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I think removing the gaming tables would be a disaster. Everyone interested in getting into 40k eventually asks themselves, "will I ever get to play?" When you walk into a GW and see people playing, that question disappears and your like. Sweet. Problem solved. The painting tables aren't as essential. We can paint at home with some newspaper. Most people I see painting in the store are just doing it while talking to others. The loss of the painting table is no major damage, but losing the gaming tables is another story.

I'd be concerned what trends might start in third party gaming clubs if GW removed their tables. There are two Game Palors in the DC metro area. One charges you to play, which is bull and why I never go there. The other doesn't and when wondering why, I realize, because there's a Games Workshop in the mall five minutes down the road with gaming tables. I'd rather take my business to a place that has both tables and retail sales. I'm not going to shop around 50 different locations that all charge me the same amount for the product. I'm gonna find one I like that's well located and go there and stay there. I think a lot of people who buy things think this way. No one is gonna go to five different game stops to buy their games when they all charge the same prices. They're gonna find the closest one or one they like and keep going there.

Now, if GW stops offering pick up games without charge, what will these other places do? I think they'll start charging, especially if one of the reasons they don't charge is because there is a games workshop a mile down the road. Most of these stores already don't do pick up games. They support multiple games and tend to just have a Warhammer night or something. What if I can't go to warhammer night? I might have a job or work etc. And reserving tables? Last I checked a drop in supply most often increases demand. Again, I can see stores charging me money just to play with my expensive $800 army. I'm not paying to play this game after I've already invested in the purchase of the pieces. Then comes the problem when will I ever play? I'd probably stop buying models, and stop playing, and I think many other people would too.

I'm in US GW stores all the time these days, mostly between the US Maryland Battle Bunker and surrounding area stores and none of the staff have said anything like this to me, in fact they're always inviting us back in their usual friendly manner. I've seen no indication of being pushed out of US GW shops, at least not at this point. Certainly nothing like this was mentioned at the Battle Bunker last evening and I heard nothing on the weekend in the other GW store I was in then.

I hobbied at home and played most of my games at home for the first 15 years I was in this hobby and GW survived, but it seems to me that the hobby and GW's business has grown a lot more in the US during the past 5 years since their stores have become more inviting. During that time I've taken to spending a lot of hobby time in the stores myself instead of at home. I could go back to doing the hobby at home myself, but I wonder what would happen to the community and GW business growth in the US if all the people currently hanging out in stores suddenly were pushed out.

Jervis Johnson said to me himself in 2008 that they recognized that what worked well in one country (e.g., the UK) didn't always work well in another (e.g., the US), such as the "only painted models can be used for gaming in the stores" policy years ago. It worked great in the UK as a way to get people to compete for the highly limited gaming tables in UK shops, but the policy stifled hobby business growth in the US and when they realized that the policy was abolished. As D.T. points out above, Australia had its own set of rules and those worked great there.

Again though, the US is different. The density in any given housing area of people who play these types of games is often low here and one hears a lot about people dropping out of the hobby because they have no one close by to play with. The stores currently provide a central place for people to find others also into this hobby, even if they don't know anyone else who plays before walking into the shop. Without that mechanism the US hobby growth could certainly be jeopardized. When gamers can't find opponents for a certain game, then no matter how much they love it they'll often change to another game or hobby for which they can find opponents. Given all the other competing interests in the US, especially for younger customers, it's all too easy for customers to defect to some other pastime if they are having trouble finding fellow Warhammer players. You have to "get 'em while you got 'em" when it comes to customers. In other words, don't do anything that drives your customers to try other things they might get used to or even like better, keep them close to your business while they are already there so they don't go spend their money elsewhere.

What did the manager who said this look like?
Did you happen to catch his name?

You said many stores and not all stores, did you mean many stores or all stores in the region?

I could understand why people would flip out on no gaming in the store . But its the best for the store. Its good that its going to be a full functioning retail store, why?
Because believe it or not when people that come to the malls to hang with their boys or girlfriends and they see a bunch of kids that have no where else to go except stay there and play board games? Believe it or not it does turn people away. As for me I could care less because like, I hope most of people here on this thread do it for a game of thinking and just do while life is full of stress. Now for me there is a libary near where I live at about the distance of the mall. And thats the best place to play a game at a libary and I could explain all the reason why but I beat half of people here could. Manager of the stores should find libarys around them and try and set up a commiuntys so not all IS LOST!!!!! lol you guys

Dunno if I buy this. I'm a hobbyist (I game only very, very rarely) and spend ridiculous amounts on this hobby in their stores.

