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Lomar4976 wrote:

Having looked into a vending machine, he says that the rentals are way too pricey for the expected return, no companies were willing to offer any trials and wanted to tie him down to a fixed term (usually 12 month minimum) contract.
If theres anyone knows of any companies that were willing to offer shorter term (3 month or so) contracts based in the UK as a trial then please let me know so I can pass it on, as its something he wanted to try from day 1, just found it impractical on a limited budget.

What my FLGS does is they purchase a small variety of snacks cfrom a distributor and just put them on a typical rack in the store, no vending machine. It seems to do very well. He also rents a cooler that he stocks with drinks.

mikhaila wrote:First: The LGS is a failed buisness model. Those that survive in this day and age are the exception to the rule.

They are trying to cater to a niche market that can find more for less on-line and who use this advantage to bully and threaten store owners into maintainign personal clubhouses for them.

The owner is in a catch-22 because he is trying to maintain a buisness that is flawed in concept to begin with and who can't afford to do much of anythign that challenges the status quo (despite that status quo leading to a failed buisness far more times then not) becasue of threats and fears of customer reprisals. Not a healthy situation to be in from a buisness perspective, but sadly is usually the case when it comes to game stores.

So your store failed, and you're bitter, and rather than blame yourself for the failure, it's easier to blame the customers and the 'failed business model'. Got it!

Sorry if I disagree. I've had gaming shops for 22 years. Good times, rough times. Still here. I'll be here 20 years from now. (No choice, somehow have a pair of identical twin girls, and it's 14 years until they even start colledge!)

My 'clubhouse' is 2200 square feet in a mall, with 9k in rent. We also have a 2500 square foot gaming area we also rent from the mall. I have 24 GW tournaments scheduled in the next year, with lots of support from GW. ( I like to 'challenge the status quo' I guess).

Yeah Mikhalia you would be the exception to t he rule that I mentioned, though you might have missed that point in your rush to pat yourself on the back.

For every store as apparaently successful as you I would wager there are hundreds more barely scraping by and many scores that have come and gone in the time you have been in existance. I have lived in four stats in the past twenty years and can't count on my fingers and toes any more the stores just in the places i lived that have come and gone, and the friends and internet sources from all around the globe regularly report likewise.

Suggesting that because you have managed to be successful that the typical LGS format is a sound buisness model is like a lottery winner saying that the lottery involves no luck and that most people don't lose when partaking in it...

One thing CT Gamer has said is correct, for every successful store there are hundreds more barley scraping by. I believe all the gaming stores in my small city of 80 000 have gone bye bye. The 2 comic stores that did sell GW stuff don't do it anymore.

Mini's or gaming stores is not a viable buisness these days. I guess location is a major place to be successful.

And if you look at the resturant and bar business, it's just as bad. Does that make resturants and bars a bad business model.

Yes, a lot of small and poorly run game stores come and go on a regular basis. I'm part of a group of retailers that tutors new and wannabe game store owners, and in several national retail groups. There are a lot of very good game stores out there. Many of them much older than my 20 years. The common factor they all have is very good customer service.

Expand your theory a bit:

-Crappy little underfunded game stores = bad resturant or bar = doesn't last long.
-Good well stocked game store with good customer service = resturant with good food and service = lasts for years.

Part of the good service for game stores is providing gaming space and not charging for it.

Davor: Location, Location, Location. Still the most important 3 things in starting a business. And right now, you're correct, many game/comic/hobby stores are scraping by. But that hold true for a vast majority of all businesses. The economy, unemployment, and lack of funding is killing much more than game stores. I make less now working 70 hours a week than I did 10 years ago working 35 hours a week.

To combat the problems other stores are having, I, (and many other good game stores), are working longer hours, bringing in new product lines, adding more organized play and game space, running more demo games, and working on ways to give better customer service to our customers. Nothing focuses and refines your retailing skills like a crappy economy.) Right now, most people equate success in business with just surviving.

1. I think a nominal fee of $1-4 for the day is reasonable and if a store had quality tables and terrain and kept the space clean and odor free I would pay it without question.

Alright, maybe if my store had all of that then I'd be inclined to agree...

But felt is not terrain. As long as I'm playing with felt forests and rivers I'm not paying a dime, sorry.

I worked at a comic and gaming shop for 7 years.

