Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'll say this once I started using them I absolutely love the Landspeeder Typhoon.

Lots of people are for the multimelta ; h. flamer and its a fantastic choice.

You can't bet 2 STR 8 shots or 2 ST4 Blasts and 3 ST5 shots tho.

I think the range is what I like the most.

Mahu's is quite right in most points. I'll add .

11. Always take multiples for everything.

12a. Your units should have duality (have multiple purposes)

12b. Your units should still have a dedicated purpose (if they are trying to do multiple things it will fail, but be prepared for anything)

13. You should be mechanized. (consider this my golden rule)

14. Melta is the most valuable weapon.

15. Speed kills.

16. Vanguard, Honor Guard, Scout Bikers, Thunderfire Cannon, and Whirlwinds are units you stay away from.

EzeKK wrote:Mahu's is quite right in most points. I'll add .

16. Vanguard, Honor Guard, Scout Bikers, Thunderfire Cannon, and Whirlwinds are units you stay away from.

Disagree here. Thunderfire Cannons and Whirlwinds are VERY good units for a low point cost and the only units that SM have that fling ranged templates that ignore cover saves. The Techmarine also brings very good synergy to a shooty marine list with his abilities in addition to the heavy 4 blast cannon he totes along.

Well, they are all useful, but they have a pretty narrow application.

That, to some, is a sign of weakness.

I would say that they are units to try and used to support the army.
I would NOT suggest them to be the main assets of a list.

Scout Bikers are deceptively powerful.

In regards to sternguard, I have a suggestion on how to use them. I have only seen them used this way, haven't used them myself.

Libby with gate, nullzone (Or tigurius)

Sternguard w/2 heavy flamers, powerfist, combi-meltas to taste in a drop pod.

You have several options here. You have achieved generalization because you are a threat to all units with either anti-infantry with multiple template, anti tank with multiple meltas, and decent assault.

Should you chose the drop, you can get out and hammer a unit, and gate away the next turn to do it again. If you find yourself facing Pie plate IG, you can hold these guys back and gate around with your libby (or steal a transport). The drop pod now adds +1 to your numbers for drop pod assault. If you had 2 dread dropping, you can drop them both now on turn 1.

Tigurius can add some nasty utility - nullzone, avenger, forcedome on the drop is nothing to sneeze at. Plus he can boost your reserve rolls.

Every time I use my sternguard like this, they got shot to pieces on the next turn

I just stick them in a rhino

Or take one hammer unit with 5 combimeltas and 5 combi flamers drop in and take pot shots at targets of oppurtuniy.

Also, Scout bikers are deceptively powerful unit. Do not knock a 20 point toughness 5 model I dont care if it cannot score.


Also,
Sternguard with Pedro but in a Rhino with 2 lascannons or Plasma Cannons is a great unit to objective sit.

Rhino > than drop pod on sternguard most of the time imo

Overall i would say:
Rhino > Drop Pod Nearly all the time

Ironclad and such are obviously a differant case though

Obviously because they can't surf rhinos?

Sanctjud wrote:Obviously because they can't surf rhinos?

Pissed off Rhino agrees, can't surf rhinos!

11. Always take multiples for everything.

Not necessarily true. Certain units can be used in a single model / unit compacity, such as Thunderfire Cannons and Assault Terminators. It's a trap to think you have to absolutely take multiples of everything because you can end up wasting points. It's more important to know what the units in your army are going to do first.

12a. Your units should have duality (have multiple purposes)

12b. Your units should still have a dedicated purpose (if they are trying to do multiple things it will fail, but be prepared for anything)

Your units should be good at something but tactically flexible to handle multiple situations, which is the key to good Marine Strategy. That's why I take Vortex of Doom on my Librarian that rides with the Assault Terminators, if absolutely pressed I have something that can pop a tank, so I can get the charge off.

13. You should be mechanized. (consider this my golden rule)

I agree, Mech Marines are the best Marines.

14. Melta is the most valuable weapon.

But not the only weapon, I have shot myself in the foot before by not having things to deal with Hordes.

15. Speed kills.

More cautious and reactionary moves over aggressive ones.