I think what's being said is misrepresented.

From what I understand, GW wants to "funnel" veterans to the battle bunkers, which are made to handle lots of people and hobbyists.

Also, there is a huge emphasis these days on stores being profitable. That means bringing in new blood. Ironically enough, that's kinda what MOST veterans want. Veterans were always telling me how they hated red shirts trying to get them to buy something. Especially if it was the wrong thing for them.

Ironically, what you said makes sense. GW knows that veterans go online and what not for discounts for their stuff, generally. The staff knows which vets buy from their store and which vets don't. Concentrating on promoting the game to new people seems to make sense. As was said, it's not the only thing done, but it's the major emphasis.

I am a little surprised that so many of the people on this thread don't believe GW is moving to this method of operation. They have actually done this before. I have been playing GW games since 1988 so I have seen just about every move GW has made in the states. Back when the retail stores first started hitting the "Mills" malls, GW was trying to put every FLGS out of the GW business. They made it extremely difficult for independent retailers to carry their product. The GW stores had only a few poorly run gaming events and you could only play in them if your models were purchased from the store and were fully painted (Three Colors). They came right out and said that existing gamers could go themselves. They only wanted new players and wanted everyone to buy from the mall stores or the GW online store.

Seems to me that this is just GW coming full circle.

Thank God for Privateer Press!

Ultimately, the best way for GW to make more profit is to increase sales. This is difficult and involves GW changing the way they approach both their customers and their internal policies but is by no means impossible.

However, GW management being who they are (i.e. unable to find their ar5e with both hands and a map) they will adopt the 'classic' business model and try to cut costs instead while simultaneously raising prices on existing products.

Reducing the size of stores to reduce rent and wage costs is an obvious move as it directly affects the bottom line. Explaining to the shareholders (who as an investment company have no knowledge of or interest in the company they have invested in as long is it makes money) that you need to speculate to accumulate will not wash, particularly in the current risk-averse business climate.

At some point they will (hopefully) realise they are not an insurance call centre, cotton mill, etc (insert your 'sweat-shop of choice' here) and that this model does not work for niche products like theirs in the long term. If they don't then the outlook cannot be good...

Chimera_Calvin wrote:At some point they will (hopefully) realise they are not an insurance call centre, cotton mill, etc (insert your 'sweat-shop of choice' here) and that this model does not work for niche products like theirs in the long term. If they don't then the outlook cannot be good...

That presumes that GW demand really is strongly price-sensitive, as opposed to only marginally price-sensitive.

scuddman wrote:I think what's being said is misrepresented.

From what I understand, GW wants to "funnel" veterans to the battle bunkers, which are made to handle lots of people and hobbyists.

If that's the case, I think we can safely assume fringe markets such as Finland will continue operations as before. GW Helsinki is the size of a small barbershop and the nearest larger GW store to my house is probably in Germany or Moscow.

I'm wondering if this is 'store' direction rather then 'gw' direction? GW have been supporting the hobbiest more in the last few years then ever, but for smaller stores they must maximise space/income, and people walking in and buying generates more then someone sat there all day painting.

I'm spoilt however as I use warhammer world, so I always have sonewhere to sculpt, paint and game when its too cold to use the 19 ft log cabin in the back garden :-)

Sadly it is true.

Over here in Germany we have already experienced it in various shops and more and more GW-shops jandle it that way.

The shop in my town is roughly the size of an average american high school class-room. In the past they expanded their table to 4x12 feet but now they are going to cut it down to 1/2. Besides this they only have the tripartiate introduction table.

Mor important is the fact that Veterans are asked to leave the shop if they show up more than three times without buying anything and are welcome back "if they buy something".

Go figure.


