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So the basic thing is you're arguing this will results in one time sales and not regular customers?

Yeah, how do regular customers dare to build a coherent army list and then only add a few miniatures. They should buy boxes at random and then collect them all!.

New idea for GW, how about selling boxes with random miniatures inside

M.

Exactly, mal.

GW has never fully understood (at least not for a long time) that it doesn't market its own product.

Wargames in general have always relied on existing players to interest new players. The fact is that this is a niche hobby (and to be fair not a very glamorous one).

In order for a company to interest people in their product they either need to be selling something that people know they need/want (such as food, housing and other essentials or common luxuries such as cars, TV's etc). If they go down this route their marketing strategy will always be 'our product is the best because its cheaper/better/lasts longer'.

For less obvious purchases (i.e. niche hobbies) people need to find out that the product exists in the first place. Look at how often people assume that GW sells computer games. When I worked for GW I lost track of the number of people who insisted that we had Wii's in stock!! It would never occur to most people that wargames even exist.

GW's high street presence has mitigated that somewhat but is just dismissed by most as 'where those nerdy kids go'.

It therefore relies on its existing customer base to spread the word. The vast majority of gamers get into the hobby because they know of someone who also plays (Billy sees Johnny's cool toy soldiers and says 'what are they?').

Hence makes commercial sense for GW to try and retain as many customers as possible. Each customer will spend money in varying amounts past their initial outlay, but their true value lies in the number of new gamers they introduce. By working to retain customers, you not only retain those you have now, but also the people that they have introduced and so on.

The net result is a general increase in turnover. Why GW seem determined to derail this is frankly baffling - but there's nothing new there...

New idea for GW, how about selling boxes with random miniatures inside

They actually do this in a strange kind of way. If a shop orders blisters that are out of stock they only can order the general kind of blister. If a customer needs a certain blister (e.g. Tau Heavenly One with staff ) he needs to order from Mail Order since the store can't order a specific miniature.

Miguelsan wrote:Yeah, how do regular customers dare to build a coherent army list and then only add a few miniatures. They should buy boxes at random and then collect them all!.

New idea for GW, how about selling boxes with random miniatures inside

M.

They did, they were called grab bags and very cool they were too if you were into converting or just wanted something new to paint.

My, my it was a tongue in cheek suggestion saying, imagine if entering a GW shop all you could buy is a CCG style box with a space marine outside but you don´t if you are getting a tac squad or a gaunt brood... hilarity would wide spread the night before a GT.

But even the GWs marketing bosses wouldn´t be so stupid... I think

M.

Not sure but wouldn't this result in an empty store? If the store is empty how the kids going to get this as a game? It will just look like any other dead store with desperate salepeople. Am I missing something?

Perhaps this is the death knell people have been predicting? I mean if GW are going to stop painting & gaming, and just sell product then they are going to be no better than your local FLG. GW always harped on about how their stores encompassed the whole hobby, will be interesting if this is the case.

As to the whole "not heard anything" statements, is that really proof they aren't going to follow this path? We all know how sneaky beaky GW can be.

Wolfstan wrote:I mean if GW are going to stop painting & gaming, and just sell product then they are going to be no better than your local FLG.

It sounds like "less playground and sandbox" and more "guided workshops and scenarios." I
don't see it as stopping painting and gaming.

Wolfstan wrote:Perhaps this is the death knell people have been predicting? I mean if GW are going to stop painting & gaming, and just sell product then they are going to be no better than your local FLG. GW always harped on about how their stores encompassed the whole hobby, will be interesting if this is the case.

As to the whole "not heard anything" statements, is that really proof they aren't going to follow this path? We all know how sneaky beaky GW can be.

Actually they would be substantially worse than the local FLGS. The local FLGS actually lets me game at the place I buy product. Not to mention that whole "not bound to GW only games and ridiculously ramped ancillary prices" thing.

I honestly don't know what they are expecting from "walk in sales"/"first timers", as has been said: hefty price tags encourage new people to "buy shoes". I mean, I have a good amount of friends who would love 40K. But if I don't explain the game and show them examples they would never just walk in and pick up a battle force. So if I can get one person to at least get AoBR, that's a slight victory for the hobby in general. But if someone walks into an empty store with zero knowledge of the product, hoping to find video games and has no example of said product... well... you know. At least people playing and painting gets it out there for all to see.