16. Vanguard, Honor Guard, Scout Bikers, Thunderfire Cannon, and Whirlwinds are units you stay away from.

Vanguard and Honor Guard are over priced, but extremely effective if they hit their target, Thunderfire Cannons are made of pure win, Whirlwinds are a nice cheap alternative to Predators, Scout Bikers have their place.


List building is more knowing what you are doing with what then maximizing on a few good units and taking multiples.

I can field a Thunderfire Cannon in a Vulkan List because I know I can pop transports and mop up the guys in side by pure weight of wounds. Synergy of units, battle plan, and anticipation of your enemy are key points of any strategy. For Marines, they excel at reactionary moves, mid field domination, and surgical striking. Synergy of units doesn't necessarily mean multiples of the same unit.

Thunderfire Cannons are incredible.

they have good range, and can do something every turn.

even if you are facing land raider spam, you can put difficult terrain under the land raiders and hope they roll 1's on their tests next turn.

one game my opponent killed 6 TH/SS terminators in one round of shooting from just the thunderfire, (bad consolodation after an assault, left a placement where a "hit" gave him 5 termies, all 4 shots hit, str 6 shot, pulled out 19 wounds, 6 failed saves.

another game the difficult terrain shot immobilized 2 land raiders on turn 1, (one shot scattered onto a second land raider, both of them rolled 1's)

there are a tricks to using them,

Put them in a ruin, and Bolster that ruin. 3+ cover saves are your friend.

If it is a multiple-level ruin, with small-ish platforms, put the techmarine on the top level, with the gun directly underneith him. When assaulting a thunderfire you ignore the gun and must reach the techmarine, but the unit must stay out of the 1" bubble before the assault phase, so with the size of the gun you can prevent the enemy from assaulting at all unless they roll a 6. (or make it impossible to assault at all, if the gun takes up the entire platform)

@Thunderfirecannons:
Not mobile is the killer for me.
It's a utility piece, but not everyone's cup of tea.

Sanctjud wrote:@Thunderfirecannons:
Not mobile is the killer for me.
It's a utility piece, but not everyone's cup of tea.

DoW kills it IMO. If you can't deploy it in terrain, you run a risk of losing it to a DT test if you try and move into cover. That and it has problems against Mechanized armies. Don't get me wrong, when it works it works BIG, but when it doesn't (and depending on your meta, that could be quite often) it's a waste of 100 points.

I would also put whirlwinds in the category of things that are worth considering if you already have two predators/raiders and are looking for an efficient third heavy.

By forcing opponents with 4+ or worse saves to spread out--even if there's cover--they force your enemy to play to a particular weakness even before the whirlwind actually shoots.

But indirect fire allows them to do things that even thunderfires can't do. That unit of kroot dug in on an objective completely out of sight behind the wreck? Unit of genestealers trying to sneak up on your guys by going behind that LoS-blocking mountain? One incendiary barrage hit can take em out.

Just get some tactical squads and whatever else you want, infantry is the backbone of any Space Marine army.

The biggest thing to remember with the Thunderfire is it's 60" range. So it doesn't need mobility, just a decent place on the board.

Dawn of War isn't that big of a deal either because, you just move on turn one and fire every other turn.

Long range + true line of sight + a cover save ignoring shell = effectiveness.

Demogerg wrote:If it is a multiple-level ruin, with small-ish platforms, put the techmarine on the top level, with the gun directly underneith him. When assaulting a thunderfire you ignore the gun and must reach the techmarine, but the unit must stay out of the 1" bubble before the assault phase, so with the size of the gun you can prevent the enemy from assaulting at all unless they roll a 6. (or make it impossible to assault at all, if the gun takes up the entire platform)

Is this true? Can you make it imposaible to assault the unit?

What if the theme is mobility?
What if having a static piece works against the list.
Like I said, it's a taste issue.

It's nice to have the cool rounds, but I don't regard it very highly. In addition, it just don't look very 'Space Marine'.

If your theme is mobility then it doesn't work.

But my argument wasn't theme but effectiveness in a competitive environment.