Free gaming space is pretty important, and there are ways to make up that revenue. One of the easiest ways, as people have been saying, is sell beverage and snacks. During your tournaments, sell pizza. Charge for tournaments, and then have four or five tournaments a week.

The people who would pay for gaming space are right. Certainly, if you're paying rent on the space, and people are using the space, the space should be used to make money. Not to mention, if you're investing time and money in building a great gaming space, you should expect to get something back for it. But charging for time is a huge turnoff and a pain in the ass, and you'll lose a lot of business doing it.

BTW, I've been to Mikhaila's store (and I believe he has several, actually) and it's AWESOME. If I lived in his area, I'd be there all the time.

Keep track of your players and if somebody's a jerk, talk to them, and kick them out if you have to. You don't need to put up a sign of acceptable behaviors, people should just be expected not to be a schmuck, and the warning system does the job.

I'm not sure why it's an either/or situation. Granted, I don't know how much room you have, but I could definitely see the merits of both and wonder why not have both free tables, and perhaps a reservation table in a back or different room people could pay to rent. I know I'd like the option.

That assumes, of course, you're delivering an actual value, as in stuff "I can't get at mine or a friends house" - good scenery and lighting, not a lot of clutter, certainly no drone hovering, etc.

Would I pay to game at a store? Could be if you can rent a table for a suitable time (say for instance 3 hours) at a decent price. The store could have a mix of regular tables (free, table-top quality terrain) and premium tables (better quality of terrain and accessories, available on rent only), meaning you could book a table ahead of time and be sure to play with a friend/staff member. Gaming time drops significantly when you have a family, and nothing's worse than squeezing in an afternoon's time of gaming after a tough negotiation with the boss wife only to realize that every table is occupied and won't be available on time.
Would I pay to game at a store I play at every week? No if it's an hourly-daily rate, yes if this is akin to a membership fee.

Gaming space also has a larger perceived value if
- your apartment is too small to cater for a decent-sized gaming table without sending your family off for the evening
- you don't have a regular gaming group, and have difficulties finding people to play with.

Bottom line, if the store has a pay-to-game policy, customers have to see added value in the service offered.

mattyboy22 wrote:

Lomar4976 wrote:

Having looked into a vending machine, he says that the rentals are way too pricey for the expected return, no companies were willing to offer any trials and wanted to tie him down to a fixed term (usually 12 month minimum) contract.
If theres anyone knows of any companies that were willing to offer shorter term (3 month or so) contracts based in the UK as a trial then please let me know so I can pass it on, as its something he wanted to try from day 1, just found it impractical on a limited budget.

What my FLGS does is they purchase a small variety of snacks cfrom a distributor and just put them on a typical rack in the store, no vending machine. It seems to do very well. He also rents a cooler that he stocks with drinks.

This. Screw a vending machine. Get a couple fridges and freezers and stock them with ice cream and energy drinks. My FLGS makes most of its side revenue by selling snacks and the like. Gamers get the munchies and wargaming takes alot of energy, cater to the most basic needs. They also have a card where you get 5% return on everything you buy. Kinda like a cash card rewards program.

Granted I'm in the land of wee houses where everyone is overcharged for everything, but I might pay. But what I'd expect in exchange for paying a non-trivial fee might be well beyond what it's worth.

I'd expect the space to be immaculate. I'd expect good terrain, good lighting, and things like dice and whippy sticks availible. I'd expect routine and well-planned events that fit into my schedule and allow me to meet the kinds of players I want to play with, while allowing me to avoid the players I don't.

That probably sounds unreasonable. But it's what I'd expect for paying. Because if I pay, then suddenly it's a service.

And if mikhaila opened his store in my corner of the rising sun, I'd dump your store's pay-for-table faster than you can say "Dakka".

9K rent for a store of approx 2200 sq feet...

In the UK in any decent Shopping Mall you could possbly pay that a week.

I would not pay to game in a store where there are others that will let me pay for free. Also as previously mentioned you don't need a vending machine to sell snacks. Vending machines are for places where no one bothers to monitor them, your buddy will be at the counter correct? Therefore the candy can be up front and he can keep an eye on said candy.

Also, holding some events, like painting tutorials as previously mentioned and similiar things, would gain attention for the store. I don't know your friend's exact situation, but I feel like he needs to be at least a bit more patient or use methods that are less aggressive...for now.

