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Apologies if this is in the wrong forum (or even if its seen as advertising or something and shouldnt be included at all) but...

A friend has recently opened a FLGS type place, basically specialising in GW miniatures as well as flames of war, and doing computer repairs/parts on the side.

One plan he has for the upstairs portion of the shop is to raise a bit of additional revenue by hiring out the room for an hourly rate to play, using the store bought scenery and such (i.e. there is a cost involved with it even above and beyond the rent/heating/lighting, its not just a space for people to bring their own stuff)

I dont want to go into too many details just incase it is seen as advertising, but a question to those out there - who would pay for the convenience of a set out area away from wife/kids/whatever for a few hours in relative peace? The question has come about as it seems that its seen as a bit of a standard by GW stores to offer free space for playing games, but independant stores don't have the financial backing to be able to afford to lay the room on for free, and people who have been questioned about it can see the logic behind charging, but argue that most people will just go around each others houses and play for free, even if it involves hassle such as moving the dining room table and making sure the dog/kids don't knock the figures flying.

The obvious benefit is of course the community aspect (i.e. you might get 1-2 people in your house with everything else, but you may not want to give every tom, dick and harry your address and have 10 people turn up there)

From the point of veiw of someone who's had game stores for 20 years, and advised quite a few other people opening stores, I would advise to NOT charge for gaming space.

Put in the gaming area, keep it clean, decorate it, make killer scenery, and do what you can to make it a great place to play. And keep it free.

The money you make from sales of games will far, far exceed what you might get from charging for the space. It also puts you in the position to suuport your players, vs. chasing after them for an hourly fee.

I do things like running a free painting class every week, with free paint, basing materials, glue, and tools. Everyone paints, learns how to model, and then buys tons of paints, tools, and more things to paint. Better customer service makes your store better.

JMHO, but Don't charge.

Sounds like he wants to have his cake and eat it.

The whole point of paying full retail at a physical store is the free gaming space. If he's charging for that, then he should sell product at online discounter rates.

mikhaila wrote:From the point of veiw of someone who's had game stores for 20 years, and advised quite a few other people opening stores, I would advise to NOT charge for gaming space.

Put in the gaming area, keep it clean, decorate it, make killer scenery, and do what you can to make it a great place to play. And keep it free.

The money you make from sales of games will far, far exceed what you might get from charging for the space. It also puts you in the position to suuport your players, vs. chasing after them for an hourly fee.

I do things like running a free painting class every week, with free paint, basing materials, glue, and tools. Everyone paints, learns how to model, and then buys tons of paints, tools, and more things to paint. Better customer service makes your store better.

JMHO, but Don't charge.

This. Listen to Mikhaila.

However, at the very most for "charging for gaming space"?

Maybe a kind of 'preferred customer' membership, where they get a discount and priority when scheduling non-tournament games?

I am not shure how it will go. I think most people will not try it because, you can play for free else where. But if the price is reasonable, it could work out. I guess you have to try it and see.

A store opened up that I go to. He sells GW and a few other things, GW mainly, so similiar to you. But he dosn't charge. I think that is why I keep coming back. (well the 20% off dose help ) If he was charging I don't think he would be getting people back. I think that he gives people a free place to play, people will be buying from his store.

If your friend decides to charge people, then the people can have the attitude, why buy from your store when you charge me to play? You are getting my money one way or the other.

Again I wish your friend luck, but I don't think it will work. I find it just greedy and somone trying to take more money out of me. Unless the room he has is huge and would cost him extra money to have it opened for people to play in. Then it could be understandable to be charging then.

Its not a good idea to charge for gaming place. It sort of destroys the bonds / loyalty your potential customer have for the store.

He's already selling at a discounted rate from the manufacturers RRP (GW and whoever does FOW, can never remember)

I'll pass on the views with regards to the rental issue though, and its basically what the customers are saying as well.

He only opened in december, so the customer base is pretty thin on the ground at the moment until word of mouth/advertising kicks in, and hes only looking for ways to make ends meet at the moment. If he could sustain the business purely though sales at the store then no doubt the view is that the room would be given for free, but experience so far has shown that those who wanted to use the room were somewhat reluctant to spend money buying new models as they already had their armies and things, just loathed to travel to the nearest GW shop, and loved the idea that there was somewhere open nearer to home (again, a convenience issue above all else)

Lomar4976 wrote:He's already selling at a discounted rate from the manufacturers RRP (GW and whoever does FOW, can never remember)

I'll pass on the views with regards to the rental issue though, and its basically what the customers are saying as well.

