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So Before this turns into a flame thread, I would love to keep an open mind and discussion about this possible new plan, I know for a 20 year hobbiyist Im pretty pissed off about what I heard, but then again, I can see the point.

So last week straight from the horses mouth (So Cal District Manger and Area manger) I have heard that many of the retail stores will have a brand new business model.

Here are a few things they want to change;

No more hobbyist gaming in the store (other than national events etc.)
No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon)
No more hobbying in the store
Staff should focus more on brand new clients only
Hobbiyist dont spend money, New clients spend the most amount of money on the hobby so lets focus on new clients

All of this seems quite bizzare as the tentative location for the new Glendale store is hidden in a strip mall with zero visibility and traffic.....seems to be a little hypocritical to me (but they havent moved yet so maybe it will be somewhere awesome who knows....)

I am not jumping to conclusions, but I know several hobby managers from around the country and when I asked them what they had heard, they are hearing the same type of pep talks so this seems like a fairly accurate rumor and I am hopeful that it works out for GW.

Lets face the facts this is an extremely niche hobby that does not appeal to everyone, why would GW intentionally alienate its hobbiyists and limit their game expierience in the store? This is kind of the vibe I am getting from this plan, and although it may work to get a stream of new hobbiyists in the door, will it be enough to keep them past their initial purchase without a large web of hobbiyists that meet up and play at the stores?

I for one never was a basement / home hobbyist and have always played strictly at stores, I also spend absurd amounts of money at GW (according to my taxes almost $4000 in 2009), I am quite upset that it could be harder to play at the stores.

It seems their investors want to see GW make more money, myself having years of retail and manafacturing expierience have one word for them....China.

I am curious to here your what you think of this rumor, so please no one stupid answers of "That Sucks, Boo all NoObs...." I would like to hear well educated opinions.

On a side note anyone notice the LA Bunker stopped stocking forgeworld? There goes my only reason for making the drive down to westminster....

On one hand I don't like hearing this if it's true.
As someone with a significant amount of time and money invested in this hobby it angers me to think that we (the dedicated gamers) are getting pushed aside for the kids and people that accidentally walk into a GW thinking it sells video games.

But on the other hand if GW as a company seems to think this is the best move for them to continue making and selling they're products then I have no choice but to accept it. Will it make me upset? Yes. If there was another gaming company with the same market saturation that GW has would i switch to them? Yes.
But until that happens I'll still enjoy my hobby no matter what GW does.

]sworth9411 wrote:No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon)

I can't see this. In the GW stores I've been too (admittedly not as many in the US as the UK) store demo games got people interested in buying the core box set to play, but pick up games got new players in picking up fully fleshed out ARMIES (more $$$!) to play the game with. It seems a backwards looking decision if there's any truth to it.

I'm kinda ok with this as long as they keep increasing company product support for independent retailers.
Though keep in mind I don't and never have played at a GW store.

From what I've heard from other people I have spoken to, the GW stores tend to be woeful places to get games going compare to IRs.

Also, GW has used this business model since the mid-90s (since 2nd ed Wh40k), and they caught a lot of flak from people back then.
They treated the independent retailers very poorly at that point, their support is better now. (but no-where near what it was in the late 80s / early 90s)

I figure if done properly this sort of model could benefit IRs in that experienced players will leave the customer base of the GW specific stores and 'move into' the IRs customer base.

mark my words....It's going to turn into a flame thread.

Staff should focus more on brand new clients only

This one leapt up at me as being totally senseless (yeah, I know,GW,but bear with me) i wonder if this was said and how it was said. Once they have brought they are, by definition, no longer new business/new clients.

No more hobbying in the store
clarify please ?

Haven't heard anything about this from friends that work at GW stores. Might be something new, or might be some stuff getting passed down the lane and garbled.

For a long time they've had some pretty agressive programming and events scheduled for each store. All the stores run the same events, managers don't schedule a lot of their own. Some of those items might come from this, although its old. Theres also the general move to smaller shops with one person on staff most of the time, which would cut out a few things.

But gaming in the stores, painting, and hobbying are pretty essential to the hobby. So I don't see those going away.

And we have a new head guy in the US as of this weekend, so we'll be seeing what he throws on the table soon.

All the bunkers have quit stocking Forgeword, happend a while ago.

No more hobbyist gaming in the store (other than national events etc.)

Why not? GW already alienates us veterans anyway. 14 year olds have more money for space marines amirite?

No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon)

I'm assuming you mean pick up games, meaning random people who happen to be there decide to play. How often does this happen anyway?

No more hobbying in the store

I couldn't stand to lug around my paint and supplies to end up trying to paint while some mouth breathing 14 year old looks over my shoulder and asks to touch my toys.