I've not read the whole thread but i'm going to be opening a store in the near future.
I will be charging people to play on the tables. Although not a huge amount.
I will be providing a comfortable environment with good scenery tables and gaming accessories, food, toilets, heating, electric and staffing until 10pm most nights of the week.
Rents, services and rates on large properties are expensive and need to be covered.
I am not a charity!

Alex,

have you created a detailed and realistic business plan?

For many gamers opening a store is a dream.. but the realities are going to be a shock for almost everyone.

Alex Kolodotschko wrote:I've not read the whole thread but i'm going to be opening a store in the near future.
I will be charging people to play on the tables. Although not a huge amount.
I will be providing a comfortable environment with good scenery tables and gaming accessories, food, toilets, heating, electric and staffing until 10pm most nights of the week.
Rents, services and rates on large properties are expensive and need to be covered.
I am not a charity!

The question is, will you gain or lose money by charging for tables? One person deciding not to buy a product at your store, but rather online, cancels out many hours of people paying for tables. Free tables also encourages people to hang out and play games more, making them inclined to buy stuff/food while they are there and gain store loyalty.

Yup, the business plan, building and funding are all in place.
Just crossing Is and dotting the Ts. Then onto the refit, yay!!!
I know that it's going to be hard work but I like a challenge!

Will I gain or lose money by charging? Who knows?
My store is going to start with 15 tables and has space to expand up to 30+ so it does start to add up to be a fair chunk of money.

Are you selling product at a discount?

Alex,

I wish you well but I see alot of wishful thinking in a plan that isnt sure about charging for space.

What do you think the best gaming store in the country turnover is at retail?
I bet you its a lot less than you have estimated.

Hasdrubal wrote: (snip) The store could have a mix of regular tables (free, table-top quality terrain) and premium tables (better quality of terrain and accessories, available on rent only), meaning you could book a table ahead of time and be sure to play with a friend/staff member. (snip)

One of the value-adds I could see would be essentially gaming tutoring - not aimed at newbies (that had better be free because that's the biggest revenue generator you have) but at the hungry upper midlevel player who wants some help polishing their strats and lists.

In the UK people pay for gaming space, at church halls, pub function rooms, the Wargames Holiday Centre and so on.

mikhaila wrote:From the point of veiw of someone who's had game stores for 20 years, and advised quite a few other people opening stores, I would advise to NOT charge for gaming space.

Put in the gaming area, keep it clean, decorate it, make killer scenery, and do what you can to make it a great place to play. And keep it free.

The money you make from sales of games will far, far exceed what you might get from charging for the space. It also puts you in the position to suuport your players, vs. chasing after them for an hourly fee.

I do things like running a free painting class every week, with free paint, basing materials, glue, and tools. Everyone paints, learns how to model, and then buys tons of paints, tools, and more things to paint. Better customer service makes your store better.

JMHO, but Don't charge.

Agreed! I have seen stores that charge to play go out of business many times.

G

IF you do get a vending machine you will have to be aggressive about keeping it on the ground or else people tend to spill or make cheeto foot prints everwhere

my opinion on charging for a gaming table is well.... I'd be forced to most gaming groups have an 18+ age thing or only meet during the week (I'm a student so it's not an option) but losing a game and then haveing to pay to lose it'd be like falling down then someone kicking you in the well...down there

my local FLGS (Wargames Heaven in Brighton) charges one pound for a game, unless yo ugot full membership, then yo udont have to pay. i didnt see that putting people off and nobody is asking you to pay, people just do it themselves. So I guess it all depends on the amount and how it is handled.

I wouldn't be happy if my FLGS charged me to play, but that's mostly down to the fact that I'm the one who makes the board and terrain for them

Green Blow Fly wrote:


Agreed! I have seen stores that charge to play go out of business many times.

G

Correlation does not equal causation.

Most of those stores would have gone out of buisness if they didnt charge. Every store i have personally known of that has gone out of buisness didn't charge to play.

Most stores don't charge. many of them still go under...

This debate has run it's course really, so I shall bow out. Mikhaila's camp is the dominate viewpoint and will likely remain so (why would anyone want to pay for something they expect and have been getting for free) and most store owners will go along with it, the one's that stay open that is...

I would not go to a store that charged me money to play unless it was really the only game in town. I feel like, by going to a store, I am already paying extra for my stuff compared what I could get online, and this extra charge should cover the use of store resources. I am fine with paying money for tournaments or events that require organizers, increased store space, etc. but not for just playing a pick-up game. Besides, having people play helps the store.