He only opened in december, so the customer base is pretty thin on the ground at the moment until word of mouth/advertising kicks in, and hes only looking for ways to make ends meet at the moment. If he could sustain the business purely though sales at the store then no doubt the view is that the room would be given for free, but experience so far has shown that those who wanted to use the room were somewhat reluctant to spend money buying new models as they already had their armies and things, just loathed to travel to the nearest GW shop, and loved the idea that there was somewhere open nearer to home (again, a convenience issue above all else)

If you don't mind me asking, where is the store situated? I noticed your profile says North East UK, so I'd be interested by how close by it is. Sorry to be off topic, but I figured I'd ask.

How about instead of charging, leave a tip box/jar with a notice saying that the money put in the box will be used to support the gaming area and to get new scenery. That way, people can put money specifically towards their gaming area, without having to be pressured.

Charging for gaming space drives people from your store.

Supporting gaming in your store brings people in.

Anything that brings people into your store will increase sales. Not from every person every day, but there is going to be a direct increase attributable to number of people in the store, over time.

People not in the store, will not buy anything.

If he just started up in December, he should be working to get more in, not driving them away.

I know that the shop in dublin that opened recently enough charges after a certain time. I think this is reasonable. It's not a huge amount.
I like having the shop there to play, and rent in Dublin city centre is obscene, so I don't mind paying a few quid weekly.

I know a few places that charge for storage space at the store( lockers) so you can store you minis there... But charging to play( Ive been to one of those places too, And I made sure i wasnt disturbed while playing with people coming up and asking questions, or having new customers come up an asking for help. ) I told them If i have to pay for a table, for X amount of time , you need to get employees out there to answer questions, and to help there clients..
After about three weeks of the local gamers being like that , the store owner went back too free tables, and every one went back to the normal routine of helping out the store with things like answering questions, that employees didnt know etc...

I would not pay. Simply because, if I am favouring a FLGS with my custom over the local GW, or online retailers, I don't want some guy coming up to me halfway through my 40K game and telling me I need to effectively top up the parking meter. Any method whereby the owner attempted to enforce this would result in me feeling harassed, and playing and buying elsewhere from that point on.

Ketara wrote:I would not pay. Simply because, if I am favouring a FLGS with my custom over the local GW, or online retailers, I don't want some guy coming up to me halfway through my 40K game and telling me I need to effectively top up the parking meter. Any method whereby the owner attempted to enforce this would result in me feeling harassed, and playing and buying elsewhere from that point on.

QFT. The store owner/employees are now in an adversarial role towards their customers, trying to collect money from them for something most of them consider should be free.

Let the increased revenue from people coming into the store help. When I was gaming every week at my FLGS, I'd often pick up a blister, small box, or at least a pot of paint. I know things are just starting, but give it time.

You could charge an annual membership fee for an organized gaming group though. You could also have tournaments where you have to pay a small fee to get in. Something as simple as 10 quid a person with the prize being any battleforce/battalion box they want. Members get in for 5 dollars and have a dedicated "game night" once per week where they all meet.

If there's some kind of cooler or some snacks the storekeeper could sell drinks and chips to people gaming. I wouldn't mind dropping a buck for a can of soda or bottle of water while gaming.

Just work on lots of little things and hope for the best.

If a store charged me to play on their tables then no god-damned way would I buy models there. I'll bite the bullet and pay full retail for models at the store since I feel guilty walking in there, using up a table for hours, and then walking out empty-handed...but if I have to pay for the table then I consider it a done deal and wouldn't feel any guilt at all for buying all my gak online at a reasonable price.*

Really bad idea in my opinion.

How about instead of charging, leave a tip box/jar with a notice saying that the money put in the box will be used to support the gaming area and to get new scenery. That way, people can put money specifically towards their gaming area, without having to be pressured.

That sounds like a great idea, actually. If my store had a donation jar I would definitely drop cash in there regularly. Anything to get some better terrain on those tables...or better tables.