BTW, conditions for LGS have became bad once again over here.

skullking wrote:Does Hobbyists refer to a certain type of player, as in, someone over the age of 20, something like that? If so, they could be trying to keep a particular type of person out, to try and draw in newer players of a different sort. For instance, if you were a 30 year old man, and you walked into a GW where there were a bunch of 8 - 12 year olds playing, you'd probably be less inclined to want to hang out there, as you would if it was people your age or perhaps slightly younger.

This is quite true, I'm 26 and don't often go to the games workshop shop but I was in there recentley when it snowed and I couldn't get to work, three of four groups of kids came in one after the other with parents in tow and besides the mums and the manager (who I'd been having a nice chat with when it was empty previously) I was the only person over fifteen in there.

So yeah, it just started feeling worng for me to be hanging around in there once the manager wasn't free any more so I made my pleasentries, took my grots and left.

About a year ago a independent store over here who is selling GW stuff ( we dont have GW here but some independent stores do have a close relathionship with GW) complained to GW their stuff was not selling... after a visit of a GW rep to the store the conclusion was - " you have to drop the vets playing on the store"... So that was about a year ago and I got this first hand from store owner.

When I walk in a GW store everyones younger than me

But I have my secret weapon.

I take my daughter with me.
There so busy trying to chat her up I could rob the place blind, And they wouldn't notice

This does seem odd if it is as reported.

..that said...

I have heard talk -- and remember this is UK only AFAIK..but Mr. Kirby has just said he's going to be spending more time in the USA now... -- that the "10 Commandments" that the stores have now are to be scrapped and replaced with updated and more "professional" ones suited to "the needs of the market". Related to this I have heard talk about the stores receiving codes of conduct for the patrons they have, I have no idea what these will contain or say but i wonder if this is somehow responsible for the the "no hobbying in stores" part of the OP perhaps.

There's some stuff about more regional sales managers in/for the UK too but to all of that.

IMO hardcore vets do not need GW support.

They have the skillz and knowledge to be able to learn rules, create scenarios, build terrain and so on, without needing help from GW.

The key role for GW in helping vets is simply to provide a well written set of rules and timely FAQ updates.

Kilkrazy wrote:IMO hardcore vets do not need GW support.

They have the skillz and knowledge to be able to learn rules, create scenarios, build terrain and so on, without needing help from GW.

The key role for GW in helping vets is simply to provide a well written set of rules and timely FAQ updates.

All very true, but we are also putting the UK gaming style angle with this comment, it seems clear from reading here that the US gamers are far more likely to use the stores to meet and game far more than the UK 'clubs and houses' style amongst older gamers.

If the US GW style is going to change to no hobby gaming instore, I think they should be affording a great deal of help to establishing clubs in the areas. If so, this is an excellent idea since it actually frees the gamers from the oblige to use only GW minis or only play GW games.

"If you love them, let them go"...

davetaylor wrote:Chiming in. I haven't heard anything like this at all from my friends still working for GW (covering a range of positions, from store staff to execs). I typically hobby in the local Battle Bunker every Monday and unless there are "national events" every day, then there'd be an awful lot of wasted space and therefore wasted rent.

There may be some new stores opened that just don't have the gaming/hobby space. I think there's one already like that in the Schaumburg Mall in Illinois, and I know there are stores like that in Japan.

When I worked in retail stores in GW Australia we never allowed pick-up games, ran specific scenarios on Thursday night Games Nights, and you could only sit at the painting table if you were getting a painting lesson from a staff member. I'm not 100% sure if it's the same now (been away for too long) but I do have to say that GW hobbyists played at home or their friend's place or at their local club (usually held in some sort of community hall) and would come into the GW store to pick up things for their army (new models, paints, etc).
In the store that I managed (Sydney City) we had a great existing community and a lot of folks who hadn't seen toy soldiers that came through the doors every day. We'd talk with everyone, learn what was going on around town, then spread the word. We helped connect new recruits with existing clubs, we help new recruits start new clubs, we talked people through building their own tables.

All without needing to have gaming tables and hobby space available for our customers, no matter what level of the hobby.

Amusingly enough, each week we turned over two, sometimes three times what some of today's US GW stores do in a week, and that was 14 years ago. My store was not the only one achieving those numbers, and I know many of my former customers are still in the hobby, because I see them on forums and visiting GW stores whenever I head back to Sydney.

What's my point?

