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Chaos 1-2k: 3

Though I generally have 2 more squads of infantry. Infantry with a few special guns in transports seems to be the best way to run most armies now.

Warboss?!?

Also, the guy killed by the PK gets to strike.

The mob I actually assumed to have a Bosspole and 3 Rokkits.

Also, round 2 there, the Orks killed an overall 2.055, Termies killed 2.5. Termies didn't lose then.

Bear in mind though, the Orks would be very unlikely to get the charge on TH/SS Terminators, and without the charge, can't do anything to them.

How are the Orks so disadvantaged in getting the charge? Deffrolla cracks the Land Raider, then the Orks jump in, it isn't such a hard case to see. Or Termies kill a squad and get counter charged.

Either way, that one ork lost to no retreat hardly makes a difference, and I did have the Termies and PK's attacking at the same time. Also, sorry typed warboss, but meant nob and used nob stats.

Yeah...that all hinges on you playing the whole "Deff Rolla affects vehicles" thing, which isn't exactly uncontroversial. Anyway there can't be 30 Boys inside a BW, the Termies could hide behind the Wreck/Crater and be out of the way, the BW will stop unless the LR explodes, thus blocking the charge, and it's likely they won't be able to charge out of it anyway, unless it's open-topped, in which case it'll probably blow up too!

It also assumes no Land Speeder to get in the way, with a MM. lol

You do agree that the Orks will certainly lose if they don't charge, yes?

Not entirely, while the unit may die, they have the potential to kill an equal number of points in your army.

Also what about Burna Boyz in a Battle Wagon versus SS/TT Termies in a Land Raider. Not even in direct competition but in terms of which will kill more in an average game.

Norade wrote:Also what about Burna Boyz in a Battle Wagon versus SS/TT Termies in a Land Raider. Not even in direct competition but in terms of which will kill more in an average game.

If you are lucky and assume that the Template can hit 4 Termies, that results in 60 Hits, 30 Wounds, 25 Passed Saves, 5 Failed Saves.

Unless, ofc, they're still in the LR, in which case they can literally do f all, except wait to die.

or kill them with your tankbustas

Kill a Land Raider with Tankbustas? Really?

why not?

Shooting gives me 12 str 8 attacks (from the rokkits) and 3 str 8 attacks that hit on +2 (if you release all 3 squigs), followed by a charging assault of 6 Str 10 attacks (from tank hammers), 4 str 9 attacks (from nob PK) and 12 str 2D6+6 attacks (from the boyz using their tank busta bombs).

I've never really tried to assault a LR in this fasion in a real game, but it's certainly better than just sitting there crying about it.

Well, if you have 15 TBs shooting, you get 5 hits, which isn't enough to average one Glance. You can't Penetrate, so you can't destroy it anyway. If in CC, then it will have moved at least 1", so you hit on 4+ AT BEST. They need to use the Grenades to do anything, so 7.5 hits...

These hits DO have a 56% chance of being a Pen, so you have a decent chance to destroy the vehicle, but you won't surround, so you get charged. If it moved over 6" though, which is highly likely if Tankbustas were within the danger zone, then your 15 guys hit on 6s, with one attack each... :( Chance of destruction on (probably) one Pen roll, slim.

I really think we have to make some assumptions here:

Land Raider is always going to move 7"+, because the Marine player isn't a moron and realizes that this is a huge debuff to his opponent's CC-centric army.

Orks, unless you're running a Grot Kannon line (and nobody does), can't kill Raiders with shooting (Rokkits don't cut it, sorry) so they're forced to attempt in the assault.

Whether they succeed or fail, it's impossible to charge the unit inside the assaulted transport so they're arguably never going to get the charge, unless it's on a later turn.

The math for 30 Shoota Boyz charging Assault Terminators is decently in their favor, but it's an unrealistic scenario. You've got to assume they're receiving the charge because that's how it's going to be 9/10 times.