*Of course I still buy things online anyway...sometimes the discounts are just too good to pass up, and it's annoying walking into the store and finding that they never really restock or have what I want.

If I'm going to pay for my gaming space, it'll be my garage, basement, or game room - not somebody else's place.

Hi all.
I agree that charging for gaming space is a bit counter productive.
However , IF there is a regular gaming group using the space, and THEY want to form a club , where a small nominal fee is spent on improving -buying stuff for the club that is far more acceptable and appreciated.(Eg £1 per week for example.)

The increase in foot fall in store should be reward enough for the shop owner.

How about you fit a vending machine in there? Then the room is free, and they don't have to go far to get a drink/snack.

Neith wrote:
If you don't mind me asking, where is the store situated? I noticed your profile says North East UK, so I'd be interested by how close by it is. Sorry to be off topic, but I figured I'd ask.

Its in Gateshead, Low Fell to be exact. Its on Beaconsfield Road just up from the 'Ye Old Cannon' pub (called the Gamers Outpost)

Might be a bit of a trek from Middlesborough though.

Howard A Treesong wrote:How about you fit a vending machine in there? Then the room is free, and they don't have to go far to get a drink/snack.

Having looked into a vending machine, he says that the rentals are way too pricey for the expected return, no companies were willing to offer any trials and wanted to tie him down to a fixed term (usually 12 month minimum) contract.
If theres anyone knows of any companies that were willing to offer shorter term (3 month or so) contracts based in the UK as a trial then please let me know so I can pass it on, as its something he wanted to try from day 1, just found it impractical on a limited budget.

Not sure about the tip jar idea though. That may work well in america, where theres a 'tipping culture' but its definately not something that usually works over here. Its an idea of course.

Anyway thanks for your views all, its pretty much to be expected. Back in the day when we used to run a gaming club at the local community centre together, we used to charge £3 per member for 2 and a half hours to cover the rental of the room, to be honest we had a view that a similar sort of price would be able to be done here, to cover the rental of the room and expenses etc associated with it. It was really successful for 3 years or so, until the members started to drift apart due to natural growing up/moving on etc, we never really had new blood coming through the door. Thats partially the worry at the moment, the fact that it takes a good 10 or so year gap for the 'new generation' of gamers to get into it - thats somewhat why the store opened now - the sons and daughters of the old members are now trying to find out what their parents do with all those figures they spend hours with their friends with, so the store was the next natural progression.

Of course, charging for a room when the only income is the rents is one thing, charging for a room when theres a retail outlet downstairs is something else, and I can see everyone elses point in the thread. Its something to let him ponder over.

We have a fine local gamestore that rents conference rooms in the shopping center for us to game every Monday night. It's free, but they did try asking for a couple of dollars for terrain rental for awhile, there was huge wear and tear on the many sets they supplied for our use every week. Eventually they stopped asking, but while they were, no one here minded at all.

We've seen a few local gamestores go out of business because of the bad economy. So we are very protective about our remaining stores. We don't mind springing a bit to keep things going. Actually we don't have a GW store here, and this store is one of the only places large numbers of us can gather to game and socialize and hang out once a week. If your friends store is someplace where people have a lot of other options for places to go, they may not want to pay. Especially because he hasn't had a chance to build up a rapport with the local gamers yet. But in my opinion, a good place to hang out is worth a dollar or two an hour. I spend that much on sodas while I game, ha ha Just my opinion

Most gamers feel a game room is a right and not a privaledge. Unavoidable fact as evidenced already in this thread.

This mentality is a symptom of the tragically flawed LGS model that everyone clings to despite the fact that 9 out of 10 stores fail largely due to clinging to this very model.

1. I think a nominal fee of $1-4 for the day is reasonable and if a store had quality tables and terrain and kept the space clean and odor free I would pay it without question.

Fact is that when people pay for something (even a negligable fee like a dollar) they take more pride and ownership over it's upkeep. Free gaming spaces are usually utter s**tholes for a reason:

No one has respect for terrain or the space and assumes they deserve it by birthright, trash left, etc. ,etc.)... Also people just looking to hang around and be annoying/steal stuff/leech off the store and it's patrons will be less likely to do so. If people pay even a small fee they will get on others that make messes, etc. far more often then if they aren't paying a fee..