While I haven't heard anything like what the OP heard, if it much of what he said did come to pass it would not be the end of the hobby.

The world is different from what it was 14 years ago. Times change. Not all change is a bad thing, but sometimes it can take time to see the good, in my opinion.

Cheers
Dave

While I don't disagree with your summation Dave, for me, if my local GW goes to that model, I'm out of the hobby. Yeah, there's a local club that I could get in. But they're a tournament focused group that doesn't suit my playstyle and I'm in this primarily to paint which I do at my local GW.

Why? because if I stay home, I'm just going to log in to WoW.

Now granted, there's quite a few people around -here- that would love to see me gone.

I'm supposed to go out to my local shop today for our escalation league, I'm gonna print this up and interrogate our manager.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:IMO hardcore vets do not need GW support.

They have the skillz and knowledge to be able to learn rules, create scenarios, build terrain and so on, without needing help from GW.

The key role for GW in helping vets is simply to provide a well written set of rules and timely FAQ updates.

All very true, but we are also putting the UK gaming style angle with this comment, it seems clear from reading here that the US gamers are far more likely to use the stores to meet and game far more than the UK 'clubs and houses' style amongst older gamers.

If the US GW style is going to change to no hobby gaming instore, I think they should be affording a great deal of help to establishing clubs in the areas. If so, this is an excellent idea since it actually frees the gamers from the oblige to use only GW minis or only play GW games.

"If you love them, let them go"...

except for those of us who only play on a schedule something again to "the day before never."

Playing doesn't do for me. I'm in the hobby to paint. Which I do at my local shop as a reason to get out of the house and away from WoW for a few hours. If not, I'm mean, it's no huge deal. WoW is a lot cheaper than Warhammer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Duncan_Idaho wrote:

Mor important is the fact that Veterans are asked to leave the shop if they show up more than three times without buying anything and are welcome back "if they buy something".
.

I generally buy a paint or something small about every other time I'm at my local store, so that shouldn't be an issue.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:IMO hardcore vets do not need GW support.

They have the skillz and knowledge to be able to learn rules, create scenarios, build terrain and so on, without needing help from GW.

The key role for GW in helping vets is simply to provide a well written set of rules and timely FAQ updates.

All very true, but we are also putting the UK gaming style angle with this comment, it seems clear from reading here that the US gamers are far more likely to use the stores to meet and game far more than the UK 'clubs and houses' style amongst older gamers.

If the US GW style is going to change to no hobby gaming instore, I think they should be affording a great deal of help to establishing clubs in the areas. If so, this is an excellent idea since it actually frees the gamers from the oblige to use only GW minis or only play GW games.

"If you love them, let them go"...

Exactly. Most players use stores as an anchor point for actual gaming. We should remember, when I play comrades, our total distance driven may be on the order of 100 miles or more. If there are no players then there are no sales. I have many many other uses for my money.

Beastajg wrote:I could understand why people would flip out on no gaming in the store . But its the best for the store. Its good that its going to be a full functioning retail store, why?
Because believe it or not when people that come to the malls to hang with their boys or girlfriends and they see a bunch of kids that have no where else to go except stay there and play board games? Believe it or not it does turn people away. As for me I could care less because like, I hope most of people here on this thread do it for a game of thinking and just do while life is full of stress. Now for me there is a libary near where I live at about the distance of the mall. And thats the best place to play a game at a libary and I could explain all the reason why but I beat half of people here could. Majors of the store should find libarys around them and try and set up a commiunty so not all IS LOST!!!!! lol you guys

terrible troll is terrible.

quit being bad.

Thats not trolling, thats expressing a differing opinion.

However, when I played at GW near a mall many moons ago, occasionally the boyfriend/girlfriend criowd would come in. Now at this period of play it was us old farts (well dressed business types). They'd look at the minis, laugh and move on. If GW thinks an empty store with a stressed out redshirt is going to do it then they will have an interesting reality check.

I didn't say it was trolling. I said it was -terrible- trolling. You of all people should know the difference.

But yes, this "business model" (term used very loosely) doesn't make a lot of sense. Especially when it's already known by the DM that my local stores business is driven much more by the veterans than the new kids, most of whom come in once, their mom sees a few price tags, the staff gets the "I'll think about it and come back tomorrow/Saturday" and is never seen again*.