But I can also see the other side of the argument. A more "traditional" retail store may appeal to some people. I'm going to be honest and admit I've only been to a GW store once. I buy all my stuff from the store one block from my house which I get a 10% discount at BUT that's beside the point... I remember going into that GW store and feeling totally alienated, yes a redshirt described 40k (simply) to my friend and I, but it seemed to us like the hardcore vets were just that, way too hardcore. To be honest it kind of intimidated us. Also when the general attitude of watching a game gets you the evil eye from some people it makes for a... well I almost want to say hostile environment to new players. Like I said, I've only been once but first impressions are pretty important.

All in all I am curious to see what they do... but I will still game, buy, paint, etc. at my local store...

This could be what the independant stores have been waiting for. GW to screw up big style

I haven't seen any evidence of this stuff, at least so far....

Our local GW store is the main place to play, because our local FLGS has god-awful tables and the GW store has amazing, painted, scenery-filled ones. That being the case, there are about 10-12 of us that are in there ALL the time, like 3-4 times a week at least. But its always just the same people. I mean, new people come in, etc, but the core group of players is the same, and we're all friendly with the staff and they know us and hang out with us after work, etc. But it IS an official GW store. It seems like if they said 'no more gaming in store!' they'd lose the only customers they really have, or at least like 60-70% of them, which is us main guys who are always there (and often buying stuff, even if its just a few paints or whatever).

Plus they're still pretty aggressive with setting up campaigns.. right now at the store there's a Fantasy and 40K campaign both going with plans for several more starting up in the first quarter of the year. So if these rumors about no more gaming in the store are true, they certainly arent planning on implementing them any time soon.

The thing about focusing on getting new players into the game is definitely something I could see though, the manager there does always break off whatever hes doing to go talk to new customers if they wander in (as he should, no problems with that on my end)

Exaar wrote:I haven't seen any evidence of this stuff, at least so far....

Our local GW store is the main place to play, because our local FLGS has god-awful tables and the GW store has amazing, painted, scenery-filled ones. That being the case, there are about 10-12 of us that are in there ALL the time, like 3-4 times a week at least. But its always just the same people. I mean, new people come in, etc, but the core group of players is the same, and we're all friendly with the staff and they know us and hang out with us after work, etc. But it IS an official GW store. It seems like if they said 'no more gaming in store!' they'd lose the only customers they really have, or at least like 60-70% of them, which is us main guys who are always there (and often buying stuff, even if its just a few paints or whatever).

Plus they're still pretty aggressive with setting up campaigns.. right now at the store there's a Fantasy and 40K campaign both going with plans for several more starting up in the first quarter of the year. So if these rumors about no more gaming in the store are true, they certainly arent planning on implementing them any time soon.

The thing about focusing on getting new players into the game is definitely something I could see though, the manager there does always break off whatever hes doing to go talk to new customers if they wander in (as he should, no problems with that on my end)

Yes but how much are you spending?

Probably about 100-200 dollars a month, give or take.

But the point of my post wasn't that they would or wouldn't make more money, its just that as someone who spends a LOT of time in a GW store I havent heard anything/seen any evidence of these new policies.

So 25 to 50 dollars a week.
About as much as someone new to the hobby.
If these new ideas are in effect, you'd most likely not be affected.
You would be there prefered type of customer

taebeck wrote:I am a little surprised that so many of the people on this thread don't believe GW is moving to this method of operation. They have actually done this before. I have been playing GW games since 1988 so I have seen just about every move GW has made in the states. Back when the retail stores first started hitting the "Mills" malls, GW was trying to put every FLGS out of the GW business. They made it extremely difficult for independent retailers to carry their product. The GW stores had only a few poorly run gaming events and you could only play in them if your models were purchased from the store and were fully painted (Three Colors). They came right out and said that existing gamers could go themselves. They only wanted new players and wanted everyone to buy from the mall stores or the GW online store.

!

I must have been on a different planet during those years. I started selling GW in 1988. Can you explain how you saw everything that GW was doing, as a player, that someone dealing with them directly as a store might somehow miss? I've got a GW store in a Mills mall very near to me. Strangely, rather than try to put me out of the GW business as you say they were trying, they worked quite hard to support my shops. And in fact, they made it easier over the years to carry their products. When they went direct to stores in the 90's my sales on their product doubled.

So forgive me if I continue to call BS on the broad sweeping statements people make about "GW trying to put independents out of business".

I average probably $25 a week on stuff. However, if I had no game store to play in, it's probably instantly drop to $0.