I would find alternate ways of handling any "fees" he may want to collect.

A minimalist approach might just be a spare change donation box bolted to each tables corner.

Or he could simply create and host that upstairs as a "club space," collecting a one time fee to use that space as opposed to another gaming area.

Have very basic terrain available, with nicer pieces for a fee.

Either way he shouldn't expect much.

If he is insistent on collecting an hourly fee or a per use fee, he should look at providing as many benefits as possible. For example there are days where I would pay, just to not have to sit or play around the kids. Make it an adult area. Guaranteed reserved times. Comfortable chairs. Provide spare dice and tape measures. A number of snacks and beverages. Some of these things stores do for free and make generally available, but its a luxury and maybe some people will bite. Its just not going to be a money maker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fetterkey wrote:I would not go to a store that charged me money to play unless it was really the only game in town. I feel like, by going to a store, I am already paying extra for my stuff compared what I could get online, and this extra charge should cover the use of store resources. I am fine with paying money for tournaments or events that require organizers, increased store space, etc. but not for just playing a pick-up game. Besides, having people play helps the store.

I largely agree with your sentiment, but just to play devils advocate... from a philosphical stand point is it fair to demand the use of store space for entertainment beyond your purchase? You would never got to an EB, Best Buy, or Walmart buy a video game or movie and expect to be able to enjoy it on those premises. Why then a table top game store? While it helps their sales of certain products there is no way to say how much money they're losing by having the available space as opposed to additional merchandise shelves. Its lost opportunity in favor of potential sales boosting. One might try and make the arguement that their sales margin makes it implicit that they would assist you in using the product... much like heroine addicts who have the shakes... but it isn't implicit to the transaction. This demanded for an implicit right to play in store falls apart when you consider that many players don't buy their miniatrues in store but do so online. Went into the local store this weekend 3 of the 4 tyranids players ordered all their new stuff instead of buying it at the store, despite it being the same price.

Its easy to take a store for granted till its gone. When people start to neglect this unwritten rule of mutual benefit, its no surprise store would want to look else where for supplemental revenue.

If I was going to pay to play the tables had better be a hell of alot better than what I've built in my basement, and I've built a very nice table, with carpet and padding and bar stools all around it. A shop light directly above the table and multiple places to set "dead" or reserve mini's.

I've built all of that for about 40 bucks(thank you resale shops), or 10 hours of gaming at the suggested rates I've seen which is what 1 Apocalypse game?

Don't get me wrong I'm a huge HUGE supporter of my local LGSs I host tournaments 4 times a year in different ones and make sure the prizes are Gift Cards for that particular store...I could give out cash but I want the stores to survive. But if there was one trying to charge for table time, I don't know that I could get behind supporting that kind of thing with a tournament.

wardancer wrote:my local FLGS (Wargames Heaven in Brighton) charges one pound for a game, unless yo ugot full membership, then yo udont have to pay. i didnt see that putting people off and nobody is asking you to pay, people just do it themselves. So I guess it all depends on the amount and how it is handled.

really when did that change? and whats with loads of us being in brighton for some reason?

seriously last time i was in their it was £5 a year (or the year membership) and something more than £1 a play.

CT GAMER wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:Charging just creates a negative attitude in the customers. Sell canned drinks, chocolate bars, crisps (chips to you americans) and you'll turn a good profit on the space.

Don't bother with vending machines - you'll never turn a profit with them unless you have huge footfall, more than a gaming area will ever have. Even workplace vending machines with 40-odd employees barely pay for the rental of the machine. Just get down the cash-and-carry for some crates of coke and boxes of crisps and mars bars.

Most major vendors don't charge you any rental fee for the machine. I made more monthly on Soda sales then any other single product in he store except GW.

And they deliver it to your door.

This may be different in the US. In the UK vending machine suppliers want to keep the profit from the sales to cover the machine. Unless the machine is doing huge amounts you won't make anything from it. The best deal I managed to get was that they would keep the profit from the drinks machine and I would keep the profit from the snack machine. Not great.

Definately best to just sell them out of a fridge at first. If sales are so good that it's creating a problem at the checkout then it might be time to look at vending machines. At least then you'll have sales figures to use as a bargining tool.