Albatross wrote:I lived in Spain (a socialist country) for a year and a half and their system requires you to pay tax for a year before being eligible for benefits. Also I have dutch friends who tell me a similar system exists in The Netherlands - it's a little bit more than six months. Why shouldn't it be the same in the UK?

Albatross wrote:...if you are a non-skilled worker in the UK, the jobs you are applying for are very often filled by people who are not from this country.

Albatross wrote:...and why shouldn't I care about that? But since you used to work in a JobCentre in Sheffield that no foreigners visit (apparently) I must bow to your superior knowledge, as my experience obviously counts for dick.

ShumaGorath wrote:It's weird, I went to a local job center over the summer and I saw no british people at all.

George Spiggott wrote:

Albatross wrote:I must bow to your superior knowledge, as my experience obviously counts for dick.

This is hyperbole. Stop pretending that you're arguing from a moderate position and that I said something extreme. There's wisdom in the last sentence though.

Albatross wrote:

Spot the Brit? Or spot the white?

How do you know the other people you see in a job centre aren't British?

British people don't generally need interpreters (paid for by the tax-payer) to speak to other British people. I visited Job-centres regularly to search for part-time work and this is something I noticed. Are you telling me I DIDN'T notice it? Also, when I attended a job-interview through the same service, I was the only British applicant out of 20-odd ( I met them in the waiting room). What I was implying by the statement I made was that an inordinate amount of people claiming benefits in my area seem to be non-British. Maybe it's different on the mean streets of Cornwall!
Please don't make me out to be a racist - I made no mention of skin-colour. Not cool.

I live in Bristol. Interesting place Bristol, you should watch this week's Panorama programme on BBC iplayer. There is a very serious racial issue here in this city and a very high rate of immigrant placement in the city.

Nice strawman. Your gripe was that they were applying for jobs. Remember?

This is hyperbole. Stop pretending that you're arguing from a moderate position and that I said something extreme. There's wisdom in the last sentence though.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I am from Cornwall, I live in Bristol.

I am an immigrant...

squilverine wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I am from Cornwall, I live in Bristol.

I am an immigrant...

Bloody Cornish coming over here to Bristol bringing their stinking pasties and clotted cream. Sod off back to where you came from and stop taking up all the flats on Barton Hill

smiling Assassin wrote:

I'm going to try and move off that horrible Gladiatorial gak on Television, I found something about another hateful young swine - Mark Collett.

Former head of the Youth BNP (hey, any parallels?), he's been quoted as saying:

"The Royals have betrayed their people. When we're in power they'll be wiped out and we'll get some Germans to rule properly."

smiling Assassin wrote:I thought it was a fething farce, a disgrace to what is normally a fantastic programme.

I wanted to hear Griffin's bigotted views when faced with normal policy questions, like everyone else, but this was just a horrific form of public bullying.

I hate the man's guts, but in a society based around free speech, free debate, and good pies, this was a freak show, a kangaroo court where Dimbleby was the sordid ringleader. It was shocking to see the audience and the panellists reduced thus. And when they finally get to something about another Party, this serves as a breather until they can just shout at Griffin again! This isn't how our politics should be conducted. The only light on the situation was the Baroness, she was fantastic.

Albatross wrote: You seem to be the type of person who gets offended if people criticise our immigration situation...

Albatross wrote: Not just that - the fact that in addition to filling many unskilled jobs (I assume you have McDonalds/Burger King/Primark in Sheffield?), we have visitors claiming benefits seemingly at the point of entry - that bothers me, especially during a recession. Many people from all walks of life share my opinion - it's a perfectly reasonable opinion to have, and not a 'crock of gak' as you so rudely put it.

Albatross wrote: What would be a moderate position in this case? - I'm dying to know, because allowing unchecked immigration WOULD be a fairly extreme position to take on this matter.

Albatross wrote: You would struggle to find many Britons who would share your views in the current climate.

Fraid not, nice bit of prejudice there though.

filling many unskilled jobs

Albatross wrote:
for example, we have a shortage of engineers at present so it would make sense to employ foreign engineers to fill that particular skills-gap.

dogma wrote:...but the really high paying positions tend to be fast tracked to the best students; who also tend to pay the least for their education.

Wrexasaur wrote:
Could you elaborate on what you mean here? How do the best students end up paying less for their education? I don't know many self-taught engineers (if any for that matter), so I am not exactly sure what it is you mean here.

“Albatross” wrote:'many is not 'all' retail jobs - again, maybe this isn't the case in Sheffield, but if not that would make Sheffield fairly unique amongst large metropolitan areas in the UK.

“Albatross” wrote:You haven't stated your position on this matter at all, so this isn't a debate - you're just trolling me, really.

No, non-English speakers do not go for public facing retail jobs; they don’t get them because they can’t communicate with their customers. Warehousing, cleaning and unskilled factory work, yes. Retail, no. Not just in Sheffield, everywhere.

Not just that - the fact that in addition to filling many unskilled jobs (I assume you have McDonalds/Burger King/Primark in Sheffield?), we have visitors claiming benefits seemingly at the point of entry

I don’t believe that foreign unskilled workers are a problem (even less so since Sterling devalued and fewer of them come over). Could the benefits system be tightened up? For sure, across the board but that’s a thread all by itself right there so I won’t go into detail here.

Albatross wrote:Never said anything specifically about retail in the first place, never said anything about non english-speakers, in any case - THIS is what I said… … Read it properly this time.