I have seen a number of great stores go under that in hindsight i should/would have payed a fee to game there given how much time I spent there and how much terrrain, tables and so forth they provided. Most gamers however will balk at this "offense" to their sensibilities right up until their store closes to be replaced by another new store on the same track to failure as the previous one...



2. Another idea is to divide the space up into two areas:

* Make one area free to all and offer decent tables/terrain. Nothing fancy, but adequate by LGS standards

* Make a second area restircted to either members of a club that pay a certain monthly fee or who reserve the tables for x amount per game. Put the really nice tables and terrain in here ( maybe invest in some FW or other custom terrain, themed tables, real eye-catching stuff, etc., etc.)and offer some other percs (house templates and dice, small fridge, etc.)

If he's going to charge, then maybe it should be for events with prize support, with the overage
going to nice terrain and such if he wants to keep account of these things.

Rather than charge for gaming space, I've seen a couple of stores do the following.

Rather than offer a discount on everything, they sell a yearly membership in a club, for some nominal fee ($20/year, I think). They then offer a 10% discount on anything bought in the store for club members.

I think this has a few effects:

1) Most gamers will think they can make the $20 back with a few purchases. They're probably right. But, once they have that membership, they're vested in the store - they're more likely to buy stuff in your store than any other store because they've put an investment into getting their discount.

2) You make more money off random purchases, because you're not offering a flat-rate discount on everything. This includes things like grandma coming in to buy Timmy a box of marines for his birthday. Grandma's going to pay full price, but she'll go to your store because that's where Timmy plays.

As for getting people in the door, run a monthly tournament for every game system you support. First Sturday, 40k, second saturday, warmachine, third, WFB, etc.

Also, if you have the space, make sure you support different types of games. Friday night can be 'Friday night Magic' night. The best game store I've been to had a lot of small two-person tables up front for card gamers, as well as large wargaming tables in back, and a couple of octagonal poker-style tables as well, for board gamers and RPG groups.

They stocked a ton of boardgames, and just about every game they stocked, they had an open copy of that people could try out for free. It's a lot easier to drop $50 on a board game if you've had a chance to examine the box contents and maybe play through a turn or two.

My LGS charges for gaming space and many people that play there purchase only the table space. They use maelstrom for everything else.

In my area, game stores have tried both. These days, all shops are free-to-play.

A number of problems arise once you start charging people for gaming space. In no particular order, I have seen:

* Gamers get resentful if other gamers are slow about setting up or packing away.

* Players become unhelpful to the newbies & curious onlookers, who are interrupting the paid-for time.

* Players stop taking care of the store terrain, assuming that any damage they cause is 'paid for'.

* Management shows favoritism towards friends and/or discriminates against 'undesirables' with regard to scheduling, timekeeping, etc.

* Parents start using the store as a cheap babysitting service.

All in all, it seems that charging for playing space creates more headaches than it solves.

dont do it.

my lgs charges a 'membership fee' which basically says we have to pay to play non-gw games (its the only store in brighton that sells non-gw stuff) which has put me off of the games it sells.

Yes, I would.
The downside is payment.
However, if its guaranteed that you have a playground
then its worth it.

Would I pay? Probably. Would I be such a FLGS nazi looking after the store's best interest? No. It becomes way to mercenary. The store benefits from me bringing painted minis to the store and being nice to potential customers, I would ignore people if I were paying to play there. My time, my money.

My FLGS lets me play for free, provides nice terrain (which is done by the community and a few store provided ones when new pieces are released by GW) and supports the hobby in a non-money grubbing way.

I feel almost obligated in a moral way to buy something each time I'm there. Most of the other players feel the same way. The FLGS takes care of us, so we will take care of them.

fellblade wrote:

* Gamers get resentful if other gamers are slow about setting up or packing away.

* Players become unhelpful to the newbies & curious onlookers, who are interrupting.

* Players stop taking care of the store terrain, assuming that any damage they cause is 'paid for'.

* Management shows favoritism towards friends and/or discriminates against 'undesirables'

* Parents start using the store as a free babysitting service.

All of these things have happened and happen regularly in stores that are free to play in as well, and I have seen a fair number of stores in my 28 years of wargaming, inclusing the one I owned and ran...