As chaos, depends. I normally try and run 4 troops (max) most games, depending on what I wanna play. Fluffy lists is always 4 squads. Normal lists, I try and aim for 6 at 2500+. I don't really have a points ratio, tho I should really make one

For Nids, I try and minimize troop choices by taking massive numbers. I always run my gaunts 20-30 strong per squad. If I run genestealers is 8-12 a squad. I never run more than 4-5 troop choices with nids because normally I just focus on running my foe off the board (to great effect might I add )

a fully decked out tankbusta squad is about 250-270 pnts. A LR is about 250 pnts right? That seems like an even trade if the termies have to evac and kill the bustas. They are now out of the LR and I can charge them with something else.

I think I'd go so far as to say that only Nob Bikes and Burna Boyz have ANY realistic hope in CC against TH/SS...and not even that much if they don't charge. Obviously Warbosses can hold their own, but they're one model.

I still think I'm ahead here. If my tankbustas manage to kill the LR and uproot the termies the termies then assault the bustas who still have PKs and tank hammers. They should do some small damage to the termies. If I was smart I was banking on this happening and I moved such that something with decent armor penetration was in the area to assault the Termies next like truck nobs, nob bikers, mega nobs, a full burna wagon, a warboss, KMB kans. Hopefully the tankbustas did enough to give me the edge, and I should get the charge since the termies were busy killing my bustas. Also my BW the bustas rode in probably had a deff roller on it since that's how I roll. That's D6 str 10 attacks. If they try for death or glory I gets another D6 str 10 attacks.

Though if it was only one LR/termie squad I might try and ignore it and kill other stuff and take objectives. It seems like too much attention for one unit.

out of curiosity 10 TH/SS charge 29 Orcs, nob PK, Bosspole, 29 Ork Boys with 2 attacks hitting 1/2 and wounding 1/3 with 1/6 unsaved= 1.6, Nob with 3 attacks hitting 1/2 wounding 1/6 and 1/3 saved=.41 we will be nice and say that the Ork Boys killed both

8 Termis strike back 10 dead

orks loose by 8, loose another 7 so orks down to 13

next round 1 termi dies and remaining 7 kill 6 boyz, orks loose by 5 now down to ld 2 with modifiers and run never to return.

so 3 dead termies and 23 dead orks, plus they are running away.

as for the original post... completely depends with necron i run two squads of 10 at 1500 otherwise you are asking to be phased out (counter intuitive i know but having squads of warriors is just asking for a CC squad to sweep them and then you are down 10 necrons)

So 10 footslogging assault termies are assumed to get the charge vs 30 ork boyz, that probably have ghazgull since it is a horde army. Sorry, orks will be getting the charge if the termies aren't in a land raider. This comparison is also unfair, as it is ~200 points of orks vs 400 points of terminators.

If you put them in a Land Raider you're up to 650 points versus 250 at most. However the point was that a poster said he would rather have 30 Boyz than 10 Termies, and I agree with that. One can hold objectives, and can beat the other under the right circumstances and it comes at just over half the points. 5 SS/TT Termies, versus 29 Boyz with PK Nob is even more laughable.

The 5 Termies charge the Ork mob. The Ork Boyz hit for 1.61 kills and the nob hits for 0.625 for a total of 2.235 dead Termies. The Termies hit for 3.33 kills, a win, but the Orks only lost by 1 this time.

Next round the Orks hit back inflicting 1.388 deaths with the Boyz, and 0.625 kills with the Nob. The 2 Termies left after last round and the Boyz attacks, hit back for 1.66 deaths and the round is a draw on average.

Now the Orks attack the lone Termie and he goes down to the Boyz without even needing the PK. The Orks win on the SM players turn and go on to charge something else having lost only 6 Boyz on average.

Well, to be fair, most of the time it's going to be 6 termies + some shooting first.

But yeah, at equal points values Boyz > Terminators.

I take just three to four in games up to 2000 pts for my Eldar, CSM or SM armies.
For Dark Eldar, you need to max out troops.

Elessar wrote:Well, if you have 15 TBs shooting, you get 5 hits, which isn't enough to average one Glance. You can't Penetrate, so you can't destroy it anyway. If in CC, then it will have moved at least 1", so you hit on 4+ AT BEST. They need to use the Grenades to do anything, so 7.5 hits...