Commandment 3 is wrong

Why?
take 3 tac squads in pods with locator beacons for troops. have two dreds(any kind) in pods. have the dreds and one squad come in on turn one via DP assault. have assault marines(with a Jpack chappie) and terminators in reserve.
Deep strike in subsequent turns on target 100% of the time
weapons options depend on situation
no heavy weapons on tacs

Hint; this can be countered, but it takes some specilization on the part of the opponent

Commandment 4 is always true, see above

Thunderfire cannons are very useful in appoclypse, but in smaller games they die very quickly

Demogerg wrote:If it is a multiple-level ruin, with small-ish platforms, put the techmarine on the top level, with the gun directly underneith him. When assaulting a thunderfire you ignore the gun and must reach the techmarine, but the unit must stay out of the 1" bubble before the assault phase, so with the size of the gun you can prevent the enemy from assaulting at all unless they roll a 6. (or make it impossible to assault at all, if the gun takes up the entire platform)

Is this true?

Grey Templar wrote:Commandment 3 is wrong

Why?
take 3 tac squads in pods with locator beacons for troops. have two dreds(any kind) in pods. have the dreds and one squad come in on turn one via DP assault. have assault marines(with a Jpack chappie) and terminators in reserve.
Deep strike in subsequent turns on target 100% of the time
weapons options depend on situation
no heavy weapons on tacs

Hint; this can be countered, but it takes some specilization on the part of the opponent

Not deploying anything at the start of the game is specialization?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jimbob2002 wrote:

Demogerg wrote:If it is a multiple-level ruin, with small-ish platforms, put the techmarine on the top level, with the gun directly underneith him. When assaulting a thunderfire you ignore the gun and must reach the techmarine, but the unit must stay out of the 1" bubble before the assault phase, so with the size of the gun you can prevent the enemy from assaulting at all unless they roll a 6. (or make it impossible to assault at all, if the gun takes up the entire platform)

Is this true?

It's technically true according to the rules, that if you can't get into btb contact because a model takes up the whole surface of an elevated platform and doesn't allow anything else up there, no assault can happen.

But most people I know would never play it that way. The most common way to handle it in practice is if they roll high enough on the terrain roll, assume the models are in base-to-base even though there's no physical room to position it up there.

KK, thanks flavius

@flavius

In a tournament you don't have to show your list, and in friendly games either for that matter.

if your opponent dosn't know you have DPs he will have a more difficult time countering.

If he doesn't see your list, he'll see your army on it's carry tray and know you have DPs in which case he'll know unless you keep them sealed in a case. Plus, that kind of a d-bag thing to do.

Grey Templar wrote:@flavius

In a tournament you don't have to show your list, and in friendly games either for that matter.

if your opponent dosn't know you have DPs he will have a more difficult time countering.

Well, tournaments vary, although I can say that in 10 years I've never played at a tournament or store that wasn't open-list, and either way, I've never played at a tournament where I didn't know what everybody had brought after the first round (the lunchtime gossip).

But I suppose if you were playing in the first round of a hidden-list tournament *and* kept your models in the bag *and* got second turn, you could pull the drop pod surprise assault.

Still seems like too rare a possibility to build a list around, though.

Grey Templar wrote:Commandment 3 is wrong

Why?
take 3 tac squads in pods with locator beacons for troops. have two dreds(any kind) in pods. have the dreds and one squad come in on turn one via DP assault. have assault marines(with a Jpack chappie) and terminators in reserve.
Deep strike in subsequent turns on target 100% of the time
weapons options depend on situation
no heavy weapons on tacs

Hint; this can be countered, but it takes some specilization on the part of the opponent

Commandment 4 is always true, see above

Thunderfire cannons are very useful in appoclypse, but in smaller games they die very quickly

Tac squads cannot take locator beacons. They can tale teleport homers, and Pods cannot teleport.

Grey Templar wrote:@flavius

In a tournament you don't have to show your list, and in friendly games either for that matter.

if your opponent dosn't know you have DPs he will have a more difficult time countering.

Your area may be drastically different, but from my experience, its standard for tournaments to require you to show your list ahead of time. This means that winning is more about being a good player, and less about having dirty tricks.

i specifically said the pods have the beacons

were i play we arn't required to show your list. normally we have a disinterested third party examine lists for leagality(normally whoever is standing at the table next to you)

and even if your opponent knows you have pods, he has already made a list in a tourny and can't change. True he can hold things in reserve, but that will only get him so far.

On DP assault are you required to have half come down right away? or is this optional? i always come down because it normally suits me, but in certain situations (like everything opposing in reserve) you might not want to.