* Because "tomorrow/Saturday" means "the day after never" to the local parents.

You did actually say it was trolling.

terrible troll is terrible.

Quit riding the siderails of flaming.
If you wish to discuss it further, we can take it private to avoid derailing the thread.

It makes sense from a money flow perspective.

You can have more customers if you make more customers.

If your only customers are the ones inside your shop, you're in trouble.

sworth9411 wrote:Here are a few things they want to change;

No more hobbyist gaming in the store (other than national events etc.)
No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon)
No more hobbying in the store
Staff should focus more on brand new clients only
Hobbiyist dont spend money, New clients spend the most amount of money on the hobby so lets focus on new clients

Excellent! This means more people will flock to independant stores instead of wasting ther time at GW stores.

I am glad GW finally came to the realization that the best sevice they can offer is their products. Becuase lets be honest here, if GW do plan on implementing this brand new (one man to a store) sales routine, then it wont be possible to do the above and still be able to run a cash register.

I am being somewhat sarcastic in my post, but I am very genuine when I say I am glad that they are doing this and forcing more customers to seek independent shops. The saying goes "Pay where you play", not "Pay and then get the hell out, thanks for the money suckers".

twistinthunder wrote:

aerethan wrote: 14 year olds have more money for space marines amirite?



I couldn't stand to lug around my paint and supplies to end up trying to paint while some mouth breathing 14 year old looks over my shoulder and asks to touch my toys.

14 year olds dont neccessarily have more money to spend in the hobby.

It was obviously sarcasm. Well played aerethan.
Plus it's a stereotype of 14 year olds, don't let it get you down too much. I've seen it happen way too much
What's worse is the one's with ice cream, you know by the end of the game those Space Marines are going to be covered in it.

malfred wrote:It makes sense from a money flow perspective.

You can have more customers if you make more customers.

If your only customers are the ones inside your shop, you're in trouble.

True, but there's just one thing to remember. If one customer has a good experience with a company, then that's one customer added. However, if one customer has a bad experience then you could possibly lose ten. There's actually no need for them to throw away the older customers, in fact they should try supporting them more and keep the current support for the new customers at the same level. That would be the smart profit increasing way though...



Because that is how economics works, by making new customers but keeping the old one's you're adding to the demand for the product that you're supplying. At the moment GW's products are trying to ignore this basic fact of economics and simply pushing the price up, lowering the demand and increasing their supply; which leads to it devaluing as well. So they can't really afford to brush off the older players and hope everything will work out. Prices will start falling and, perhaps after some more artificial price increases no doubt caused by ignoring this, the stream of new players might dry up. If anything their profits will fall, lowering the prices as they hope to try to sell off more of them; as the demand will increase if that does happen, as it will be closer to the equilibrium.


They're probably looking at this one and interperating it wrong. While it is true that you can increase the price by increasing the demand significantly, you have to actually do it right. Having low advertising and actually relying on veteran players to kind of spread the hobby for free is a terrible terrible marketing strategy that will set itself on fire and jump off the roof of their headquarters. And that's where I began to lose interest in Economics, stuck in the class for another two years I resorted to playing Pok'emon and half listening to what they were talking about. But, I still passed the course with a 70%

I love how your mini-lesson in economics devolved into Pokemon.

All great classes end that way.

Oh, look, from my December 18 lecture, "Read a Book, You Lazy Kids."

malfred wrote:I love how your mini-lesson in economics devolved into Pokemon.

All great classes end that way.

Oh, look, from my December 18 lecture, "Read a Book, You Lazy Kids."

Doesn't it always. If you look at the syllabus for the discussion of War and Peace, you'll see the last line.
Dostoyevsky and Pikachu, Conflicts and similarities in the Modern Age.

n0t_u

saying what I said, but with graphs!!

If I could ask GW senior management one question, it would be 'Why do you think fewer customers are a good thing?'

P.S. If the rationale for this is so that parents won't be put off buying stuff for little Johnny by having geeky looking kids in store, then someone needs to batter the side of GW execs head with a large soggy pike (the fish or the weapon, makes no difference ) while explaining that toy soldiers will never be cool, so there's no need to try!!