Albatross wrote:British people don't generally need interpreters (paid for by the tax-payer) to speak to other British people. I visited Job-centres regularly to search for part-time work and this is something I noticed.

Albatross wrote:Just saying that foreign workers aren't a problem and that the benefits system needs tightening up? So insubstantial, no wonder I disregarded it. I'm not 'playing the victim', it's not 'all too much for me' - you're just being a bit of a dick and you're not worth wasting time on, that's all. Get some opinions and back them up - don't just pointlessly nitpick at other people's. That IS trolling, despite what you say. You haven't contributed anything to what could otherwise have been an interesting debate.

The leader of the BNP, Nick Griffin, found himself the victim of an extraordinary attack from his own supporters last night following his controversial appearance on the BBC's Question Time.

As a public postmortem into one of the most divisive broadcasts in the corporation's history attempted to gauge its impact on the party's fortunes, Lee Barnes, the BNP's legal officer, accused Griffin of "failing to press the attack" during the televised debate, which was watched by a record 8 million people. Others sympathetic to the BNP's views expressed dismay at Griffin's flustered attempts to appeal to the mainstream.

The BNP's critics were quick to use the comments as proof of deep divisions within the party's membership over how it should position itself with the electorate. Griffin has claimed that he has dragged the party into the political mainstream. But the resulting backlash from those on his own side suggests many are uncomfortable with the BNP's attempts to cloak itself in more moderate terms.

Barnes complained on his personal website that Griffin "should have stood up to these whining, middle-class hypocrites that use the race card for self-enrichment – and thrown the truth right back into their fat, sanctimonious, hypocritical, self-serving faces". He accused his party's leader of "failing to press the attack" on the "ethnic middle class" for "taking up the best jobs while still playing the bogus race card for every opportunity". And in a move that is likely to reinforce concerns that Griffin's appearance will spark violence, Barnes used his personal website to suggest that "perhaps there needs to be a few 'white riots' around the country a la the Brixton riots of the 1980s before the idiot white liberal middle class and their ethnic middle-class fellow travellers wake up".

A spokesman for the anti-fascist organisation Searchlight said: "This strips away once and for all Nick Griffin's pretence that the BNP is a non-violent organisation. Lee Barnes is not just another BNP member, he is the organisation's legal officer, and here he is talking about riots in the streets. The BNP hoped the Question Time appearance would mark their entry to the political mainstream, but instead they have pushed themselves back to the violent, extremist political fringe where they belong."

Labour MP Jon Cruddas said: "If this is the view expressed by Griffin's legal officer, imagine the views among the hardcore BNP membership."

Griffin's performance on Question Time, in which he was ambivalent about incendiary comments he had made in the past, admitted to links with the Ku Klux Klan, attacked Islam and appeared sweaty, smirking and evasive, has been widely derided in the media and by politicians from all the main parties. But the party's sympathisers are also joining the attack. Negative comments from BNP supporters were posted on the party's website yesterday, but many were quickly taken down.

One comment read: "Maybe some coaching could of been done so that Mr Griffin could of answered any questions articulately."

And in far-right internet chatrooms, the mood last night was one of a missed opportunity. In the Stormfront online forum, a BNP sympathiser said: "It was quite a bad performance by Griffin in comparison to his other TV appearances. Though he managed to get one or two things over (despite the constant interruptions and barracking) that would appeal to the majority, he did seem overawed by the occasion and was not, for the most part, at his best."

Another said: "It's almost like Nick went on expecting a normal episode of Question Time, it was always going to be a hatchet job and he should have been fully prepared for questions relating to his past. This lack of preparedness left him open to attack and flustered when asked to provide a reply." Another commented: "I'm starting to think this appealing to the mainstream approach is the wrong direction. I would rather have seen George Lincoln Rockwell [founder of the American Nazi party] on the panel, there would have been a riot."

The emerging splits within the BNP's core support over Griffin's performance came amid claims that Question Time had acted as a recruiting agent for the far-right party. A poll for the Daily Telegraph published yesterday suggested that 22% of the electorate would "seriously consider" voting BNP, while the party claimed thousands had registered for information following Griffin's appearance. "By the end of the night 9,000 new people had signed up as registered potential members or on our mailing lists," Simon Bennett, the BNP's webmaster, declared. "In the Euro elections, we gained 40,000 enquiries, but spent £500,000 to do so – on Question Time we spent peanuts but gained almost 25% of the Euro election total in eight hours! We had to upgrade our server capacity enormously, which allowed us to cope with extra traffic."

The claims seemed to reinforce concerns expressed by the Welsh secretary, Peter Hain, who had opposed Griffin's appearance on Question Time. "The BBC has handed the BNP the gift of the century on a plate and now we see the consequences," Hain said. "I'm very angry."

The BNP – and indeed the entire far-right movement – is no stranger to infighting and claims of splits will be dismissed by its high command. Griffin, a former key player in the National Front, assumed control over the party only after ousting its founder, John Tyndall.

Since then he has shored up his position, surrounding himself with a core of lieutenants and taking control of party finances. This has led to concerns that Griffin has become too powerful. Several senior BNP members quit after he overhauled the constitution to make his position as leader practically unassailable.

In far-right chat rooms yesterday many were asking whether the Question Time appearance was a watershed. "Griffin carries too much baggage to act as spokesman for the BNP," one said. "I lost count of the number of times past quotes came back to haunt him."