Staff should focus more on brand new clients only

This I would see as a plus, as once they learned I've been doing this for 10 years they would leave me the feth alone. NO YOU CANNOT HELP ME FIND ANYTHING!!!

Hobbiyist dont spend money, New clients spend the most amount of money on the hobby so lets focus on new clients

I don't spend money? I've spent in excess of $5000 over 10 years on this hobby. That amounts to $500 a year which is about the same as that "new" client in his first year. Newbies aren't going out and buying multiple armies all at once. Meanwhile I'm busy collecting 3 armies currently, 2 for myself and 1 for my wife.


GW is the devil.

Staff should focus more on brand new clients only

I have never seen a GW with enough customers in it at one time that determining who the employees should market their product to requires any sort of guidance.

They'll focus on every client who comes in. This is silly.

aerethan wrote:[...] while some mouth breathing 14 year old looks over my shoulder and asks to touch my toys.

Damn those 14-year-olds, how dare they breath through their mouths?!

I find this strange; there must be a financial motivator behind the change? Are GW store managers complaining that there is not enough display space for the quantity of product? Are they seeing significant theft of product, so much so that they feel the staff cannot properly watch its customers with a game in progress? I just don’t see the logic....

Having said that I have never played any games in a store location, so this is no loss to me.

Actually this is similar to things I heard about 2 years ago so I am not sure how much of this is actually going to become fact. I do know that they are trying to move more towards the English buisness model (which will doubtfully work here since we dont walk everywhere and we are not contained communities). Personally I stopped playing at GW stores long ago but to have experienced players in the store is critical to get new people into the store.

Fishboy wrote: to have experienced players in the store is critical to get new people into the store.

But aren't all red shirts experienced players?!

That can not be accurate, as Jammesonian said any retail store that ignores clients that walk into in the door are committing suicide.

I used to game at the LA Battle Bunker all the time and it was a fantastic place to game and it was also one of the most successful GW retail stores in the nation. It was that way because the manager put his heart and soul into creating a thriving community of gamers.

This is bogus, or someone has spun it to the point that it doesn't reflect the facts. Perhaps the head honchos have said focus on brining more new gamers into the fold, but I highly doubt they will actively ignore any potential customers or stop allowing people to game in store, as that would be utterly foolish.

I have noticed some of these things as well, and being in so-cal as well, i do know what you are talking about. I have also once worn the 'red shirt' so i know how GW works behind doors a bit so ill toss my 2 cents on each point

No more hobbyist gaming in the store (other than national events etc.)
No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon):
these two fall under the same thing. GW is going to start pushing for sign ups and to call ahead and reserve tables ( even more so in stores with 2-3 tables, which is most of the so-cal stores). Pick up games are still doable if the store is slow.

No more hobbying in the store:
This one i dont see being true. What are they gonna do with those painting tables then? The only thing from this is if the academy is going on, they get priority


Staff should focus more on brand new clients only
Hobbiyist dont spend money, New clients spend the most amount of money on the hobby so lets focus on new clients
these two once again fall in the same thinking. GW has for some time thought this way, and it is mostly true. New customers tend to spend around $500.00+ in the first few months, the average hobbyist does not, they maybe spend $100.00.

None of this news is really new, its the same stuff they have been saying for years just slightly different, including "glendale is moving". I think ive heard glendale is closing 5 times, granted i will say this year it looks like it just might actually happen. As for hearing this from the "horse", that position has changed a few times in the last few years, so i dont think even GW knows whats really going on.

sworth9411 wrote:Here are a few things they want to change;

No more hobbyist gaming in the store (other than national events etc.)
No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon)
No more hobbying in the store
Staff should focus more on brand new clients only
Hobbiyist dont spend money, New clients spend the most amount of money on the hobby so lets focus on new clients

Without commenting on the validity of this rumor in the sense of whether your source was honest or not, I can't really see them going for this. What's suggested here means no more gaming tables other than for demos, no more painting tables other than for intros, heck, you could probably let one in every three Redshirts go as well since they're only there to sell stuff now. Staff focusing on a specific demographic makes little sense, jamsessionein is right, there's never enough people at the store for there to be any need to be picky.

Also, if they want to stop people from playing at games nights, that'll ultimately mean some people will be bereft of the opportunity to play at all, as well as the opportunity to meet, network and socialize with other gamers.

I have no info on this but if GW did their research and they think this will work then their research would be entirely bass ackwards to every other company I have experience with.

Every other business, that isn't a 100% retail mall or trend store, gets its main profit from the pre-existing customer (installed base or invested base). Now GW is becoming more retail but still after the initial sale to any noobie the hobby is built on community. All you have to do is be in a GW store on a quiet day when a kid comes in and the sales guy goes through the black reach demo in an empty store to get a feel for what this business model will lead to.

