attack? If so is there another model of the same type within 6"? If so take a roll.

In all my days of playing this game, and all the fights against necrons, even when the codex first came out, no one has ever had an issue with WBB. If this is to complicated for you, why are you playing?
Could they make the WBB rule simpler? Yes, I wont deny that. But taking it away cause its base value is "complicated" is stupid, the modifications the other units add make it difficult for someone who doesnt want to take more than 5 minutes to read the books rules.

Glad to see WBB is so perfectly clear to so many people out there, but unfortunately it's not so clear to a whole lot of players, many of them Necron players. Like some others have reported here I've seen this rule botched many times, often by the Necron players themselves.

It can be confusing to those of us who are slightly challenged with the cranial logistics... (If you understood that, then you aren't one of them. Offence-free comments, hooray! )

@combatmedic: You should write GW rules. You fail to cover all sitiuations and interactions with other rules, just as they do.

There's no reason to have models strewn all over the board, gacking up movement. Or having to measure and see if like units are nearby. Or arguning over how a res orb works when they go through a monolith. Or whether a res orb still works if the Lord is down. etc etc.

I want to know what happens if they get Tank Shocked. Do you get Orbed or not? Probably not.

Ardensfax wrote:Funny, I think the WBB rule is much less powerful than FNP, because of the following things:

1) You get to roll to get up as soon as they go down with FNP, unlike WBB.

2) You don't have to have a whole bunch of other necrons around to try to do FNP.

3) Good news for lords: You get to roll to get back up for each lost wound, not just on death.

QFT

You'll loose combat by alot less, will have to take less ld tests. (Why your not fearless to begin with I'll never know.)
I hate WBB!! So many little issues can come in game... Me in my mate already house ruled it as FNP and it's so much smoother and better for him.

LBB: Making necrons fearless with init 2 would be the same thing as handing them a death sentence. Stubborn works much better because fluff-wise necrons DO run away if they are completely screwed, but they are not going to run away until then. I will personally take a stubborn unit over a fearless one any day.

As I've said many times, if lying models down and picking them back up is the most characterful thing Necrons have going for them, it just underlines what a conceptual mess they are in the first place.

At the end of the day, lying models down is a representation. That bit of cotton wool coming out of the gun turret of the destroyed tank is not really cotton wool. It is actually a billowing cloud of smoke which comes directly after a lascannon shot lancing an explosion through one side of the tank before spearing out of the other, sending the gun turret flying into the air, or some other equally imaginative act of mayhem.

A similar thing is with the Necrons, IE: A warrior lying on his side represents scattered and smoking peices of metal, ominously crawling together.

Warhammer is, by its very nature, a game of representation. If you want the literal view of what really is happening, play Dawn of War!

Kungfuhustler wrote:LBB: Making necrons fearless with init 2 would be the same thing as handing them a death sentence. Stubborn works much better because fluff-wise necrons DO run away if they are completely screwed, but they are not going to run away until then. I will personally take a stubborn unit over a fearless one any day.

No you have to backwards I think. If they do run (ld 10 is a 1/9 chance) init 2 their almost insta dead against anyone. Fearless = I loos by 6 ok 6 armour saves 2 fail, feel no pain, Ok 1 more dies my whole unit sticks. Loosing by 6 is also kinda big if you loose by one or two your pretty much fine. I rather have plauge marines over a ld 10 chaos marine unit. Just my thoughts anyway.

I don't mind if WBB goes, yes it can be a bit clumsy (in its current wording), but Necrons do need something unique and characterful (more than just FNP) or they'll just be boring 'robots with the same stats as MEQs' - surely the whole point of having a separate race is that they should play very differently than other races.

Personally I think a major rejig of the basic unit and weapon stats lines (and points cost rejig to match) is the way to go. This has been discussed here and elsewhere many times, and there are heaps of fluffy interesting options, e.g. Necrons could all become T6, or get 2+ armour saves, or 3+ invulnerable saves or whatever, and the Gauss rules could also be changed (the general principle is fine, but maybe range could be changed or gauss could all become Assault weapons or something). If that means the basic Necron ends up being 30 points (or alternatively 10 poiints if reduced stats instead) then fine, at least it won't be just another MEQ.

I don't know... 30 points each would really mess you up for 1000 point tournament armies. The minimum you could spend on troops would be 600 pts, and assuming a lord costs 150 points average, that only leaves 250 to spend on interesting stuff.

Also T6 means bolters and most other standard infantry weapons only wound on 6s. I reckon that's overpowered.

I think most points are pretty good. 16 points for scarab swarms with fields attached. What if they made Warriors and Immortals both troops? Or maybe bring pariahs or flayed ones in as troops. Take one of the elites out and make it a troop is what I am saying. then, add in a nice elite choice.

Also a lesser C'Tan would be cool. I do not understand the fluff, so someone please explain what the big deal about the Dragon is? I love my 'crons....I think that phase out leaving is good, FNP being better, either that or some leadership modifier for assault. It sucks to take a lot of losses and not get to use WBB because you were swept.

What if the 'crons went along with some 'themed' army. Like you have nurgle, slaanesh and what not. So, have each C'Tan be a greater being for the Lord to change into, or take on their abilities.

combatmedic wrote:How to take a WBB roll:

Did the weapon that killed your necron a double strength, or a no-save CC weapon? If there is no Orb, you dont get to roll.

Did your necron die due to a normal shooting or close combat attack? If so is there another model of the same type within 6"? If so take a roll.

In all my days of playing this game, and all the fights against necrons, even when the codex first came out, no one has ever had an issue with WBB. If this is to complicated for you, why are you playing?
Could they make the WBB rule simpler? Yes, I wont deny that. But taking it away cause its base value is "complicated" is stupid, the modifications the other units add make it difficult for someone who doesnt want to take more than 5 minutes to read the books rules.

The WBB rules are not the confusing part, it's the ridiculous and ambiguous situations that occur with WBB that are confusing. Such as downed Necrons moving with their parent unit, or being wiped out by sweeping advance, or exactly when to check for WBB status, ect. Now many of those things have been clarified but often to the benefit of the Necron opponent and not the Necrons.

Or wierd things like Necron models that don't meet the conditions to make a roll are just left on the table, apparently.

Oh yes, talking of Pariahs, they will be getting the 2+ Armour, 4+ invulnerable, and basically be the same stats as chaos terminators. Also, warscythes and C'tan will no longer ignore invulnerable saves. Better amend post 1...

vipcaniac wrote:What if the 'crons went along with some 'themed' army. Like you have nurgle, slaanesh and what not. So, have each C'Tan be a greater being for the Lord to change into, or take on their abilities.

Basically, it's been strongly suggested to point that most folk are certain it's true that the Void Dragon is burried on Mars and possibly worshipped by the Mechanicus as the Omnissiah. Either way it has inspired the Mechanicus in there creations. And, of course, you have the minor issue of if a C'tan Stargod suddenly breaks out of Mars and starts warping in Necrons, taking command of Titans and such the Mechanicus will fall.

Of course, in theory the thing could escape quietly instead...the Nightbringer was too weak to risk getting burried again and even a Star God is likely to be worried by an Imperitor when he's desperately weak and hungry. He might just get the hell out of dodge if he's released rather than screwing up Mars. Which is less interesting and tastes more like Games Workshop.