GW policies can and will vary depending from country to country. They had no problem steamrollering nearly all LGS in Australia while at the same time being quite supportive towards US-stores.

mikhaila wrote:

taebeck wrote:I am a little surprised that so many of the people on this thread don't believe GW is moving to this method of operation. They have actually done this before. I have been playing GW games since 1988 so I have seen just about every move GW has made in the states. Back when the retail stores first started hitting the "Mills" malls, GW was trying to put every FLGS out of the GW business. They made it extremely difficult for independent retailers to carry their product. The GW stores had only a few poorly run gaming events and you could only play in them if your models were purchased from the store and were fully painted (Three Colors). They came right out and said that existing gamers could go themselves. They only wanted new players and wanted everyone to buy from the mall stores or the GW online store.

!

I must have been on a different planet during those years. I started selling GW in 1988. Can you explain how you saw everything that GW was doing, as a player, that someone dealing with them directly as a store might somehow miss? I've got a GW store in a Mills mall very near to me. Strangely, rather than try to put me out of the GW business as you say they were trying, they worked quite hard to support my shops. And in fact, they made it easier over the years to carry their products. When they went direct to stores in the 90's my sales on their product doubled.

So forgive me if I continue to call BS on the broad sweeping statements people make about "GW trying to put independents out of business".

You can call BS all you want. If your particular rep loved to snoodle with you ... hey great.

The simple fact is that they were requiring a huge layout in cash and a significant amount of dedicated square footage just to carry their crap. They didn't support the LGS whenever there was an issue with orders or product. The reps would tell LGS that they didn't have enough product to fill an order on a hot item or that it was back ordered, but there would be plenty of stock at the GW store. The GW reps would find any reason they could to cut the Independent retailers discount. GW wanted to be the only game in town selling GW. Any FLGS that sold GW in Texas during the period in question can confirm this.

Next time try reading comprehension. I said GW wanted to put independents out of the GW business.

PS: Just because I didn't specifically say that I have worked with GW in a professional capacity, you really shouldn't assume that I haven't.

My local manager pretty much pooh pooh'd this idea as being so far out of bounds that it would be suicide for GW US.

sworth9411 wrote:So Before this turns into a flame thread, I would love to keep an open mind and discussion about this possible new plan, I know for a 20 year hobbiyist Im pretty pissed off about what I heard, but then again, I can see the point.

No more hobbyist gaming in the store (other than national events etc.)
No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon)
No more hobbying in the store
Staff should focus more on brand new clients only
Hobbiyist dont spend money, New clients spend the most amount of money on the hobby so lets focus on new clients

All I can say is this has absolutely no impact for me. I'm quite happy to be left the hell alone when I come into a GW store. I don't like playing games or painting ect. in the GW store. Most times I go to the IR anyway. The main stores are more for newbies to get aquainted. I do beleive the "Hobbyists don't spend money" line is a farce. With the way and speed at which they change rules(IE making units that were uber last edition into complete trash ect) even veteran hobbyists are buying just as much as newbs to stay competitive. Not to mention all the new units that every single army seems to be getting that are just too good not to have. That's their problem however as I will be spending my money at the IRs anyway, sure it goes to GW but if they think they can make more money from newbs in the main store this should have no impact for them.

I will mention though that once a gamer is indoctrinated fully and understands the ins and outs, it's much more difficult(if not impossible) to up-sale them, since they know a line of BS(and no that does not mean ballistics skill) when they see it.

taebeck wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

taebeck wrote:I am a little surprised that so many of the people on this thread don't believe GW is moving to this method of operation. They have actually done this before. I have been playing GW games since 1988 so I have seen just about every move GW has made in the states. Back when the retail stores first started hitting the "Mills" malls, GW was trying to put every FLGS out of the GW business. They made it extremely difficult for independent retailers to carry their product. The GW stores had only a few poorly run gaming events and you could only play in them if your models were purchased from the store and were fully painted (Three Colors). They came right out and said that existing gamers could go themselves. They only wanted new players and wanted everyone to buy from the mall stores or the GW online store.

!

I must have been on a different planet during those years. I started selling GW in 1988. Can you explain how you saw everything that GW was doing, as a player, that someone dealing with them directly as a store might somehow miss? I've got a GW store in a Mills mall very near to me. Strangely, rather than try to put me out of the GW business as you say they were trying, they worked quite hard to support my shops. And in fact, they made it easier over the years to carry their products. When they went direct to stores in the 90's my sales on their product doubled.

So forgive me if I continue to call BS on the broad sweeping statements people make about "GW trying to put independents out of business".

You can call BS all you want. If your particular rep loved to snoodle with you ... hey great.