When a noob comes in and sees two or three tables going and a few hobbyists at the paint table the message is so much stronger. First, they are not alone – here are other people who do this. Second, the other games have more figs than the black reach demo – a huge part of this hobby is the delusion that someday you are going to have vast armies of figures. Third, If I can do my hobbying/building/painting at GW I don't have to wait for my dad to clear space in the garage or some other person to find time to help me.

Now in my area there is a Mall GW and this policy would make sense there. There really isn't room, one game table other than the demo table and a four chair kid-sized paint desk. So when this store has veteran players gaming it is actually a bit too cramped and I don't even like to drop in to buy paint on the weekend when there are 4 to 6 kids playing on that one table while mommie shops. They already encourage their regulars to visit the other GWs in the area for the hobby and game aspect. They know, if it is convenient to where you live, that you will still drop in and buy product but otherwise it is really geared to introductory gamers that wander in as mall foot traffic.

And the pre-existing customer costs nothing to market to. So zero out-reach marketing and zero-effort in making sales for the staff (and most of us would prefer the staff not try and SELL us anything). The pre-existing customer is more likely to buy products that have a higher mark-up or return on investment – raise your hand if you have a BRB and four or more codex. The pre-existing customer is the one buying the older models that have already paid for their initial costs – you have to play a bit before you realize that those ugly, expensive chaos obliterators have game value. The noobies buy almost exclusively the newer kits – and it isn't like pre-existing customer do not buy any of those.

So, unless your connection was talking about the "retail" GW mall outlets I don't see this being a realistic.

aerethan wrote: 14 year olds have more money for space marines amirite?



I couldn't stand to lug around my paint and supplies to end up trying to paint while some mouth breathing 14 year old looks over my shoulder and asks to touch my toys.

14 year olds dont neccessarily have more money to spend in the hobby.

OH PLEASEEE LET ME SEE YOUR AWESOME SPACE DUDEEEESSSS! PLEASEEEE!, nope i dont act like that not many 14 year old in the uk do, so unless they're really different then i suggest you dont bash us, i'm quite experienced and was mistaken for someone old and wise enough to go to veterans night (in the uk on thursdays you can go down 6-10 (i think) and play with anyone that 16+ years old.

I was going to say you're nuts, but after seeing that you spend $4000 a year on GW stuff, it'd be redundant.

I don't mind the 14 year old players. They generally don't interrupt games to ask slowed questions.

It's the 14 year old's that GW wants to play, who don't understand personal space and gaming etiquette.

There are a scant few well behaved 14 years in game stores, at least where I'm at.

John wrote:I was going to say you're nuts, but after seeing that you spend $4000 a year on GW stuff, it'd be redundant.

I don't spend $4k a year. Good Lord no. It's usually a healthy $500, which isn't too bad for an annual investment into a hobby.

Pika_power wrote:

aerethan wrote:[...] while some mouth breathing 14 year old looks over my shoulder and asks to touch my toys.

Damn those 14-year-olds, how dare they breath through their mouths?!

ok that is sigged my friend.

Looks like GW is moving towards a smaller-footprint store model with a focus on actual store retailing, rather than being a hobby hangout.

Good thing I don't game at the mall...

sworth9411 wrote:
No pick me up games in the store (I.E. Meetups are allowed but Frown upon)

As someone who's only LGS is owned and operated by a complete and total d-bag, I pray to God this isn't true.

With only the information that you have here?


I don't see this store lasting very long, or making enough money to keep the lights on.

As a matter of fact, this is a recipe for disaster. Who did they get this type of buisness model from, Mr. Magoo?

With the way things are going in the economy, this is not the way to even get someone in the door.


The biggest issue on deck is that GW products are nich to begin with, and to self alienate themselves from the customer, someone should really tell them to stop before they start down this road to ruin. SO... Let me see how this works.

1. I concentrate on getting people INTO the hobby, but... don't do anything to keep them?

2. With the way that people act in these stores already when you see thier faces when little johnny tells mommy dearest that this Battalion costs 89 bucks, and you see the color drain from someones face as they take it out of johnnys mitts and put it back with a "Thats nice, dear... Lets go get you some shoes..."
This will last about five minutes.

3. SO I don't have anything to get people into the store, anything to get someone to come back, and on top of all of that, I do not gather a solid following to generate intetest and bring in new people?

GW can bite it.

Go to your Local Gaming stores and run the GW shops out of town on a rail. Give someone who actually cares about your local community then some douche who just rolls in with a fancy specialty store that doesn't give you an incentive to even walk in the door.


Seriously, GW. April is a couple of months off. Its a little early for jokes.