These hits DO have a 56% chance of being a Pen, so you have a decent chance to destroy the vehicle, but you won't surround, so you get charged. If it moved over 6" though, which is highly likely if Tankbustas were within the danger zone, then your 15 guys hit on 6s, with one attack each... :( Chance of destruction on (probably) one Pen roll, slim.

15 at +4 to hit is 7.5 hits average, but I added tank hammers and PK to get 22 attacks on the charge. That should be 22 at +4 to hit is 11 hits. On +6 to hit that would be 22 attacks getting on average 3.6 hits on average...and if I only used grenades for 15 attacks its 1/6*15 or 2.5 hits. That combine with the possible glancing hits from shooting should screw with the LR pretty bad(the squigs hit on a 2+ if I'm crazy enough to use them). Immobilizing and destroying all the LR's weapons is effectively destroying it. We can then drive away and ignore it. The termies now have to pile out to do anything and on foot I'll probably get the charge with my mech ork units or ghaz waagh footsloggers.

*appended*

well the tankbustas can move away, but they will probably still try and shoot the LR unless some other armor is in range. Wasted shooting... darn glory hog rule.

I usually take four Tactical Squads in 2,000 point games.

4 in 1750 points. Might be worth turing it into a poll somehow

I take 5 squads of CSM. 10 man upgrades all round plus HQ, thats how i like my Chaos.

Tyranids I also take 5, but they are more varied.

For my Tau I usually take 3 Troops, 12 guys in a 'fish and 2x 6 Tau squads for random fire support and garrison duty. My main problem with them is that they are a tad fragile and without special weapons to bump up the uberkillyness

Guard wise I have 4 troops choices, although this does come out as 7 actual squads. Again, 2 squads of mech vets, a platoon for garrison duty and a penal legion squad for flank defence.

A Land Raider is more than big enough to cover the objective, and prevent the Boyz controlling it. If it's a Crusader, several Orks die before the charge, if a Redeemer, and it somehow reaches you, even more die.

Also, if you have Tank Hammers and a PK, your shooting is affected so much that you now average ZERO Glances, still.

Tankbustas are only any good against AV14 in CC.

Surely we can all agree on this point.

I regularly field 3 broods of gaunts without number, and try to go second.

If I add another brood, 90% of the time it is genestealers, but it is rare, and tends to be in rather large games.

Without number lets Tyranid troops have some use, as genestealers are killed about as easily as gaunts, or moreso, depending on whether they accidentally kill a unit on the assault.
(Except that one time 6 gaunts stood for two game turns in CC with a venerable dread. . . considering that, GSs die easier than gaunts - and worse, they stay dead)

Elessar wrote:A Land Raider is more than big enough to cover the objective, and prevent the Boyz controlling it. If it's a Crusader, several Orks die before the charge, if a Redeemer, and it somehow reaches you, even more die.

Also, if you have Tank Hammers and a PK, your shooting is affected so much that you now average ZERO Glances, still.

Tankbustas are only any good against AV14 in CC.

Surely we can all agree on this point.

I'll agree with that. The shooting was really just a bonus on top of the CC. Also I'd like to point out that during shooting up to 3 models can release squigs instead of shooting rokkits. That means the 2 tank hammers and 1 PK could release squigs instead of firing rokkits, which make back on the lost rokkit attacks and is actually better than shooting rokkits since they hit on a 2+....though if I get a 1 they will most likely hit the BW the tankbustas rode in on

and agian this all assumes I'm not multicharging the LR with nobz and/or a warboss and/or some dreads, which I probably will considering the cost of a termie TH/SS LR unit. A warboss with PK and attack squig joined with the tankbustas alone improves my chances greatly.

Of course, but if a player has a LR of TH/SS (and any sense) then he also has at least 2 more of them. Chances are, you can't assault 3 LRs, and kill them all.

Especially since they're almost always going to move 6.1"+, so you hit on 6's. They can drive around releasing 3 MMs into the BWs, and piles of Bolter fire into the Boyz.