The simple fact is that they were requiring a huge layout in cash and a significant amount of dedicated square footage just to carry their crap. They didn't support the LGS whenever there was an issue with orders or product. The reps would tell LGS that they didn't have enough product to fill an order on a hot item or that it was back ordered, but there would be plenty of stock at the GW store. The GW reps would find any reason they could to cut the Independent retailers discount. GW wanted to be the only game in town selling GW. Any FLGS that sold GW in Texas during the period in question can confirm this.

Next time try reading comprehension. I said GW wanted to put independents out of the GW business.

PS: Just because I didn't specifically say that I have worked with GW in a professional capacity, you really shouldn't assume that I haven't.

I assumed you hadn't worked for them based on your ignorance of how GW worked at the time.

As to your claim to have worked for GW, you obviously didn't pay much attention, or understand how their warehouseing worked. How stock got allocated to the different channels, and that something could easily be on the shelves at a GW store, but not available to order from Trade Sales. They didn't pull stuff from a store to ship to a trade account.

GW reps can't cut discounts, it's the same discount for every store in the US, regardless of how much you order. 15 or so years ago when they first went direct, GW's discount was 50% to all stores, then went to 45% with a 5% 'pay on time' incentive, and then a few years later went to 45% across the board for all accounts. It's always been the same for everyone, (Assuming you payed your bills on time.)

As to the layout in cash, it's called being in business. You can't sell what you don't have in a store. What looks like a large amount of cash and space in the game industry is nothing compared to getting an account with many manufacturers in other parts of the hobby industry, let alone out in the real world.

I always love the stories about "GW reps trying to screw my FLGS so the GW store makes money". Again, if you worked for GW in any capacity beyond redshirt, you'd know that in those years Trade Sales Reps had quotas to fill, usually as a team, but often as individuals. If the local GW store did good it meant nothing to them. Only how much they sold to Trade Accounts, (LGS's) would help them meet their quotas and keep their job. Explain to me how a sales rep benefits in any ways from screwing his accounts, who's orders help him keep his job?

Usually the problems occurred with reps trying to sell too much to a store, not holding back, or refusing to sell them 'hot' product.

It's alway so amusing hearing the still bitter ill remembered and not accurate in the first place grudges from yesteryear.

im wondering? could this lead to less frequancy of model releases of non-spehss mareinzz armys. i mean if your looking for new players whats the point of releasing models so frequant that dont keep hobbyist coming back for more? am i explaining this right?

There may be some smaller mall stores in the US making such changes due to their extreme size limitations like some of the stores in other countries like the UK, Japan or Australia, I don't know, but the premise of this thread is certainly not happening in the bulk of their US stores which are in strip malls. I came right out and asked about this today at my local GW store and the answer was no, there are no plans to suddenly kick out the existing hobby community they've worked so hard to build. Small as the store is, there'd be a terrible lot of wasted space in there if they did that and a lot fewer sales.

Next time try reading comprehension. I said GW wanted to put independents out of the GW business.

PS: Just because I didn't specifically say that I have worked with GW in a professional capacity, you really shouldn't assume that I haven't.

well lets look at the bright side if this does happen. if gw does start prefering new clients maybe thay will bring down the price inorder to not scare the bedwetters away from the "hobby".
did what i just say sound as stupid to you as it did to me?
but then again they could end up scring all the 40k to warmachine. then that could lead to no one there to teach the bed wetters and the thay turn away so then they decide to start catering to there loyalist hobbyists.
that sounded stupid too huh?

taebeck wrote:
As to your comment regarding what constitutes a large layout of cash to be in business, you are absolutely right. Compared to say the reprographics industry, where a single lease on a high volume machine is a million dollars depreciated over several years, the start up is minor. However, when I order a machine from Xerox, I pick which machine I want based on my customer traffic, geographic and socioeconomic surroundings and the price/ quality/ speed business model I choose to pursue. With GW, the initial stock was completely of their choosing. The gave the retailer no input into what merchandise they would receive and they never sent a selection of items that would move fast. Most LGS have to sell what they have in order to generate the cash needed to order what the customers really want. If that is not setting a retailer up for failure, what is?

Discounts = Tier System

That little fanboy inside you must just goo in it's pants every time GW looks your way.

That is an incrdible amount of bollocks written in one paragraph.

I think I will trust mikhaila with many many years experience running stores and the fact he is talking business in the real world and not the bitter twisted bile you seem to come up with. Not only that, but it mirrors my own knowledge as to how this works.

if gw cares so much about profit why dont they start selling cigarettes.

garret wrote:if gw cares so much about profit why dont they start selling cigarettes.

coz it stunts growth and they want the little 10 year olds to reach the expensive vehicles on the top shelf.