Focus for staff is always on bringing in and retaining new customers. However, having a hobby community with veterans in it has proven a winning strategy for helping novices and getting them to keep coming back for people to game with, help them with the hobby, etc. If they push their own community out the door I foresee disaster for GW and our hobby in the US at least.

I can't see this happening. I can see them focusing on new players instead of veteran players from a sales standpoint (a veteran player will likely already know what they want) but everything else sounds like bull honkey.

Does Hobbyists refer to a certain type of player, as in, someone over the age of 20, something like that? If so, they could be trying to keep a particular type of person out, to try and draw in newer players of a different sort. For instance, if you were a 30 year old man, and you walked into a GW where there were a bunch of 8 - 12 year olds playing, you'd probably be less inclined to want to hang out there, as you would if it was people your age or perhaps slightly younger. Kids on the other hand, might be ok going to a place where older people hang out, but there parents might not want them there. Now of course, if GW stores were full of girls in their early 20s, everyone would want to hang out there. But since GW probably knows that this particular demographic isn't going to easily embrace wargaming, I'm guessing this is just a way of getting the HUGE nerds who hang out at GW stores and prattle on endlessly about rules and models and prices, then go home and buy everythign for 20% off online, out of the stores.

My guess, is they're trying not to scare off one (or multiple) demographics with having big nerds in the store, and trying to make it more accessable to 'normal' (average, easily scared by change,boring, don't want to eat pizza for more that one meal a day) customers. And, I think that's fine, for those little GW stores that exist in malls, and don't really have much space for doing anything in there.

Now, Battlebunkers, and larger stores should be an exception. These should be 'The place' for everything GW, for everyone. Gaming, painting, shooting the breeze, these should be a safe haven for any and all fans of the hobby.

And I concur with you sworth9411, if they don't stock forgeworld at the battle bunker anymore, I really don't see the need to bust my ass and drive an hour down there. Unless they have a mercenaries market again.

Brother SRM wrote:I can't see this happening. I can see them focusing on new players instead of veteran players from a sales standpoint (a veteran player will likely already know what they want) but everything else sounds like bull honkey.

How is that any different from how it is now? For as long as I can remember GW has focused on new players at the expense of the veteran players, it just seems like it has gotten worse over the last couple of years because the GW support for veterans has dried up. They have no interest in working out a business model which involves keeping people in the hobby and providing a steady revenue stream over 10+ years. They just grab the new customer, squeeze them (or at least there parents) dry and then move on to the next one.

I think that someone confused the one man store concept that was discussed in the latest GW´s shareholder report with a blanket policy for all the stores along the way.

If not and this info is true, good luck sustaining you market share GW. One of the benefits of the instore gaming is that the client is constantly exposed to the game. He sees that he is not the only one, meets people that show him new figures, he is egged to paint and buy more for the "perfect" army... if gaming is remuved all this motivators are lost and then GWs risks losing farther sales from the client, after all if you are happy playing the basic AoBR with your buddy at home why buying all those expensive tanks and nobs?

M.

Chiming in. I haven't heard anything like this at all from my friends still working for GW (covering a range of positions, from store staff to execs). I typically hobby in the local Battle Bunker every Monday and unless there are "national events" every day, then there'd be an awful lot of wasted space and therefore wasted rent.

There may be some new stores opened that just don't have the gaming/hobby space. I think there's one already like that in the Schaumburg Mall in Illinois, and I know there are stores like that in Japan.

When I worked in retail stores in GW Australia we never allowed pick-up games, ran specific scenarios on Thursday night Games Nights, and you could only sit at the painting table if you were getting a painting lesson from a staff member. I'm not 100% sure if it's the same now (been away for too long) but I do have to say that GW hobbyists played at home or their friend's place or at their local club (usually held in some sort of community hall) and would come into the GW store to pick up things for their army (new models, paints, etc).
In the store that I managed (Sydney City) we had a great existing community and a lot of folks who hadn't seen toy soldiers that came through the doors every day. We'd talk with everyone, learn what was going on around town, then spread the word. We helped connect new recruits with existing clubs, we help new recruits start new clubs, we talked people through building their own tables.

All without needing to have gaming tables and hobby space available for our customers, no matter what level of the hobby.

Amusingly enough, each week we turned over two, sometimes three times what some of today's US GW stores do in a week, and that was 14 years ago. My store was not the only one achieving those numbers, and I know many of my former customers are still in the hobby, because I see them on forums and visiting GW stores whenever I head back to Sydney.

What's my point?

While I haven't heard anything like what the OP heard, if it much of what he said did come to pass it would not be the end of the hobby.

The world is different from what it was 14 years ago. Times change. Not all change is a bad thing, but sometimes it can take time to see the good, in my opinion.

Cheers
Dave